It really is the system.

[Yokozuna514]

[QUOTE="Here we see someone doing Aikido and it doesn't look like the smooth demos we see. To me this would be more realistic training for Aikido application. Especially because it's not Style A vs Style A. How effective will it be, will all depend on the training, the person , and the system.

[/QUOTE]

One thing I observed from the video is there seems to be a large discrepancy between the experience of the two people sparring. The Aikidoka has no gloves while the person he is fighting has rather large boxing gloves he is clearly not familiar with using. Real experience is something difficult to translate from one style to another but convincing a TKD guy to wear big boxing gloves was clearly going to give the Aikidoka an advantage. Would the outcome be any different without the gloves, probably not. Gear can only protect you if you know how to use it. Strapping it on will not give you anything more than you had before and may even put you at a disadvantage.

I've seen Rokas' videos for years and I give him props for publishing his journey on YouTube that led to the subsequent closing of his school and a change of path to a new MA. I would be interested to see how his fighting evolves and if he will ever use anything he learned on his prior path. From the last videos I have seen, it would seem not.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Well, not if you are knocked down/out by the kick. That kid was in slow motion and inaccurate.

Agree! The Aikido guy has no respect to the TKD guy's kicking/punching power.

In sparring, the 1st kick/punch that you throw should always be 100% power. If you can let your opponent to block your kick/punch and feels the shocking, the rest of the sparring will be easy for you.

This is why I hate the light contact sparring. How can you expect your opponent to respect your kick/punch if you can't let your opponent to feel your full power?

 

[WaterGal]

Yeah, looking at it again I can see where it may be a "propaganda" video for Aikido but who knows? Why did the TKD guy have on padding at all? Why did he continuously kick at the shoulders instead of the head. The few kicks that got in were heavily pulled. When I watch the TKD guy get off the floor he looks gassed from the start.
The Aikido guy was smooth and energy efficient from the start.

My guess is that the Aikido guy was working on practicing defenses against a striking opponent, and got a striking opponent to strike at him. The striking guy is probably either not very skilled (blue belt in TKD tends to be around 1-2 years of experience, so that may well be the case), or he's intentionally hesitating/telegraphing/pulling in order to help his partner practice the move, or both.

 

[Yokozuna514]

the 1st kick/punch that you throw should always be 100% power.

I trust you are speaking about tournament sparring. Dojo sparring at 100% contact is not practical or realistic unless everyone in that session is roughly the same weight and experience. No one is going to learn anything if you are going 100 % and the weight difference is more than 50 lbs.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When your opponent uses circular kick such as roundhouse kick or spin hook kick toward your head, if you just cover your head and run toward your opponent, what do your think your successful rate to run your opponent down may be?

- 10 out of 10 (100% successful)?
- 8 out of 10?
- 5 out of 10?
- 3 out of 10?
- 0 out of 10 (100% failure)?

Your thought?

 

[JowGaWolf]

For all we know the Aikido guy may have been low experience as well and just been a more fight/spar oriented person

He didn't have a intermediate level of applying his techniques in sparring. He may be ok if it's Style A vs Style A,, but it's clear that he was hunting and trying to figure out how to make things works.

You know when someone has a technique down. They look comfortable with using that technique and it never looks like they are trying to figure stuff out. The one thing that I like is that he didn't try to make it look "flowing" like what we see in the demos. A lot of people try to fight light that and I just don't think it's realistic. fighting is abrasive. Floating like a feather and just catching stuff out of mid air with slow movement's just isn't going to happen. Kicks and punches are going to come in, and you gotta be fast and during that thing are going to be abrasive.

Yeah, looking at it again I can see where it may be a "propaganda" video for Aikido but who knows?

I hope not lol. not exactly a stellar performance. Good for showing the type of training but that's about it.

The top video is a great example of the TKD guy kicking air. That was a free knockout shot had he kicked correctly.

Yeah he pulled a couple of them If he didn't want to kick the person in the face then he should have kicked him in the chest. It doesn't help the Aikido practitioner to pull the kick completely back.

When I train others, I always tell them to acknowledge punches that could have landed. Don't just act as if nothing happened. If they do that then they can correct the issues without getting hit that time. If they ignore it then they will have to learn the hard way. There were a few times where the Aikido screwed up big time with outstretched hands and strikes looping over that guard. Then he kept making the same mistake as if he didn't realize the danger he put himself in.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Dojo sparring at 100% contact is not practical or realistic unless everyone in that session is roughly the same weight and experience. No one is going to learn anything if you are going 100 % and the weight difference is more than 50 lbs.

If a grappler (such as an Aikido guy) has no respect to a striker's punching power, soon or later the striker will be taken down by that grappler.

A striker may play light contact sparring with another striker. A striker should never play light contact sparring with a grappler.

 

[JowGaWolf]

One thing I observed from the video is there seems to be a large discrepancy between the experience of the two people sparring. The Aikidoka has no gloves while the person he is fighting has rather large boxing gloves he is clearly not familiar with using

Probably because the Aikidoka wasn't going to strike. Which in my inexperience, seems to be incorrect. Punches and hand strikes actually make it easier to grab. For example, when a person throws a punch or open hand strike, the defender will pause their hands and arms to protect or guard where the strike will land. This is the optimum time to grab an arm. As soon as you grab the arm, then you can "flow with the punch" that will try to come out. This should be easier because you have already made contact and the grab, which is better than trying to catch strikes.

Just wading into strikes with outstretched arms doesn't make sense to me. If I want to grab someone's arm, I sure as heck don't want to do it as it's punching.

 

[Yokozuna514]

If a grappler (such as an Aikido guy) has no respect to a striker's punching power, soon or later the striker will be taken down by that grappler.

A striker may play light contact sparring with another striker. A striker should never play light contact sparring with a grappler.

Respect is earned, I would agree with you there. However, I would not use terms like 'always' and 'never' because there are always exceptions. If this was an interclub match up between two people that study different MA and one has clearly more experience than the other, a 100% punch/kick is probably not appropriate.

Probably because the Aikidoka wasn't going to strike. Which in my inexperience, seems to be incorrect. Punches and hand strikes actually make it easier to grab. For example, when a person throws a punch or open hand strike, the defender will pause their hands and arms to protect or guard where the strike will land. This is the optimum time to grab an arm. As soon as you grab the arm, then you can "flow with the punch" that will try to come out. This should be easier because you have already made contact and the grab, which is better than trying to catch strikes.

Just wading into strikes with outstretched arms doesn't make sense to me. If I want to grab someone's arm, I sure as heck don't want to do it as it's punching.

There is clearly more at play than just two people from different MA sparring. If they were of equal experience in their respective systems, I would hope to see the TKD decline the use of gloves that are only going to be used against him.

Agreed, when punches and strikes are coming in, there is better opportunity to catch them but that still depends on your level of comfort for dealing with these strikes and know what to do with them. If you don't know what to do with it, you are just going to end up giving it back.

 

[Steve]

Whether you consider this to be the tortoise/hair thing @JowGaWolf mentioned, or something similar, it's very predictable and should be no surprise. What never ceases to amaze me is how we all seem to be surprised that some folks who train in martial arts can't defend themselves at all. I mean, I can understand if a grappler is rolled up when taken out of his element or a striker seems defenseless when taken to the ground. That's totally reasonable, if you have gaps in your training. But if you train to grapple and cannot, or if you train to strike and cannot, something is seriously broken in your training model. It's not the person.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If a striker doesn't train how to knock down his opponent, what else does the striker train for? If a striker control his punching power, how can he knock down his opponent?

It's a joke that a striker tries to play light contact sparring rule with a grappler. Should that sparring stop when the striker uses uppercut on his opponent while he had a head lock?

I like to sparring rule that any head punch/kick should end the sparring match.

 

[Damien]

Within the group, the person matters a lot. Who is in the group matters, too - and that is at least partly a function of the training (what attracts/repels different kinds of people).

Completely agree. The importance of good like minded training partners is often over looked. If there is no one around your level, their either too inexperienced, or too experienced then it can be very hard to get the right amount of pressure when drilling or sparring. Having people with the same intent behind their training can really drive you forward too.

 

[Steve]

Agreed. The best folks (in whatever way we choose to define "best") in any group of martial artists are likely to have gotten that way by being or doing different from the rest. So they either had some natural athletic gifts or abilities when they started, or they worked harder/smarter in their training.

Within the group, the person matters a lot. Who is in the group matters, too - and that is at least partly a function of the training (what attracts/repels different kinds of people).

Best in a group, though, is relative to the group. The very best in a bad system may be very bad outside of that insular group. All the natural talent in the world can be completely negated by a poor system. And an average talent in a good system can excel over an exceptional talent who is in a poor system.

 

[Steve]

Through competition.

not the only way, but definitely the safest and most accessible way to measure skill.

 

[dvcochran]

Best in a group, though, is relative to the group. The very best in a bad system may be very bad outside of that insular group. All the natural talent in the world can be completely negated by a poor system. And an average talent in a good system can excel over an exceptional talent who is in a poor system.

So you have a list of the ‘poor systems’?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Completely agree. The importance of good like minded training partners is often over looked. If there is no one around your level, their either too inexperienced, or too experienced then it can be very hard to get the right amount of pressure when drilling or sparring. Having people with the same intent behind their training can really drive you forward too.

Your comment reminded me of the 1 minute mark here. You can see the effect when someone is too experienced. You can see him trying to avoid everything. He even mentions it at the 3:30 mark.

 

[Steve]

So you have a list of the ‘poor systems’?

Do you have a list? Or is every school the same?

 

[dvcochran]

Do you have a list? Or is every school the same?

I have no list nor would i have made such a broad or damning comment.
Are there bad schools? Yes, definitely. Bad systems? I can’t say that. I don’t know anyone who have broad enough experience to make that judgement.

 

[Steve]

I have no list nor would i have made such a broad or damning comment.
Are there bad schools? Yes, definitely. Bad systems? I can’t say that. I don’t know anyone who have broad enough experience to make that judgement.

Cool. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Probably because the Aikidoka wasn't going to strike. Which in my inexperience, seems to be incorrect. Punches and hand strikes actually make it easier to grab. For example, when a person throws a punch or open hand strike, the defender will pause their hands and arms to protect or guard where the strike will land. This is the optimum time to grab an arm. As soon as you grab the arm, then you can "flow with the punch" that will try to come out. This should be easier because you have already made contact and the grab, which is better than trying to catch strikes.

Just wading into strikes with outstretched arms doesn't make sense to me. If I want to grab someone's arm, I sure as heck don't want to do it as it's punching.

There's an odd thing in the Aikido world (Ueshiba's Aikido). I see very few examples of folks who know how to strike. And Ueshiba was quoted as saying something like "Aikido is 70% atemi (strikes)". I don't understand how the strikes vanished from the art if they were so important to the founder.