It's the Journey, Not the Destination - (not what you think this thread is about)

[isshinryuronin]

The journey is more important than the destination. No, I'm not talking about your life's journey thru the exploration of TMA. The subject is your technique's journey.

You have a book on kata. There are a series of 58 sequential photos showing the performer in various positions. You see the performer in a punch position, then a high block position, then an extended spear hand, then in the next photo he is facing the opposite direction in a low block position, and so on. You spend hours looking at these photos practicing each move till you can faithfully reproduce and memorize each and every position of hands and feet. You've learned the kata! But don't be too happy. All you've done is learn how to look when in a certain static position: left or right stance, posture, arm angle, etc. Your kata is practically useless.

Let's zero in on the photo showing a clenched fist (vertical) at the end of an outstretched arm. Even without a caption identifying the technique as a punch you've probably surmised as much. I mean, you've got eyes, right? Yes, you do have eyes. No, it doesn't necessarily mean you're right. By just looking at the photo, isn't it possible that a spinning backfist has just been executed? Extrapolate this throughout the whole kata - you really don't know what the heck is going on. It's like reading or hearing a story, full of tragedy, only to find out it's really a comedy - you just didn't get the jokes!

Sure, some interim photos would be a big help, a video better still. But even then, we may miss the joke (and misunderstand the kata). MAIN POINT: It's not the static end position (destination) of a technique that tells the story. It's the kinetic motion (journey) of how it gets there. This is where most all the work is done. What the technique is doing while in motion gives it meaning, not what it looks like after completion. In other words, application. On a technique's journey from guard to ending position it can do many things: Hit one target before hitting another, sweep an area, redirect an attack or guard, even block or punch. It may accomplish all these while on its way.

This is one of the challenges in figuring out the bunkai of kata. There are multiple possibilities and interpretations. Additionally, some jokes' humor is dry and hard to see or are dependent on understanding a cultural reference or slang. "I don't get it," is a phrase we hear in regard to both jokes and kata.

 

[isshinryuronin]

The journey is more important than the destination. No, I'm not talking about your life's journey thru the exploration of TMA. The subject is your technique's journey.

You have a book on kata. There are a series of 58 sequential photos showing the performer in various positions. You see the performer in a punch position, then a high block position, then an extended spear hand, then in the next photo he is facing the opposite direction in a low block position, and so on. You spend hours looking at these photos practicing each move till you can faithfully reproduce and memorize each and every position of hands and feet. You've learned the kata! But don't be too happy. All you've done is learn how to look when in a certain static position: left or right stance, posture, arm angle, etc. Your kata is practically useless.

Let's zero in on the photo showing a clenched fist (vertical) at the end of an outstretched arm. Even without a caption identifying the technique as a punch you've probably surmised as much. I mean, you've got eyes, right? Yes, you do have eyes. No, it doesn't necessarily mean you're right. By just looking at the photo, isn't it possible that a spinning backfist has just been executed? Extrapolate this throughout the whole kata - you really don't know what the heck is going on. It's like reading or hearing a story, full of tragedy, only to find out it's really a comedy - you just didn't get the jokes!

Sure, some interim photos would be a big help, a video better still. But even then, we may miss the joke (and misunderstand the kata). MAIN POINT: It's not the static end position (destination) of a technique that tells the story. It's the kinetic motion (journey) of how it gets there. This is where most all the work is done. What the technique is doing while in motion gives it meaning, not what it looks like after completion. In other words, application. On a technique's journey from guard to ending position it can do many things: Hit one target before hitting another, sweep an area, redirect an attack or guard, even block or punch. It may accomplish all these while on its way.

This is one of the challenges in figuring out the bunkai of kata. There are multiple possibilities and interpretations. Additionally, some jokes' humor is dry and hard to see or are dependent on understanding a cultural reference or slang. "I don't get it," is a phrase we hear in regard to both jokes and kata.

This subject is further explored in relation to stances in the 'Value of upper-level forms" thread, post #38.

 

[Holmejr]

right, the balance, posturing, weight transfer, etc. are the mechanics that give the final movement meaning. A punch is simply not just a punch.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The journey is more important than the destination.

Agree! How to create an opportunity for your technique can be more important that your technique itself.

 

[Haruhiko]

Kata in my schools are assuming a situation, and under the assumption of those situations, are the necessary kamae in anticipation of the opponent(s)' strikes (in my case sword strikes).

Musō Shinden-Ryū's / Musō Jikiden Eishin-Ryū's founder, Hayashizake Jinsuke, developed iai forms in the quest to almost obsessively anticipate any situation in which he could assassinate his father's killer. Under the house, in a public crowd, through passing a gate... all situations he thought he might encounter this man in what I can only describe as a lifelong journey of revenge. (I might be exaggerating, but that's the jist, and I'm new to the school).

Hyōhō Niten Ichi-Ryū, interestingly, has a developed curriculum that over time went from 5 nito forms, to a broader curriculum including ito forms for both long sword and short sword, as well as staff. Why didn't Musashi include these in his seminal writings? His students already had those fundamental forms, and he only transmitted the nito forms to consolidate what was already in "oral transmission". After his passing, his successors of the school included those fundamentals as a means to ensure undiluted transmission of the ryū of which they were already familiar with - to newer generations. (Again, I may be off here as I'm new to this school as well.)

I guess my point is that the kata tell a story, and that story helps inform me of my mindset and intention. It also tells me what I need to work on, like stretching muscle groups to properly posture myself. And it reminds me that, especially in older arts, the kata are there for a very good reason. The reasons are not to train the student explicitly.

 

[HighKick]

The journey is more important than the destination. No, I'm not talking about your life's journey thru the exploration of TMA. The subject is your technique's journey.

You have a book on kata. There are a series of 58 sequential photos showing the performer in various positions. You see the performer in a punch position, then a high block position, then an extended spear hand, then in the next photo he is facing the opposite direction in a low block position, and so on. You spend hours looking at these photos practicing each move till you can faithfully reproduce and memorize each and every position of hands and feet. You've learned the kata! But don't be too happy. All you've done is learn how to look when in a certain static position: left or right stance, posture, arm angle, etc. Your kata is practically useless.

Let's zero in on the photo showing a clenched fist (vertical) at the end of an outstretched arm. Even without a caption identifying the technique as a punch you've probably surmised as much. I mean, you've got eyes, right? Yes, you do have eyes. No, it doesn't necessarily mean you're right. By just looking at the photo, isn't it possible that a spinning backfist has just been executed? Extrapolate this throughout the whole kata - you really don't know what the heck is going on. It's like reading or hearing a story, full of tragedy, only to find out it's really a comedy - you just didn't get the jokes!

Sure, some interim photos would be a big help, a video better still. But even then, we may miss the joke (and misunderstand the kata). MAIN POINT: It's not the static end position (destination) of a technique that tells the story. It's the kinetic motion (journey) of how it gets there. This is where most all the work is done. What the technique is doing while in motion gives it meaning, not what it looks like after completion. In other words, application. On a technique's journey from guard to ending position it can do many things: Hit one target before hitting another, sweep an area, redirect an attack or guard, even block or punch. It may accomplish all these while on its way.

This is one of the challenges in figuring out the bunkai of kata. There are multiple possibilities and interpretations. Additionally, some jokes' humor is dry and hard to see or are dependent on understanding a cultural reference or slang. "I don't get it," is a phrase we hear in regard to both jokes and kata.

To me, this post speaks larger to the fact that you just cannot learn martial arts from a book.

 

[Haruhiko]

To me, this post speaks larger to the fact that you just cannot learn martial arts from a book.

To me, no one should.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

To me, this post speaks larger to the fact that you just cannot learn martial arts from a book.

Some techniques are simple and straight forward. I believe people can learn this technique from a book.

 

[Krisxylove]

It's the kinetic motion (journey) of how it gets there. This is where most all the work is done. What the technique is doing while in motion gives it meaning

I'd like to share some writing that I like a lot. It is supposedly from Shaolin, but it's hard to know what is real and what is fake especially these days. I don't think that taichi was meant to only be practiced slowly. I think that it was meant to pull back a little from the max effort style training and to shift focus on what's happening structurally inside the body. Sometimes breaking down movements into its smaller parts and finding where muscles in your body are over active and under active. Where there are misalignment issues. As meditative style training, the focus is to be more loose while developing the intermuscular coordination to move more quickly and gracefully while preventing too much strain anywhere in the body. Then over time speed/force/effort is increased to what can be described as light and heavy, soft and hard, firm and flexible, ect. Anyway here is the Quote supposedly from Shaolin that I think is brilliant:

To be as Graceful as a Cat.
To be as Aggressive as the Tiger.
To Step like a Dragon.
To Act like a Lightning Stroke.
To Shout like Thunder.
To Move like a Gust of Wind.
To Stay like a Nail.
To be as Heavy as a Mountain.
To be as Light as Goose Down.
To be Soft as Cotton Wool.
As Hard as Iron.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I don't think that taichi was meant to only be practiced slowly.

From what I've read it was originally an effective martial art but around 1600 Taoist philosophy took a greater hold over it, adding more flow, softness and meditative aspect, slowing the speed. Like karate, it's likely some schools retained the original style to a greater or lesser extent. And again, like karate, in more recent times elements of the original style have been re-introduced. There are now schools that will teach "old people" tai chi and others that teach combat tai chi. Some may teach both but keep the combat form more restrictive. These days one finds few set rules in MA.

I'm no CMA expert but the above seem likely possibilities based on the few books I've read and knowledge of karate history. Would be interested in what our CMA experts think.

 

[Krisxylove]

From what I've read it was originally an effective martial art but around 1600 Taoist philosophy took a greater hold over it, adding more flow, softness and meditative aspect, slowing the speed. Like karate, it's likely some schools retained the original style to a greater or lesser extent. And again, like karate, in more recent times elements of the original style have been re-introduced. There are now schools that will teach "old people" tai chi and others that teach combat tai chi. Some may teach both but keep the combat form more restrictive. These days one finds few set rules in MA.

I'm no CMA expert but the above seem likely possibilities based on the few books I've read and knowledge of karate history. Would be interested in what our CMA experts think.

I would like to see what the CMA experts here think as well. I think the concept of internal training/meditative training/Qi Gong that is merged and integrated with the forms are not home to Shaolin. I think that it is mentioned and practiced in martial arts all over time and space including of course the Japanese methods. My statement I guess is that Taichi might not only be a form or a style, but a larger concept. For example I practice Luohanquan as demonstrated by Monk Zhang Shi Jie and his lineage. I can practice this form with all of my effort where anyone would say it is clearly an external form. Then I can turn around and practice it slowly, softly and indistinguishable from a taichi form. What makes my training internal or external is where I hold my focus. So to go back to your point with developing the kinetic motion of a kata, the process of refining it into a an expression that is both quick and heavy for example in itself is internal training. The same as the meaning and purpose for Taichi, in my opinion of course.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I think the concept of internal training/meditative training/Qi Gong that is merged and integrated with the forms are not home to Shaolin. I think that it is mentioned and practiced in martial arts all over time and space including of course the Japanese methods.

I think that it's part of the Oriental ethos. East and West are greatly divided by geography and have evolved in different ways, each one having their unique take on the world. Their style of writing, music and painting reflect this. While China, Okinawa and Japan each have their own culture (and MA) there are threads they have in common.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The journey is more important than the destination. No, I'm not talking about your life's journey thru the exploration of TMA. The subject is your technique's journey.

You have a book on kata. There are a series of 58 sequential photos showing the performer in various positions. You see the performer in a punch position, then a high block position, then an extended spear hand, then in the next photo he is facing the opposite direction in a low block position, and so on. You spend hours looking at these photos practicing each move till you can faithfully reproduce and memorize each and every position of hands and feet. You've learned the kata! But don't be too happy. All you've done is learn how to look when in a certain static position: left or right stance, posture, arm angle, etc. Your kata is practically useless.

Let's zero in on the photo showing a clenched fist (vertical) at the end of an outstretched arm. Even without a caption identifying the technique as a punch you've probably surmised as much. I mean, you've got eyes, right? Yes, you do have eyes. No, it doesn't necessarily mean you're right. By just looking at the photo, isn't it possible that a spinning backfist has just been executed? Extrapolate this throughout the whole kata - you really don't know what the heck is going on. It's like reading or hearing a story, full of tragedy, only to find out it's really a comedy - you just didn't get the jokes!

Sure, some interim photos would be a big help, a video better still. But even then, we may miss the joke (and misunderstand the kata). MAIN POINT: It's not the static end position (destination) of a technique that tells the story. It's the kinetic motion (journey) of how it gets there. This is where most all the work is done. What the technique is doing while in motion gives it meaning, not what it looks like after completion. In other words, application. On a technique's journey from guard to ending position it can do many things: Hit one target before hitting another, sweep an area, redirect an attack or guard, even block or punch. It may accomplish all these while on its way.

This is one of the challenges in figuring out the bunkai of kata. There are multiple possibilities and interpretations. Additionally, some jokes' humor is dry and hard to see or are dependent on understanding a cultural reference or slang. "I don't get it," is a phrase we hear in regard to both jokes and kata.

That's an interesting way to look at it.

 

[Tigerwarrior]

The journey is more important than the destination. No, I'm not talking about your life's journey thru the exploration of TMA. The subject is your technique's journey.

You have a book on kata. There are a series of 58 sequential photos showing the performer in various positions. You see the performer in a punch position, then a high block position, then an extended spear hand, then in the next photo he is facing the opposite direction in a low block position, and so on. You spend hours looking at these photos practicing each move till you can faithfully reproduce and memorize each and every position of hands and feet. You've learned the kata! But don't be too happy. All you've done is learn how to look when in a certain static position: left or right stance, posture, arm angle, etc. Your kata is practically useless.

Let's zero in on the photo showing a clenched fist (vertical) at the end of an outstretched arm. Even without a caption identifying the technique as a punch you've probably surmised as much. I mean, you've got eyes, right? Yes, you do have eyes. No, it doesn't necessarily mean you're right. By just looking at the photo, isn't it possible that a spinning backfist has just been executed? Extrapolate this throughout the whole kata - you really don't know what the heck is going on. It's like reading or hearing a story, full of tragedy, only to find out it's really a comedy - you just didn't get the jokes!

Sure, some interim photos would be a big help, a video better still. But even then, we may miss the joke (and misunderstand the kata). MAIN POINT: It's not the static end position (destination) of a technique that tells the story. It's the kinetic motion (journey) of how it gets there. This is where most all the work is done. What the technique is doing while in motion gives it meaning, not what it looks like after completion. In other words, application. On a technique's journey from guard to ending position it can do many things: Hit one target before hitting another, sweep an area, redirect an attack or guard, even block or punch. It may accomplish all these while on its way.

This is one of the challenges in figuring out the bunkai of kata. There are multiple possibilities and interpretations. Additionally, some jokes' humor is dry and hard to see or are dependent on understanding a cultural reference or slang. "I don't get it," is a phrase we hear in regard to both jokes and kata.

This is the problem with learning from books. Most ma books suck for learning techniques. I've only seen a few that do a good job, but those are rare. I'm a visual learner but it's even hard for me sometimes when it comes to forms or katas. For the exact reason you stated, it's the movements that lead up to the technique that they miss. I was doing a form today, and if this particular form was in a book 9 out of 10 people would screw it up. I'm a visual learner and screwed it up a bit and I was using video. My instructor pointed out like 1 or 2 particular things that weren't totally wrong but needed some fine tuning. Like a double palms strike to the ribs, we'll I was striking straight on to the ribs, but it actually calls for a specific angle. So yeah, even us visual learners find this hard.

 

[windwalker099]

'


good thread

 

[windwalker099]

The subject is your technique's journey.

In the taiji world, it is said:

"From outside to inside / from inside to outside."

This means that the inner core components must be developed first through correct outer alignments. Once the outer alignments are established, the inner alignments can then influence and correct the movements at a deeper level