ITF v. WTF

[cali_tkdbruin]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis

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My opinion is that martial arts (including TKD) is about combat and street defence first and the last thing is should be concerned with is sport and competing... but there are many instructors that feel differently.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

I agree with you 100% on that thought Mr. Mavis. Self-defense should be the top priority in martial arts instruction, and competition should be secondary. I mean that's the only reason why I took up the study of a MA... :asian:

 

[Klondike93]

Actually your bringing up the North Koreans has reminded me of why it happened (or at least what I was told). When the Gen. went to North Korea to spread TKD there were quite a few of his high black belts that didn't like it. I believe that's when the WTF was formed, from these black belts and the help of the Korean govt. That's pretty much the story I was told by some in the USTF so I don't know if it's true or not, but it sounds plausible.

 

[Damian Mavis]

I don't know about some black belts having anything to do with it. It was purely a political move by the South Korean gov. They booted him out and formed a new federation and asked for everyone allegiance.

Truth is.... obviously Gen Choi always did harbor love for North Korea so maybe he deserved to get booted. I know that sounds harsh but he did land up trying to give the whole ITF to North Korea on his death bed now didn't he? Luckily North Korea only got a third.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis
Glad2bhere: ITF IS NOT AFFILIATED OR CONTROLLED BY NORTH KOREA! heh call me a commie scumbag one more time and by geeze I'll...! haha There are 3 ITF's, one of which is under the despicable regime of North Korea and I have a hard time understanding the sick twisted bastards that think this is ok. The other 2 broke off because they didn't want anything to do with them, one before it happened (because we knew it was coming) and one when it happened (Gen. Choi's death) and the proof was finally laid out in front of them although I know damn well they knew it was coming too.

Klondike: I don't know all the reasons but here are a few. When Gen Choi was kicked out of Korea many of the ITF Korean masters that had moved around the world to teach ITF TKD were told to go back and learn the new WTF patterns and go under the WTF. Why many of them did I'm not sure but we were always told they had families in Korea that would be persecuted if they did not... but there is a very good chance that was propaganda. Another reason is Korea had the power and money to spread TKD much more effectively than Gen Choi who was residing in Canada. They put Masters all over the world opening schools who in turn pumped out masters to open more schools. ITF did the same thing but on a much smaller scale. After 30 years WTF is humungous and ITF grew too but not nearly as much. Like I said there might be other reaons but I'm not sure.

My opinion is that martial arts (including TKD) is about combat and street defence first and the last thing is should be concerned with is sport and competing... but there are many instructors that feel differently.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

Mr. Mavis,

Based on what I've seen with the ITF since I've been with them(1988), they seem to be more concerned with tournaments, and have shown next to nothing to "Self Defense" in practical aspects. I could be wrong. Tell me what you've seen.

Thanks:asian:

 

[Damian Mavis]

I have visited many ITF schools and it's pretty up in the air as to what is going on in each school or group of schools (that go under one head instructors ideals). Some schools are all about sport, some are very traditional and some (like mine) are about street defence with everything else (including patterns) a far second. One thing I've realised after visiting many WTF and ITF schools is you never know what youre going to see sometimes. A few schools in both were straight up cardio kickboxing in uniform! And some were very hardcore and traditional like the good ol days. I've come to realise that being part of a federation does not insure unanimous training methods and ideals across the board.

My students almost never compete and when they do it's either for fun (inschool tournament) or for stress management experience (learning to stay calm under pressure and execute your techniques properly under duress). But they rarely do either of those at all.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Damian:

"......Glad2bhere: ITF IS NOT AFFILIATED OR CONTROLLED BY NORTH KOREA! heh call me a commie scumbag one more time and by geeze I'll...! haha There are 3 ITF's, one of which is under the despicable regime of North Korea and I have a hard time understanding the sick twisted bastards that think this is ok. The other 2 broke off because they didn't want anything to do with them, one before it happened (because we knew it was coming) and one when it happened (Gen. Choi's death) and the proof was finally laid out in front of them although I know damn well they knew it was coming too......"

I know what you mean. Its hard not to get those labels flying back and forth! For myself I work to take a little bit different tack.

The horrors of the administration in North Korea are known to everyone who is plugged into modern media, and I am sure God has reserved a special corner of Hell for the people responsible for bringing such suffering to a people who have known so much suffering throughout their existence. For, myself, I am very sensitive to the nature of Korean martial science and martial culture, and while I don't train in TKD or TSD I am very concerned over what directions these arts will take ANYWHERE on the Korean peninsula. I don't think it is enough to simply break up the ITF into various politically appropriate organizations. Though certainly heavily influenced by Japanese arts, these practices do include the material of the Korean people and their take on martial science. There is so little communicated about the nature of martial science in North Korea and I often fear that the decay of the martial traditions such as was going on before the Occupation may have simply continued through the Korean War and to the present day. Were this true I suggest that both the KMA and the World in general would have lost a significant bit of culture. At one time I had written the North Korean embassy in Canada in the hopes of getting information regarding attending the ITF event that was held there, but never heard anything. Nor have I heard anything about Hapkido practitioners in that country. If they can use ping-pong to open relations between China and the US, why can't KMA be used to get things going for the unification movement?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Marginal]

Originally posted by glad2bhere
If they can use ping-pong to open relations between China and the US, why can't KMA be used to get things going for the unification movement?

One could argue that Choi's decision to appoint a N Korean as the president was intended to be such an olive branch. (More of an attempt at reunification than "Yay N Korea! gesture) Especially with the rumors of WTF and ITF talks happening around that time etc.

Despicable government? Yes. Change has to come from somewhere tho. (Shrug)

 

[SBlue]

WTF is not "on it's way out", at least not where I'm from.

I've actually been enrolled in both ITF and WTF and I prefer WTF. ITF seemed to focus on the more "traditional" aspects - and we didn't even get to contact spar (we didn't break boards until green belt). In WTF we got to do everything. Aside from that, the tournaments I've participated in have been more structured and enjoyable.

But that's just me.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear SBlue:

How would you compare the respective attitudes of these organizations regarding S-D, submission work (locks and throws) and use of the hands? Did you find one organization more response to your needs than the other? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[SBlue]

Originally posted by glad2bhere
Dear SBlue:

How would you compare the respective attitudes of these organizations regarding S-D, submission work (locks and throws) and use of the hands? Did you find one organization more response to your needs than the other? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Hi there:

When I was enrolled in an ITF school, we did not cover any sort of grappling or groundfighting techniques, though we did spend some time on hand-techniques (mostly punching, I'll admit). I'm not sure how other ITF schools handle these areas, I can only say that the one I participated in really didn't cover much...

As far as WTF schools go, I think it depends primarily upon the school itself. I have trained in two different WTF schools. One didn't cover groundfighting/grappling techniques at all, while the other (the one I train at currently) has entire classes dedicated to self-defense, throwing, and grappling. Now, this is probably partly due in part to the fact that my instructor also holds a black belt in jiu jitsu, and believes that his students should be given as broad an education in the martial arts as possible. We also do exercises involving only our hands ("boxing"-style drills, for example).

I couldn't say which organization handles or covers these areas "better". The bottom line is that I think a good instructor will make sure that you get experience in them, regardless of organization... but hey, that's just been my experience so far!

Any other comments or additions from people are welcome of course