Is your cup too full?

[exile]

Since you asked. Aikido.

I've taken some Hopkido which is where I was first introduced to the techniques he showed me. I'm head of security in a bar so he was showing me some control techniques. He wasn't hitting on a girl at the party either, his wife was there. I'm not slamming the BB, he's a great guy. Alcohol was involved and we were just screwing around in the yard a bit. Again, I find the art very effective but it's not always easy to get ahold of an attackers arm or wrist when he's 50, 100lbs bigger and swinging at you. The conversation began when I told him I'd thrown one punch in my bar in two years and his reply was he'd never throw a punch. Being someone with some experience in real world application I just feel that what works and looks inpressive in the dojo isn't always affective on the street.

I agree... it's always got to be adapted. But this is kind of what you might expect---if it's Aikido, where things like locks are the bread-and-butter of the combat application, then he might well have been expecting her to know, from the nature of the art, just what to do at that point. I'd have been surprised, though, if it had Gojo-ryu or TKD that were involved, because their locks are usually forcing moves to set up a strike to an exposed vital area (throat, solar plexis, base of skull, groin)---not always, but it's much more common. So in those cases, yes, a bit more explanation---kick the guy here, or elbow him there and keep the control going---would sort of be expected.

So maybe it's not so much a matter of him having been exclusive about his art as not wanting to have to state what he figured should be obvious to a student who'd been doing Aikido for a while (e.g., `Well, now you break his arm, duh'), along the lines Keikei suggested earlier. He might have just been leaving it to her to figure out, kind of a teaching technique---`I'm not going to tell you, you should be able to work this out on your own' sort of thing.

 

[Rook]

It may also be that someone doesn't want to teach their finishing techniques at a party. Ussually they just show people a little of what they know to have a conversation, not instruct the whole martial art.

 

[exile]

It may also be that someone doesn't want to teach their finishing techniques at a party. Ussually they just show people a little of what they know to have a conversation, not instruct the whole martial art.

Yes, that's true too...

 

[CuongNhuka]

I hope this doesn't turn into ANOTHER firey thread about "To Cross-train or not". There are already hundreds on here.

Opening one's mind doesn't have to mean cross-training. Just like to be successful you don't actually have to sell Amway!

i agree. besides hubud is fun.

 

[Ybot]

I was worked a little with an Aikidoka showing a bit of my martial art and him sharing his. One thing that he explained when we started was a philosophy of his art as related to him by his instructor. Basicly it was that by taking Aikido you are not only learning to defend your self, but also making a commitment not to hurt anyone else, including who ever attacks you. Nice philosophy, maybe unreasonable in real life, but a nice goal none the less. In this case, as an Aikidoka that may be the end. Hold the armbar, and don't let them go as long as their agressive. There would be no "finishing them off".

 

[TraditionalTKD]

And there is a difference between learning some techniques outside of your style that can be useful after you have advanced to a sufficient level, and learning several styles because you think one style is not enough. Each style has its own mindset, culture, philosophy, way of thinking etc. If you don't stand for something you will fall for anything.
Do one thing, but be the best at it.

 

[CuongNhuka]

I was worked a little with an Aikidoka showing a bit of my martial art and him sharing his. One thing that he explained when we started was a philosophy of his art as related to him by his instructor. Basicly it was that by taking Aikido you are not only learning to defend your self, but also making a commitment not to hurt anyone else, including who ever attacks you. Nice philosophy, maybe unreasonable in real life, but a nice goal none the less. In this case, as an Aikidoka that may be the end. Hold the armbar, and don't let them go as long as their agressive. There would be no "finishing them off".

Tue, but most of the locks of aikido are also extremely painful,if you are struggling. Meaning if you try to gert out of an aikidoka's kotegaishi, odds are either:
1 You'll wise up and stop
-OR-
2 You'll break your own wrist/elbow/dislocate your shoulder.

Either way, they don't really need an "end it" move.

 

[CuongNhuka]

And there is a difference between learning some techniques outside of your style that can be useful after you have advanced to a sufficient level, and learning several styles because you think one style is not enough. Each style has its own mindset, culture, philosophy, way of thinking etc. If you don't stand for something you will fall for anything.
Do one thing, but be the best at it.

BINGO!!!!!!!!!

o.k. toneing it down know. I'm glad there is anouther person saying it. Sometimes I feel like there is only a handful people that say that.

 

[exile]

Tue, but most of the locks of aikido are also extremely painful,if you are struggling. Meaning if you try to gert out of an aikidoka's kotegaishi, odds are either:
1 You'll wise up and stop
-OR-
2 You'll break your own wrist/elbow/dislocate your shoulder.

Either way, they don't really need an "end it" move.

Well... not necessarily. If your assailant decides that discretion is the better part of valor at that point and cools way down, probably not. But if you're dealing with someone who is likely to renew the attack after you release them, then...? The intent of the finishing move, however it's done, is to make it physically difficult or impossible for someone (who's already shown their capacity for aggressive violence) to try to restart the assault, at long enough for you to get outa there.

 

[Bigshadow]

Well... not necessarily. If your assailant decides that discretion is the better part of valor at that point and cools way down, probably not. But if you're dealing with someone who is likely to renew the attack after you release them, then...? The intent of the finishing move, however it's done, is to make it physically difficult or impossible for someone (who's already shown their capacity for aggressive violence) to try to restart the assault, at long enough for you to get outa there.

IMO, An "end it" move is relative. That is like try to describe where the sky begins and ends. In our art, we also may try to immobilize the attacker to give them the option to renegotiate the situation, but again it is all relative to the attack they give (escalation of force). The harder they attack the harder they get punished. Any move could be the big "end it" move, including running.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Yes.

 

[Rook]

Tue, but most of the locks of aikido are also extremely painful,if you are struggling. Meaning if you try to gert out of an aikidoka's kotegaishi, odds are either:
1 You'll wise up and stop
-OR-
2 You'll break your own wrist/elbow/dislocate your shoulder.

Either way, they don't really need an "end it" move.

And what do will the attacker do AFTER his wrist, elbow or shoulder is broken? Fall over and die?

 

[Rook]

Perhaps my last comment came off unintentionally harsh. I meant to question whether a wrist or elbow break is really a guaranteed fight ender. I don't believe it is.

 

[matt.m]

I have earned my high brown in judo and have studied hapkido until I had to retire from it, I am staying strong in tae kwon do. I would have to say that I have a friend that is taking gracie jj. He is nagging at me to go with him.

I am being polite and telling him, "If I retired from hapkido and no longer compete in Judo for health reasons then why in the world would I try and participate in GJJ?" I personally don't think I would gain anything so I am a bit closed minded when he is trying to "Show" me stuff he is learning.

On the flip side I am encouraging him, I feel that you should study the art you want to study. My pet peeve if you will is when people say "I am a martial artist" when they never go to class.

 

[Keikai]

And what do will the attacker do AFTER his wrist, elbow or shoulder is broken? Fall over and die?

Having broken my wrist coming off a motor bike I ca say that I was not too interested in doing much of anything except concentrate on controlling the pain and stopping my wrist moving. Generally there is the shock factor to at least slow the attacker down. If they do try and attack again they will do so minus one limb to do anything with. You don't grab, punch or do much else with a broken joint in your arm. If they do the force "ain't" going to be much.

My Sensei trained ju jutsu and then trained Aikido under Mochizuki Minoru Sensei. de Jong Sensei agreed with the philosophy of Aikido and in a perfect world that would be nice however, he felt the real world was not yet ready for pure Aikido. He took the best that Aikido had to offer in terms of technique and used that to enhance his ju jutsu - hard finishes and all.

Greg Palmer

Tsutsumi Ryu Ju Jutsu

 

[Bigshadow]

Perhaps my last comment came off unintentionally harsh. I meant to question whether a wrist or elbow break is really a guaranteed fight ender. I don't believe it is.

That is a good question. My answer to it is... It might or might not be. It all depends on the attacker's will to do whatever it is they are trying to do.

Am sure we all have seen shows of actual footage where gun shots and knife stabs were not "end it" moves and others where a punch to the grill was the "end it" move.

IMO, I don't count on anything being something other than it is at *that* moment.

 

[INDYFIGHTER]

My Sensei trained ju jutsu and then trained Aikido under Mochizuki Minoru Sensei. de Jong Sensei agreed with the philosophy of Aikido and in a perfect world that would be nice however, he felt the real world was not yet ready for pure Aikido. He took the best that Aikido had to offer in terms of technique and used that to enhance his ju jutsu - hard finishes and all.

Greg Palmer

Tsutsumi Ryu Ju Jutsu

Agreed. Too much tradition and not enough application for me.

 

[searcher]

Perhaps my last comment came off unintentionally harsh. I meant to question whether a wrist or elbow break is really a guaranteed fight ender. I don't believe it is.

The answer to that is to whether or not they go to the ground in pain or if they close in to protect themselves. I also have seen multiple gun shots not put a guy down and I have seen a slap from a little girl put a man down. Varies by the situation. Even if you break the wrist it does not mean that your tool bag is empty. It does mean that they have one limb out of service and is one less you have to deal with. If they come back you break the other wrist and that is two down. What I am trying to get at is that pain can be a great fight ender or can at least impede the use of certain body parts.

 

[The Lorax]

My Sensei trained ju jutsu and then trained Aikido under Mochizuki Minoru Sensei. de Jong Sensei agreed with the philosophy of Aikido and in a perfect world that would be nice however, he felt the real world was not yet ready for pure Aikido. He took the best that Aikido had to offer in terms of technique and used that to enhance his ju jutsu - hard finishes and all.

I was taught that the philosophy of aikido was harmony. You blend with the attacker and any force they use against you circles back to them. It says nothing about not breaking them, if nescessary. We play nice in the dojo because if we dont, who will want to play with us again? We know the "hard finishes", it's essential that we do, most techniques are only an inch or two away from broken bones and anyone who doesnt know that will have a very unhappy future training partner.

An armbar may not end a fight, but it gives you a moment to try to de-esculate it, where many arts will go right to a crippling technique. Any aikidoka who knows what they're doing can go from an armbar to broken bones in seconds if they need to. But not all attackers are trying to kill you, sometimes it's just a friend who's had a rough night, who will very much appreciate his still-in-one-piece arm when he sobers up the next morning.

I'm all for learning new things that might be able to help you, but I'm not going to learn a whole new system. Aikido is where my heart is, and no other art will be able to work for me like aikido does. I would never be able to train in an art that has a total disregard for the health of the oponent. I'm still willing to learn the little things that may have been left out of my aikido training, I could use better punches and kicks, and I wouldnt mind borrowing a few techniques if I were to stumble upon them. You can call me close minded if you like, but I just cant find a reason to take up another art. There is always new things to learn within my own art, to take up another would mean(to me) that I have mastered aikido and found it lacking.

 

[Keikai]

Blending and harmony are integral to Tsutsumi ju jutsu techniques and we are very mindful of the need to be in control and to respect our training partners. But that is training and the danger in applying the taking care not to harm an attacker in the street is that they do not live by that code and will keep coming until they win.

Having said that we always train with the view that you do only what is necessary to win the confrontation and not beat the person into submission.

My sensei always said that the aim in martial arts "is not to win but rather not to lose". By that he meant win the fight but keep your humanity intact. Sensei trained from the time he was 7 until his death at 82 and he mastered ju jutsu and in time he added techniques from other arts including Aikido because he wanted the most efficient self defence system possible. In that he remained a perfect gentleman who could do very nasty things if required (he survived occupied Holland during WW II when he had to do things he did not like) and continued until the time of his death to look for ways to improve his technique and his art.

Greg Palmer

Tsutsumi Ryu Ju Jutsu