It really is the system.

[Yokozuna514]

I guess I look at it from the other side. I want them to solve the problem all the way through, then we can go back and work on what they could have done to stay out of it. My approach comes from seeing people develop a habit of stopping when they make a mistake, rather than finding a way out of the mess. A bad habit to have in a fight, whether that's competitive or a self-defense situation. There are likely other ways to keep that habit from developing.

Osu, I've adapted my approach to teaching/coaching throughout the years exactly for this reason. The last thing I want to see is a player make a mistake and throw their hands up (or look at the coach/teacher) for the answer WHILE play is going on. If stuff happens and your plan doesn't work, then look for something else you can do instead of throwing your hands up and basically giving up. This is more of an issue when training kids but I have also seen adults that get stymied on the tatami and have no idea on how to recover without looking at their coach. There may be situations where this can work but I haven't seen too many that make me want to change my approach.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I guess I look at it from the other side. I want them to solve the problem all the way through, then we can go back and work on what they could have done to stay out of it. My approach comes from seeing people develop a habit of stopping when they make a mistake, rather than finding a way out of the mess. A bad habit to have in a fight, whether that's competitive or a self-defense situation. There are likely other ways to keep that habit from developing.

I'm probably like this because I train Kung Fu. There's tons of stuff where if you get step 1 wrong then everything else that follows will be degraded. If I get my high sweep wrong, then someone will take my back, if I get my long punches wrong, then I might get kicked in the face, after that point. I'm either going to be trying to recover from being dazed, or KO. If you take a look at many of the Kung Fu people getting man handled, you'll discover that it's not Step 2 that puts them such a bad situation, It's Step 1.

I only stop things for foundational errors. If you get Step 1 correct then I will let students try to work everything else. Step 1 for me is always foundational basics. How I stand facing my opponent, before strikes or attacks occur is a foundational process. So as long as the student gets the foundation stuff, they can learn from other mistakes, which are more of errors with technique application or deployment. If you stand in front of your opponent with locked knees then I will stop you right there. lol.

 

[drop bear]

Agree at least that clip starts with a clinch (even if it doesn't start with fist flying).

The following clip doesn't start with a clinch. IMO, it's a mistake to attack with single leg while your opponent's arms are free.

That may look like a silly defence mechanically. But listening to the commentary he is using magic to make it work. So therefore it is justified.

It is better to attack the single leg while their arms are free. And this is because while the punching is all happening at your head. You should move your head to where the punching isn't happening to attempt the grab.

This also means they are not defending their legs with any sort of cross face.

So here for example he changes levels.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Also to train in a "pure striking art" (no respect to single leg), or a "pure grappling art" (no respect to head punch) will hold back the kick/punch/lock/throw/ground_game integration.

I don't think the following fighting stance will fit in the MMA environment. The more you train like this, the more bad habit that you will bring into your MMA.

You would think so, but in fact a large percentage of top MMA fighters come from precisely that sort of wrestling background where they are used to working from that kind of stance. It appears the benefits of dedicated wrestling experience outweigh the drawbacks of having to learn different stances and entries for a context where striking is involved.

Agree at least that clip starts with a clinch (even if it doesn't start with fist flying).

The following clip doesn't start with a clinch. IMO, it's a mistake to attack with single leg while your opponent's arms are free.

It can be done effectively. Check out this footage of former UFC champion Daniel Cormier:

The real problem with the video you posted is that the guy feeding the attack has no clue about how to do a single leg correctly. When the attack is that incompetent, almost any defense will work.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Yes you can throw hooks from a low horse stance, but it's done in the context of someone going for a single leg take down. It's possible to throw hooks, palm strikes, tiger's claw, slaps, jabs, and uppercuts with no problem. I know it sounds crazy, but you have to keep it in context. Like it's possible to throw jabs, hooks, and elbows while on your knees. Just saying it like that sounds stupid, but in the context of being in mount, it makes sense.

edit: The only thing that some people will have trouble with is driving power. If you are used to driving power by pivoting on your foot, then this will be difficult. If you are the type that drives power by pushing the rear leg then you shouldn't have too much trouble with making the shots count. In low stances the punches are done with flat feet, because you are in a stance height for use against grappling.

Oh yes I know you CAN throw hooks from a low horse stance but I would question how effective they would be. All things being equal, if I shoot on you and you go into a low horse stance and start punching, dollars to donuts you are going to get the worst of that exchange. What's available to me are a myriad ways to put you down (eg: single leg, ankle picks, trips or simply just tackling you down if I have superior weight). If you do manage to land blows to my body, I can easily shift to a fireman's carry and tag your privates with impunity before I put you down and take a superior position.

I'm sure we can go back and forth detailing what both of us can do but my point is hooks from a low horse stance where you hips are essentially taken out of the equation means you are using just arms and shoulders to punch. Also you aren't really defending the takedown by doing things that will prevent you from being thrown. Maybe it's my flavour but I think I would forget about hooks and look to stuff the shoot first.

 

[drop bear]

Oh yes I know you CAN throw hooks from a low horse stance but I would question how effective they would be. All things being equal, if I shoot on you and you go into a low horse stance and start punching, dollars to donuts you are going to get the worst of that exchange. What's available to me are a myriad ways to put you down (eg: single leg, ankle picks, trips or simply just tackling you down if I have superior weight). If you do manage to land blows to my body, I can easily shift to a fireman's carry and tag your privates with impunity before I put you down and take a superior position.

I'm sure we can go back and forth detailing what both of us can do but my point is hooks from a low horse stance where you hips are essentially taken out of the equation means you are using just arms and shoulders to punch. Also you aren't really defending the takedown by doing things that will prevent you from being thrown. Maybe it's my flavour but I think I would forget about hooks and look to stuff the shoot first.

The problem with punching, and especially hooks is two parts.

You defend a double or single by creating space between them and your hips. And the general practice is to get your arms in the way to do this. Now if you are throwing hooks your arms are up. Your elbows are up and they free access to your hips.

And you need your hips to strike. They need to rotate to throw hooks they need to drop to throw downward elbows. And the other guy is hanging on to your hips.

If we looked at the position of the single leg and the direction he is trying to go. And you add a bunch of momentum in that same direction by trying to strike. You are going to be in trouble.

 

[Yokozuna514]

The problem with punching, and especially hooks is two parts.

You defend a double or single by creating space between them and your hips. And the general practice is to get your arms in the way to do this. Now if you are throwing hooks your arms are up. Your elbows are up and they free access to your hips.

And you need your hips to strike. They need to rotate to throw hooks they need to drop to throw downward elbows. And the other guy is hanging on to your hips.

If we looked at the position of the single leg and the direction he is trying to go. And you add a bunch of momentum in that same direction by trying to strike. You are going to be in trouble.

Hey you are preaching to the choir . The only hooks I would go for are the under hook kind but that would be after I stuff the shoot.

 

[drop bear]

Hey you are preaching to the choir . The only hooks I would go for are the under hook kind but that would be after I stuff the shoot.

Yeah Mabye some sort of goofy inside forearm strike or something.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Agree at least that clip starts with a clinch (even if it doesn't start with fist flying).

The following clip doesn't start with a clinch. IMO, it's a mistake to attack with single leg while your opponent's arms are free.

I don't like the video. This is taken out of context. It doesn't factor the strikes that the defender will eat before the take down attempt. Have someone give a little more mobility and use some punches to set up the take down, and you'll quickly see the idea of that application not working. For example, that Feint jab was thrown 3 miles out.

The raised knee technique works but in application it doesn't look like that. There a lot more struggle in the application. Which goes back to the abrasiveness.
The picture below goes to my point about messing up that Foundational Step 1. If this is what you look like when you do a single leg take down then you have already screwed up before the life. The only option at this point is to keep the leg from touching the ground (don't lift) but run through your opponent so his leg won't find the root. Drive forward.as fast as you can. Trying to lift at this point is going to be a bad lift. I know from experience because I did the same entry after a foot hook to a single leg and the only way I could recover was to drive my sparring partner back, but I ran out of room and was afraid that if I kept pushing he would have made a hole in the wall or my head would have made one.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Hey, it's easy for me as an outsider and not being there to make suggestions to do this or do that or take this approach. There is usually more to it than that when you spend the time to get to know what is really the issue with that particular student. One approach to fixing a problem does not always render the same result. Corrections in class (or any attention) can get some people to just shut down to the point they no longer pay attention. These folks may do better in a smaller group setting where things can be less formal and they are more open to 'listening' and 'understanding' instructions. Just a different way of learning but that has been my experience. Not everyone learns the same way and as a man I have to be cognizant that my voice and tone can be received totally differently from the way I believe I am sending the message.

I've dealt with men, women and children who are handi-able as well as handi-capped (physically, mentally and sometimes both). It is not always easy to get to their level and make them understand that you are there to help improve their experience but they also must be willing to put in the effort to be open and try. Persistence and ingenuity pay off so good luck and keep trying. When they get their 'aha' moment you will be amazed at what kind of doors that opens for them.

I probably should have taped a small radio on the students gloves and stated, "if you can't hear the music then your hands are in the wrong place." lol

But in all seriousness. The most abused foundational required is "keep your hands up" How many times have we seen experienced fighters pay the price for ignoring that foundation

 

[Yokozuna514]

I probably should have taped a small radio on the students gloves and stated, "if you can't hear the music then your hands are in the wrong place." lol

But in all seriousness. The most abused foundational required is "keep your hands up" How many times have we seen experienced fighters pay the price for ignoring that foundation

That's the message but what we tend to forget is that the recipient is more than likely focusing on something else (like the sound of their heart pounding in their ears ). If I see someone constantly have this issue, I would go and have a chat with them after class to see if they realize that their hands are too low. Do they understand the consequences of keeping their hands low. Are they interested in working on additional drills on their own time to correct this problem. Would they be interested in pairing up with a more advanced student that can guide them during real time sparring so that they can understand context as well as form. I am sure there you can think of and have already tried tons of other things to correct this. Eventually they will figure it out or get tagged a few times and decide this is just not for them.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Oh yes I know you CAN throw hooks from a low horse stance but I would question how effective they would be.

They are effective so long as you drive the power with the leg and not a pivot. If I can remember (probably won't but, if I do). I will do a video of me punching pads from a low horse stance so you can hear the punches sound off.

All things being equal, if I shoot on you and you go into a low horse stance and start punching, dollars to donuts you are going to get the worst of that exchange.

Hasn't happened yet. Tested it against various people, including people with good take down skills and people with bad take down skills. Like I always say. I have it on tape. (well at least some of it)

What's available to me are a myriad ways to put you down (eg: single leg, ankle picks, trips or simply just tackling you down if I have superior weight).

Ankle pick will put you at risk of being punched or kick in the face. Dropping down in a low horse stance doesn't mean it's static horse stance. Footwork is always in the picture.

Physically impossible to be in these position if I'm in low horse stance

You can tackle me if you want but it's not going to play out like you think. This guy is going in for the tackle, He did this when I was in a low stance. My hook isn't going to land. Because I'm in a horse stance my rear hand is in a good position for an under hook. The guys that are good won't mess with me when I'm in a low stance like that. They'll play it safe by kicking my lead leg until I'm tired of the punishment.

This is the result of his plan

Second attempt I'm in low stance again.

He charges in punching. I don't back up

This is the result of his plan

but my point is hooks from a low horse stance where you hips are essentially taken out of the equation means you are using just arms and shoulders to punch.

When I do hooks, I generate power in this manner . Foot flat - Leg -> waist -> arm
If you generate a power for a hook like this Ball of foot> hip> arm> Then you won't be able to drive the power while in horse stance

Here's the power that you don't think is there

 

[JowGaWolf]

or get tagged a few times and decide this is just not for them.

I try to do my best to keep people from reaching this point. Sometimes that "light bulb of understanding" just takes a long time to turn on. And often times it happens off the mat doing something totally unrelated.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Osu, I've adapted my approach to teaching/coaching throughout the years exactly for this reason. The last thing I want to see is a player make a mistake and throw their hands up (or look at the coach/teacher) for the answer WHILE play is going on. If stuff happens and your plan doesn't work, then look for something else you can do instead of throwing your hands up and basically giving up. This is more of an issue when training kids but I have also seen adults that get stymied on the tatami and have no idea on how to recover without looking at their coach. There may be situations where this can work but I haven't seen too many that make me want to change my approach.

Agreed. I started the change by simply telling them they aren't allowed to just give up on a technique. If it isn't working, do SOMETHING. Since we cover punches, elbows, and knees before they learn their first grappling technique, I encourage a (simulated) strike, just to get in the habit of using those strikes to keep the other guy on the defensive (and themselves moving) when a technique fails.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm probably like this because I train Kung Fu. There's tons of stuff where if you get step 1 wrong then everything else that follows will be degraded. If I get my high sweep wrong, then someone will take my back, if I get my long punches wrong, then I might get kicked in the face, after that point. I'm either going to be trying to recover from being dazed, or KO. If you take a look at many of the Kung Fu people getting man handled, you'll discover that it's not Step 2 that puts them such a bad situation, It's Step 1.

I only stop things for foundational errors. If you get Step 1 correct then I will let students try to work everything else. Step 1 for me is always foundational basics. How I stand facing my opponent, before strikes or attacks occur is a foundational process. So as long as the student gets the foundation stuff, they can learn from other mistakes, which are more of errors with technique application or deployment. If you stand in front of your opponent with locked knees then I will stop you right there. lol.

I can see that. And I'm not saying I wouldn't go back and fix the issue at step 1. I just want them to keep that problem-solving mindset so when things go south, they are used to dealing with that. But once they've done what they can to keep things moving, I'll stop it and go back to work on what they initially messed up.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I started the change by simply telling them they aren't allowed to just give up on a technique. If it isn't working, do SOMETHING.

I like this one. This is pretty much the reality for all of us. There will be a time where a technique doesn't work and we have to move to the next one.

The idea is to flow into the next technique but we all know the reality of that one. Easier said than done, and it gets more difficult as your opponent's skill level increases..

 

[dvcochran]

Agreed. I started the change by simply telling them they aren't allowed to just give up on a technique. If it isn't working, do SOMETHING. Since we cover punches, elbows, and knees before they learn their first grappling technique, I encourage a (simulated) strike, just to get in the habit of using those strikes to keep the other guy on the defensive (and themselves moving) when a technique fails.

Do SOMETHING!
I love that. It forces a person to use the blob in their skull for more than just the expected conditions to process and come with exceptions/solutions to the problem at hand.
This adds a much more real world element to training.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Do SOMETHING!
I love that. It forces a person to use the blob in their skull for more than just the expected conditions to process and come with exceptions/solutions to the problem at hand.
This adds a much more real world element to training.

And it takes away the tendency to just stop at the point of error and tell their partner to "start over". I want students to get used to making at least one move past where the error occurred, so they aren't in the habit of just stopping. It's like getting someone who has done a lot of common dojo sparring to stop attacking once and then backing off (what I call "my turn, your turn" sparring).

 

[O'Malley]

Agree at least that clip starts with a clinch (even if it doesn't start with fist flying).

The following clip doesn't start with a clinch. IMO, it's a mistake to attack with single leg while your opponent's arms are free.

I lost it after a few seconds. Countering someone lunging at your groin with "golden cock" and "repulse monkey" is just too funny.

 

[Yokozuna514]

They are effective so long as you drive the power with the leg and not a pivot. If I can remember (probably won't but, if I do). I will do a video of me punching pads from a low horse stance so you can hear the punches sound off.

Hasn't happened yet. Tested it against various people, including people with good take down skills and people with bad take down skills. Like I always say. I have it on tape. (well at least some of it)

Ankle pick will put you at risk of being punched or kick in the face. Dropping down in a low horse stance doesn't mean it's static horse stance. Footwork is always in the picture.

Physically impossible to be in these position if I'm in low horse stance
View attachment 23707

View attachment 23710


You can tackle me if you want but it's not going to play out like you think. This guy is going in for the tackle, He did this when I was in a low stance. My hook isn't going to land. Because I'm in a horse stance my rear hand is in a good position for an under hook. The guys that are good won't mess with me when I'm in a low stance like that. They'll play it safe by kicking my lead leg until I'm tired of the punishment.
View attachment 23712

This is the result of his plan
View attachment 23713

Second attempt I'm in low stance again.
View attachment 23714

He charges in punching. I don't back up
View attachment 23715

This is the result of his plan
View attachment 23716



When I do hooks, I generate power in this manner . Foot flat - Leg -> waist -> arm
If you generate a power for a hook like this Ball of foot> hip> arm> Then you won't be able to drive the power while in horse stance

Here's the power that you don't think is there

A picture is worth a thousand words as they say. I see you use your 'low horse stance' like what I would call a 'side stance'. I can also see why opponents would have more of tendency to punish the lead leg before attempting a shoot. These are not meant as criticisms and obviously it is easy to get the wrong idea just from a picture. I am surprised that people that did attempt shoots on you, didn't go for your back (as in fake a single leg to take your back). Perhaps you are fast enough to keep cover that attack but it is again difficult to see with just a still motion photo.

One of the issues I see with a low horse stance is it has a tendency to take away mobility and freeze the hips. The wider and lower the stance, the more difficult to move the feet. Standing sideways also means to me that you are taking away the use of two of your weapons especially if your opponents constantly circles to your back. I coached basketball for years and when I would teach defence and defensive stances to young kids I would start with showing them what the proper form was and then work a simple side to side, back and front drill. Next I would tell them to widen their stance by one foot distance and do the same drill. The intent was to show them that the wider the feet got, the slower they were to move. I would also do the inverse to show them how difficult it was to keep their balance the narrower their stance. However, since everyone's body is different, they needed to find the right distance for themselves. I found this translates to fighting as well. Sure, there are people that use wider stances (Shotokan point sparring) and have mobility but that kind of movement doesn't seem to translate well into practical fighting where power generation into your strikes is desired.

In the Mike Tyson videos, I can see how he generates his power but his feet are essentially shoulder width apart and he stance is more forward. He has full range of motion from his hips in this fashion. If you can do the same from a low horse stance from the side, you must have really flexible hip joints.