This just in

[The Kidd]

Thank you for quoting the New testament.

So, I guess I should not compromise in my belief's either.

I gues those of other religions should not compromise with their belief's either.

I think we should all just continue to teach discrimination (* of other religions *) and just let all of us continue to kill each other.

Sorry but that is my feeling on this. When Religion gave guidance to those who needed it seems to work. When Religions make politics and you have wars, then I have a real hard time believing that those interpretation of "GOD's" words are correct.

Rich,

Thanks for the response, I think we need to remember one thing Man made religion, and as has been pointed out and I am living proof everyday Man can and does screw everything up that God has created for good. Just because the messenger is flawed doesn't mean the message is bad. I think when we believe in something we shouldn't compromise those beliefs and should stand by them and stand up for them. We also should not be so closed minded to not listen to other people, if we know what we believe and why then we should not feel challenged by other opinions it is when someone does not have a solid foundation that things get shakey and they feel threatened.

 

[Touch Of Death]

You would actually be correct in that assumption. The 'Bible' was originally written in Aramaic then countless translations into countless languages along with the translators' bias and thoughts of the day mean what you read in English is not was was written as God words. and then of course you get the intepretations eg the law about blood tranfusions that the Jehovahs Witnesses use is actually taken from the laws on diet and food. those laws themselves were very sensible for people who lived in a hot climate, they still are good basic hygiene rules.
When it came down to it, God gave only one law that whether we believe in Him or not is the one worth living by " Treat everyone as you would be treated yourself".

Gods Laws center around the family.

 

[Touch Of Death]

You know, I'm not being very PC here, but I don't really have any respect for this Sunday schools teachers belief. Just because it's a religious belief and her convictions are strong are no reason to give it any credence.

Jeff

"One man of peace dies and a hundred wars begin" The Jefferson Airplane

I think everyones mutual lack of respect is part of the problem.
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

Not everyone practices the MAs this way, but that's what they in effect started out as. Why would they not then constitute `stealable technology', as per your post? quote]

Yes, the martial arts are stealable technology; however the wearing of Dragons, the bowing to Yin and Yang symbols, and the out and out embracing of a foreign culture to do so, is going to far for some. If You or whomever weren't so neck deep in TKD or whatever, this Sunday school teacher wouldn't seem so stupid... just cautious. As a side note a local Spokane Valley Washington TKD thing has its students now bowing to the Israeli Flag and is teaching them to count in Hebrew. I respect the reasons for changing up, obviously, but I can only shake my head and say, "What the ****"; because, all he is doing is preserving the exact same issue of instilling loyalty to another government and culture. Oh well; it ain't my problem.
Sean

 

[Kacey]

Off topic as this may be - why an Israeli flag and Hebrew? I teach my students to count in Korean and some Korean history (although we don't bow to a Korean flag; we aren't Korean, after all) out of respect for the origins of TKD. An Israeli flag and Hebrew makes no sense to me.

As far as the original topic, my concern is that the teacher is out of line giving her interpretations of the dragon and martial arts to the child without asking a parent first why the child is wearing a dragon, and what the philosophy of the class is - because while some MA classes do cross the line into religion, or at least spirituality, many more don't. Having grown up being told by many people - including adults, and some teachers - that I was damned to Hell because I am Jewish and don't believe in Christ as the Messiah, I am in full accord with Terry being uncomfortable with this happening to his child - not because it is MA, but because no teacher has the right to tell a student that what his/her parents taught him/her is wrong without talking to the parent first to see exactly what was taught, and whether or not it really does conflict with the values and/or concepts being taught - which is what this teacher apparently did not do.

 

[terryl965]

Thanks Kacey for bringing this back on topic but I have had a great lesson in alot of this thread the info. is great.

Thanks All

 

[exile]

Not everyone practices the MAs this way, but that's what they in effect started out as. Why would they not then constitute `stealable technology', as per your post?

Yes, the martial arts are stealable technology; however the wearing of Dragons, the bowing to Yin and Yang symbols, and the out and out embracing of a foreign culture to do so, is going to far for some.

But that's my point exactly... there's nothing in TKD which requires you to wear dragons. In the case of Terry's child, I would imagine that the dragon has to do with the name of Terry's dojang---TwinDragons---so it's a kind of trademark. And while the dragon plays an important part as a symbol in certain Asian cultures, it also does so in many European cultures---the flag of Wales, a very publically Christian country (within the UK nation-state) actually has a dragon as the main element in its official flag. Does this mean that the Welsh, known for among other things their hauntingly beautiful chapel singing, have been inadvertantly cozying up to one or another infernal beings for the past several hundreds of years in which Y Ddraig Goch was the national icon of the Welsh? Come to think of it, the Welsh dragon appeared on the Royal arms during the 1400s... how could anyone possibly imagine that the souls of the British were in dire straits as a result??

As for the (Korean variant of the) Yin Yang , people are not bowing to it, but to the flag of Korea, of which this symbol is the most prominent element. People who bow to the Korean flag are not performing an act of obeisance to a Buddhist symbol---bowing in the dojang is not `bowing down', as in a gesture of religious submission---rather but a gesture of respect, like a salute or tipping of the hat, to the nation from which TKD comes. Again, no religious overtones.

[If You or whomever weren't so neck deep in TKD or whatever, this Sunday school teacher wouldn't seem so stupid... just cautious.Sean

Whether I were `neck deep' in TKD or not, what she would seem to me to be is massively ignorant. And Terry's child shouldn't have to be intimidated or hassled because of this particular teacher's massive ignorance.

 

[Tez3]

Ah Kacey, you're doomed as well as me then!
I think the main point here is not actually anything to do with religion, I think the thing we should be concerned about is an adult talking to a child in such a way as to frighten or intimidate them in other words bullying.Any concerns a teacher, Sunday school, MA instructor,dance, riding, anything, may have should be addressed to the child's parents. It doesn't matter what the concerns are, the child shoudn't have been spoken to about them.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Off topic as this may be - why an Israeli flag and Hebrew? I teach my students to count in Korean and some Korean history (although we don't bow to a Korean flag; we aren't Korean, after all) out of respect for the origins of TKD. An Israeli flag and Hebrew makes no sense to me.

quote]They are called "Spirit Martial Arts" now, I suspect its related to current global conflict but you would have to ask them for their resoning. The funny thing is, they are a Christian school.
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

As for the (Korean variant of the) Yin Yang , people are not bowing to it, but to the flag of Korea, of which this symbol is the most prominent element. People who bow to the Korean flag are not performing an act of obeisance to a Buddhist symbol---bowing in the dojang is not `bowing down', as in a gesture of religious submission---rather but a gesture of respect, like a salute or tipping of the hat, to the nation from which TKD comes. Again, no religious overtones.

quote]No matter how you slice it, you are bowing to a yin and yang symbol be it part of a flag or by itself. Saying it doesn't have religeous overtones does not make it true. Its a Yin and Yang symbol, and that symbol does not reflect Judeo-Christian values; its close, but different.
Sean

 

[bluemtn]

Martial Arts is a form of devil whorship, at Church yesterday I was infromed that my teaching Martial Arts is a form of letting the devil into a person soul. This did not come from the Father of the Church but instead by the lady that teaches Sunday school for my eight year old, she ask why he had a dragons on his coat and he aid he take TKD and she went into a frenzy with him about it being the devils way of taking over a person soul. Now I have to deal with this, What would be the best way of handleing it from a perspective of not offending the Church. We have been mambers there for a long time and most meember know I own and operate a school, but I believe this Sunday school teacher crossed the line with my son. Like to gey everybody else thought on this.

Well, that is certainly news to me! The woman had no right at all in saying something like that, especially to a child! One part of me would've given her an ear full, and I'm not sure if my more laid- back side would've convened on that or not... Too many people take it too far in their religious beliefs. A lot of them like to go around finding faults in everyone around, pointing them out and making you feel bad just because your beliefs aren't what they view is "THE WAY", if you catch my drift. She should come to my church... We have a Kenpo class, also other things she might not view as "correct" in her little world... I guess it would really be best to just ignore her, tell her your thoughts when you feel it's necessary. We're human, and will always have "hang- ups" such as hers from time to time.

 

[MBuzzy]

You know, from an objective point of view, people have been interpreting religion for their own means for thousands of years. The majority of the world is not interested in what they really stand for, mean, or intend. They are more interested in their own interpretations of the rules set forth by the religion. Obviously, every denomination does this....and I realize that it is REQUIRED for them to do it. But maybe it would help to just bring up to the teacher that first off, your child did not violate the intention of the religion in any way. A symbol or picture is nothing more than that...what matters is how you feel and behave toward it. Second and more importantly, I would ask in the most respectful way possible if the god that she believes in would damn a child to hell for the simple action of wearing a jacket with a picture on it - especially when the child has in no other way violated the intention or spirit of any rule or law...even if she believe that this IS in some way a violation (as misguided as that is)?

Lastly, for thousands of years, people have been killed and wars have been started in the name of the interpretations of religions (obviously, this is far less severe than that), it seems to me that it is never right to condemn someone just because their interpretation or feelings don't match yours.

 

[jks9199]

Not everyone practices the MAs this way, but that's what they in effect started out as. Why would they not then constitute `stealable technology', as per your post? quote]

Yes, the martial arts are stealable technology; however the wearing of Dragons, the bowing to Yin and Yang symbols, and the out and out embracing of a foreign culture to do so, is going to far for some. If You or whomever weren't so neck deep in TKD or whatever, this Sunday school teacher wouldn't seem so stupid... just cautious. As a side note a local Spokane Valley Washington TKD thing has its students now bowing to the Israeli Flag and is teaching them to count in Hebrew. I respect the reasons for changing up, obviously, but I can only shake my head and say, "What the ****"; because, all he is doing is preserving the exact same issue of instilling loyalty to another government and culture. Oh well; it ain't my problem.
Sean

Y'know...

That does bring up one thing that I'm not so keen about. Bowing to foreign flags. Especially since I've seen schools that didn't have a US flag in evidence -- but did have a Korean or Japanese flag.

I don't have a problem with respecting and knowing the origin of the art you're training, or even displaying their flag in the school -- but I'd personally rather seen the US flag more prominently featured in any school in the US than another country's flag, at a minimum.

 

[exile]

That does bring up one thing that I'm not so keen about. Bowing to foreign flags. Especially since I've seen schools that didn't have a US flag in evidence -- but did have a Korean or Japanese flag.

I don't have a problem with respecting and knowing the origin of the art you're training, or even displaying their flag in the school -- but I'd personally rather seen the US flag more prominently featured in any school in the US than another country's flag, at a minimum.

I'm with you, jks---I don't mind any symbolic gesture of respect (if that's what it is and nothing more) towards the appropriate object of respect (it's the art we respect, and our instructors and fellow students) but, I agree, there's something weird about directing that respect towards the country where something we respect originates rather than directly towards that something itself. But I was just talking about schools where that kind of bowing to the flag of the country of the MA's origin is customary; my point was just that where the bowing does take place, the gesture of respect is to the flag, not to some creed associated with a particular decorative component of the flag. I've been in more than one dojang where people bowed to the Korean flag who would be, let's say, totally out of sympathy with the standard interpretation of the red-and-blue Taegeuk. But they weren't bowing to the Taegeuk symbol, they were bowing to the Korean flag. As far as they were concerned, it could have been a map of the Korean peninsula there instead of the Taegeuk.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Thats just scarry. I've herad of some weird crap going on in the church, or members "acting on it's behalf", but this just tipps the scales into a level of f***ed up I didn't know could exist. Pardon my language, but I don't think that any other word adaquetly describes that. Whao. Jeezes. Although, that would exaplain Ann. Sorry, off topic.
I have no idea what could drive someone into doing such a thing. The only reason I can thgink is the fact that the dragon in Eurpean, especially Christian Europa, the dragon is a symbol of evil and the devil. Which is part of the reason dragons were often being attacked by knights and saints in storys from the middle ages. The other part is pagans thought of dragons as beings of good. By making a symbol of good a symbol of evil, they broke the backs of the pagans.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Rich,

Thanks for the response, I think we need to remember one thing Man made religion, and as has been pointed out and I am living proof everyday Man can and does screw everything up that God has created for good. Just because the messenger is flawed doesn't mean the message is bad. I think when we believe in something we shouldn't compromise those beliefs and should stand by them and stand up for them. We also should not be so closed minded to not listen to other people, if we know what we believe and why then we should not feel challenged by other opinions it is when someone does not have a solid foundation that things get shakey and they feel threatened.

I agree that Man is flawed.

My problem is that the failing is brought forward time and time again, while no one goes back to address the root causes of the process that allowed the failure or flaws to end up hurting people. Instead they wish to say that is one person and not the organization, but if it happens mroe than once maybe someone shoudl look in the mirror of their own organization to see what they can clean up before going after others.

As to know what you believe, and standing up for that I agree. At work some pray before a meal, it is no big deal to the rest of us who do not. What bothers me are those that proclaim to be right to life but then have an abortion in secret (* I know a whole lot of families like this to the point where I almost think it is common or average family *). They say one thing and practice another. They pick and choose parts of the teachings to practice and not look at the morals and the messages of the stories presented to teach in religions. This is not limited to one sect or area or specific religion.

Thanks

 

[SFC JeffJ]

"One man of peace dies and a hundred wars begin" The Jefferson Airplane

I think everyones mutual lack of respect is part of the problem.
Sean

Sorry it's been a while since I checked out this thread, but I did want to respond to this. I'm supposed to respect obviously wrong and downright silly beliefs even?

Jeff

 

[The Kidd]

I agree that Man is flawed.

My problem is that the failing is brought forward time and time again, while no one goes back to address the root causes of the process that allowed the failure or flaws to end up hurting people. Instead they wish to say that is one person and not the organization, but if it happens mroe than once maybe someone shoudl look in the mirror of their own organization to see what they can clean up before going after others.

As to know what you believe, and standing up for that I agree. At work some pray before a meal, it is no big deal to the rest of us who do not. What bothers me are those that proclaim to be right to life but then have an abortion in secret (* I know a whole lot of families like this to the point where I almost think it is common or average family *). They say one thing and practice another. They pick and choose parts of the teachings to practice and not look at the morals and the messages of the stories presented to teach in religions. This is not limited to one sect or area or specific religion.

Thanks

Your right the hardest part of life is the walk itself, I guess it matters if you believe man was born good and goes bad or was born bad and has to continue to strive to be good. I go back to my own personal struggles when I keep my eyes on the truth, I then know the path and I must choose to follow that path when I have listened to others/or myself I end up straying, getting myself in trouble and have to kick myself in the pants or God has to hit me in the head with the Holy 2x4 to get my attention so I can get my act together. Sometimes I find it comforting that I see others struggle like I do so I don't feel alone and it is just not me. When they succeed then I know I can myself.

 

[mrhnau]

Terry, since yesterday was Sunday I was just wondering how things went, assuming of course you got to talk w/ people about it...

 

[ajs1976]

Well I had a phone call today we are suppose to sit down on Monday and go over the whole incodent and find a solution to the problem. Will keep everybody updated afterwards. Thanks for all your support

Just saw this thread now. Good luck with the meeting.

This is a good example of why I am no longer involved in church and only go occasionally.