My First ITF Class

[Earl Weiss]

Btw Mr Weiss, your claim that ITF TKD strikes/kicks are those found in a patterns cannot be true. TKD strikes/kicks part of the curriculum but absent from ITF patterns include: Jumping back kick, jumping side kick, Hook kick, Tornado etc. Plenty of combat techniques missing from patterns.

Don't know what the above post means. Did you mean to say I calimed then All TKD techniques are contained in patterns? Whatever the above post means, I don't believe I made any such claim and if you can point me to a post where you think I made such a claim please let me know and I will attempt to clarify.

As a correction, the patterns do contain Jump Back Kick, Jump Side Kick, reverse Hook Kick. The term "Tornado Kick" is not a Chang Hon name and means different things in different systems so I cannot address this.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Why not have my "mythological" daddy illustrate what I concider to be Shotokan/ITF striking:

 

[Gnarlie]

Why not have my "mythological" daddy illustrate what I concider to be Shotokan/ITF striking:

Doesn't look very ITF to me.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Doesn't look very ITF to me.

Doesn't look very ITF to me.

ITF was orginally a Shotokan rip off. They even took large parts from the patterns. The Choi Encyklopedia from 1965 is basically lifted from Shotokan. Striking, Kicking, Makiwara training, free sparring, all of this is a complete copy and paste.

 

[Gnarlie]

ITF was orginally a Shotokan rip off. They even took large parts from the patterns. The Choi Encyklopedia from 1965 is basically lifted from Shotokan. Striking, Kicking, Makiwara training, free sparring, all of this is a complete copy and paste.

And yet the motion in that video looks nothing like ITF Taekwon-Do.

 

[Laplace_demon]

And yet the motion in that video looks nothing like ITF Taekwon-Do.

Because large parts of the clip is NOT striking. One part is.

 

[Gnarlie]

Because large parts of the clip is NOT striking. One part is.

No, because none of what is in the video looks anything like ITF Taekwon-Do. Striking or otherwise, the two are completely different. Sequences of movements may be similar but the way of moving is different.

 

[Laplace_demon]

No, because none of what is in the video looks anything like ITF Taekwon-Do. Striking or otherwise, the two are completely different. Sequences of movements may be similar but the way of moving is different.

Are you referring to Sine Wave inscriped into Chois patterns? I don't believe I, or anyone else would attempt a Sine Wave bounce in an actual altercation.

 

[Gnarlie]

Are you referring to Sine Wave inscriped into Chois patterns? I don't believe I, or anyone else would attempt a Sine Wave bounce in an actual altercation.

No.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Then I don't know what you are talking about. I have some pretty good insight as to the historical time line of ITF Taekwondo, and according to some sources within my club, this larger emphasis on hand techniques that we are seeing right now is pretty new. We had the Karate strikes, with TKDoins kicking for most of the time in tournaments ( I submit ITFers still kick 80-90% of the time today in sparring, but it was even more dominant earlier. Emphasis nowdays is at most 60% kicking in the dojang. But like I said, I don't concider certain boxining punches trained for self defence (again admission of art inferiority) or for competition (I thought we were traditional??) to be TKD strikes per se.

 

[TrueJim]

This is Chung Do Kwan (Won Kuk Lee via Funakoshi Gichin) in 1956. I think most folks here have seen this before. To my eye, I'm not even sure this looks like what Opeloski is doing, stylistically. But this should be about as close to Shotokan as we can get from Korean martial arts, no? Maybe it's that these guys aren't performing at the same level as Opeloski, or maybe Shotokan itself has evolved a lot since then.

 

[Laplace_demon]

This is Chung Do Kwan (Won Kuk Lee via Funakoshi Gichin) in 1956. I think most folks here have seen this before. To my eye, I'm not even sure this looks like what Opeloski is doing, stylistically. But this should be about as close to Shotokan as we can get from Korean martial arts, no? Maybe it's that these guys aren't performing at the same level as Opeloski, or maybe Shotokan itself has evolved a lot since then.

I don't think you can base anything of that clip. Chois TKD certainly evolved, with TKDoins fighting radically different from Shotokan karatekas. Different skills and weaknesses. That being said, I don't think the actual arsenal in the striking department is different. To put it very simplisticly, the kicks were a great area of focus and TKD kinda developed it's own identity from what had already been a part of Shotokan but not emphasised. That is the diplomatic way of describing the course of events.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Karatekas from the 50s fought just as roboticly.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Why not have my "mythological" daddy illustrate what I concider to be Shotokan/ITF striking:

Frankly, I'll believe he's your father when he tells me so himself.
I don't how that rates as far as Shotokan goes, but it's not ITF striking by any stretch of the imagination. I understand that, given your extremely limited training, it might all look the same to you, but it really isn't.

 

[Laplace_demon]

Of course not. I mean, I have never been taught knife hand strike and Tsuki (straight punch) in my ITF class.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Are you referring to Sine Wave inscriped into Chois patterns? I don't believe I, or anyone else would attempt a Sine Wave bounce in an actual altercation.

It looks nothing like non sine wave TKD either.

 

[Earl Weiss]

ITF was orginally a Shotokan rip off. They even took large parts from the patterns. The Choi Encyklopedia from 1965 is basically lifted from Shotokan. Striking, Kicking, Makiwara training, free sparring, all of this is a complete copy and paste.

Since the book explicitly lists the Shorin and Shorei styles as "TKD" and even includes Shorin and Shorei patterns what intense research or experience lead to your "discovery"?

 

[Laplace_demon]

Since the book explicitly lists the Shorin and Shorei styles as "TKD" and even includes Shorin and Shorei patterns what intense research or experience lead to your "discovery"?

I just stated that the Choi encyklopedia is basically Korean Shotokan.it's quite evident that the influence (rip off) is from a "hard" Karate style, and not hard/soft or soft style. It's FROM Shotokan. That' what Choi trained.

 

[TrueJim]

I just stated that the Choi encyklopedia is basically Korean Shotokan.it's quite evident that the influence (rip off) is from a "hard" Karate style, and not hard/soft or soft style. It's FROM Shotokan. That' what Choi trained.

I don't understand why you use the phrase "rip off". It's as if you're intentionally trying to provoke people. There's nothing "stolen" when one martial art splits from another. The phrase "rip off" is neither accurate, nor descriptive, nor helpful.

At this point, I have to believe that you're just intentionally trolling.

Ultimately, as I understand it, Jhoon Rhee, ATA, ITF, and GTF styles of taekwondo all have Shotokan in their heritage.

 

[Laplace_demon]

I am so sorry. The striking of ITF looks nothing like Shotokan. Here is General Chois favourite student, Grand Master Rhee. He will show you all the ITF striking.

At 0:23

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