Is Wing Chun even viable.

[JowGaWolf]

If you want to get in shape you get in shape. If you want to fight you fight. If you want a social group it's a social group.

Fighters and hobbyists are the same people.

If you think you can't have all of that in one gym you are striving to be mediocre.

I know it can be done under one gym. But a lot of TMA school don't embrace fighting as a healthy thing. For me I embrace fighting and violence in general. Fighting and violence shouldn't be treated as a disease that humans have. Like everything else, there's just a positive way to do it that allows growth and a destructive way to do it that causes misery. Most TMAs go down that "less violence" path where I tend to embrace it and provide an outlet for people to better manage it to the point where they don't feel like they need it but know that it's there in the event that they do.

We all know how to punch someone in the face really hard. But it's not something we feel like we need to do, But it's there if we need to use it.

 

[drop bear]

I know it can be done under one gym. But a lot of TMA school don't embrace fighting as a healthy thing. For me I embrace fighting and violence in general. Fighting and violence shouldn't be treated as a disease that humans have. Like everything else, there's just a positive way to do it that allows growth and a destructive way to do it that causes misery. Most TMAs go down that "less violence" path where I tend to embrace it and provide an outlet for people to better manage it to the point where they don't feel like they need it but know that it's there in the event that they do.

We all know how to punch someone in the face really hard. But it's not something we feel like we need to do, But it's there if we need to use it.

And so. (And we took a long time getting here) The onus is on the club to provide the sort of quality training that produces the results it claims. Rather than claiming the students have some sort of inherent weakness. At least as a general rule.

And we don't have to compromise going to viable schools for the sake of enjoyment or because our priorities are not fighting as we can get both.

And different schools will tend to produce different results and even have different cultures.

And so we can compare schools and systems to see which ones give the most benefits.

Which will then make the schools or systems that are actually producing a product that is viable stand out from the ones that are not.

Rather than lumping all schools and systems together because at the end of the day who cares what sort of results you get.

 

[dvcochran]

Want to see a YouBoob video about how muay thai is useless?

Using YouBoob as a reference is... questionable... to say the least.

Hilarious.

 

[Bruce7]

Sorry, but I dont quite understand.
Also sorry if this comes out as a Hypocrytical response but I actually dont get what you are trying to say,
I am tired, got punched in the face,.. a lot today (was fun) so I hope you can understand.
Thanks ^^

It is a satire mint to be funny, yet small pieces of true are put in like Mayweather carrying the MMA fighter.
I though it was well done. He is not really saying Mauy Thai is not useful in the street.

 

[Bruce7]

You can do both by the way. Have a system that works and have a positive uplifting atmosphere.

Martial arts for PTSD is a perfect example.

Excellent video, thanks

 

[DocWard]

I know it can be done under one gym. But a lot of TMA school don't embrace fighting as a healthy thing. For me I embrace fighting and violence in general. Fighting and violence shouldn't be treated as a disease that humans have. Like everything else, there's just a positive way to do it that allows growth and a destructive way to do it that causes misery. Most TMAs go down that "less violence" path where I tend to embrace it and provide an outlet for people to better manage it to the point where they don't feel like they need it but know that it's there in the event that they do.

We all know how to punch someone in the face really hard. But it's not something we feel like we need to do, But it's there if we need to use it.

I believe I understand what you are saying, and if so, I agree with you. I've spent my adult life training for violence, as an Army Reservist and in the National Guard. I've also been a competitive shooter, which, while possibly more abstract than the martial arts even, has worked to keep skills honed. Obviously, there are the martial arts as well. During all that time, I've been of the belief that violence should be avoided, that we should attempt to make smart decisions in where we go, in how we go about our day, so as to limit our exposure to danger and potential violence. Clearly, in the military, that is not necessarily always an option. I was trained to move to the sound of bullets, but even there, lessons learned can be utilized in daily life. Once the necessity of violence arises, "embrace" it, as you said. Be decisive, and use the training you've been given and the weapons at your disposal, be they firearms or fists, to end the violence as quickly as possible to your advantage. There are exceptions, such as the staggering, drunken friend or the child with mental health issues, where we need to be judicious in our use of our skills. But, if forced into an altercation, quick and decisive violence visited upon the other is the best hope for survival without injury.

 

[JowGaWolf]

And so. (And we took a long time getting here) The onus is on the club to provide the sort of quality training that produces the results it claims. Rather than claiming the students have some sort of inherent weakness. At least as a general rule.

And we don't have to compromise going to viable schools for the sake of enjoyment or because our priorities are not fighting as we can get both.

And different schools will tend to produce different results and even have different cultures.

And so we can compare schools and systems to see which ones give the most benefits.

Which will then make the schools or systems that are actually producing a product that is viable stand out from the ones that are not.

Rather than lumping all schools and systems together because at the end of the day who cares what sort of results you get.

Yes all of that is correct. You can still lump schools together especially if they train under the same association or company. Those schools would be restricted to operate according to the organization standard. But in terms of fighting much of the responsibility is going to be on the student. I can teach you Jow Ga but it up to you to try to use it. There's no way I can force some to use Jow Ga techniques. I can encourage you but you would need to put forthe effort and attepts to using Jow Ga techniques.

Out of curiosity are you trying to prove something to me or someone else? If it's to me then I don't know what you are trying to highlight.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I believe I understand what you are saying, and if so, I agree with you. I've spent my adult life training for violence, as an Army Reservist and in the National Guard. I've also been a competitive shooter, which, while possibly more abstract than the martial arts even, has worked to keep skills honed. Obviously, there are the martial arts as well. During all that time, I've been of the belief that violence should be avoided, that we should attempt to make smart decisions in where we go, in how we go about our day, so as to limit our exposure to danger and potential violence. Clearly, in the military, that is not necessarily always an option. I was trained to move to the sound of bullets, but even there, lessons learned can be utilized in daily life. Once the necessity of violence arises, "embrace" it, as you said. Be decisive, and use the training you've been given and the weapons at your disposal, be they firearms or fists, to end the violence as quickly as possible to your advantage. There are exceptions, such as the staggering, drunken friend or the child with mental health issues, where we need to be judicious in our use of our skills. But, if forced into an altercation, quick and decisive violence visited upon the other is the best hope for survival without injury.

Correct. It's just really difficult to be good at something if the person doesn't embrace it. Being good at violent acts doesn't mean the person is out of control. For me, I control my violence it's a part of me. It's not an addictive thing that controls me. I don't go out trying to satisfy some kind of blood thirst. I rather not fight in the streets, but if I have to then I'm not going to try to Fight the act of being violent while being violent, while fighting against someone who is trying to hurt me. That's 2 vs one. Me fighting myself and my attacker fighting me.

Another way to look at it is like a drug addict looks at recovery. Drug addicts usually don't recover until they embrace that they have a problem. They can't avoid it, they have face it full on in all of it's ugliness.

Here is my mental process of Martial Arts.
1. Martial Arts teaches techniques that were designed to hurt other people and in some cases kill other people
2. I want to be really good with the Martial Arts that I train.
3. The reality of me being good with the Martial Arts that I train is that I become really good with the ability to hurt and in some cases kill other people.
4. In order for me to good at hurting other people using Martial Arts techniques that were created to hurt other people, Then I have to embrace the violence of it and embrace my own violence.

When I practice my staff I'm not thinking " Man I look good doing this form, I'm a badass"
When I practice my staff I'm thinking " Break bone, disarm. Poke face, smash skull, Damage knee, hit joints and hands." I can't be good at fighting if I'm more focused on looking good than hitting my targets and understanding what my strikes have the potential to do.

I can't embrace what needs to be done if part of me is telling me how wrong it is to be violent. It's enough for me to fight against an attacker without fighting against myself. I can't have the "Angel and Devil" fighting each on my shoulders. I need both of them to be on the same page so don't get my face kicked in or worse kill. They can argue after the deed is done.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So you think there are a different bunch of guys going to these gyms. These fighters, non fighters going to one and the fighters really fighters going to another.

Even though there is no real restriction as to who goes to what gym.

And definitely not the system that is not providing the right tools to make students succeed.

It's not about restriction, but about attraction. People go to a place that they think fits what they're looking for. A reputedly good fight gym is going to attract folks looking for what they think that entails. Most TMA (and SD) schools specifically market "we can teach anyone" language. They can (in most cases, anyway) improve anyone's skill, but that wording probably doesn't attract folks who want to get right to fighting ability. Preconceived notions about MMA (fostered by some TV shows and videos of grueling training) also feed into that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you want to get in shape you get in shape. If you want to fight you fight. If you want a social group it's a social group.

Fighters and hobbyists are the same people.

If you think you can't have all of that in one gym you are striving to be mediocre.

You can have all of that...with a big enough group. Back when I was training my hardest in NGA, there were plenty of young bucks and experienced healthy people to train hard with. I can't train my hardest at that school now (even though I can't train as hard now as I could then). The population there has aged, and is smaller. So they manage pretty much 2 out of 3 at best (sometimes I doubt many are going hard enough to get in shape).

The bigger the population, the easier it is to find willing folks go hard, folks who want to make friends, and people who want to "explore the art". There will even be a few who fall into all three groups, but most won't.

 

[Steve]

It's not about restriction, but about attraction. People go to a place that they think fits what they're looking for. A reputedly good fight gym is going to attract folks looking for what they think that entails. Most TMA (and SD) schools specifically market "we can teach anyone" language. They can (in most cases, anyway) improve anyone's skill, but that wording probably doesn't attract folks who want to get right to fighting ability. Preconceived notions about MMA (fostered by some TV shows and videos of grueling training) also feed into that.

The part of this that I question is the part where you say, "They can (in most cases, anyway) improve anyone's skill." I believe the opposite is generally true. If you go to a fighting school, fitness is a necessary component. Your fitness level will improve because that's part of learning to fight. The converse, however, is not true.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The part of this that I question is the part where you say, "They can (in most cases, anyway) improve anyone's skill." I believe the opposite is generally true. If you go to a fighting school, fitness is a necessary component. Your fitness level will improve because that's part of learning to fight. The converse, however, is not true.

I'm not sure I follow the link between those folks being able to teach a skill, and being able to deliver fitness. You lost me.

 

[drop bear]

Yes all of that is correct. You can still lump schools together especially if they train under the same association or company. Those schools would be restricted to operate according to the organization standard. But in terms of fighting much of the responsibility is going to be on the student. I can teach you Jow Ga but it up to you to try to use it. There's no way I can force some to use Jow Ga techniques. I can encourage you but you would need to put forthe effort and attepts to using Jow Ga techniques.

Out of curiosity are you trying to prove something to me or someone else? If it's to me then I don't know what you are trying to highlight.

I was bringing all my ramblings back together.

The original concern being should we even judge a system on viability?

 

[drop bear]

It's not about restriction, but about attraction. People go to a place that they think fits what they're looking for. A reputedly good fight gym is going to attract folks looking for what they think that entails. Most TMA (and SD) schools specifically market "we can teach anyone" language. They can (in most cases, anyway) improve anyone's skill, but that wording probably doesn't attract folks who want to get right to fighting ability. Preconceived notions about MMA (fostered by some TV shows and videos of grueling training) also feed into that.

You have noticed I have been presenting the "we can teach anyone" vibe from gyms that also teach skills effectively.

So I am not sure what you are suggesting that is the attraction difference.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You have noticed I have been presenting the "we can teach anyone" vibe from gyms that also teach skills effectively.

So I am not sure what you are suggesting that is the attraction difference.

I haven't had a chance to watch the videos you posted, so I can't speak to that. All I can do is point out that we all choose where to train. And we choose based upon things we do and don't want. I've had folks decide not to train with me because I spend "too much time on exercise" (about 10 minutes on warm-up and exercise at the beginning of a 90-minute class). And people train at the level they wish. When I was attending 10 classes a week, nearly everyone else at that same school - with the same options I had - was training once or twice a week. How do you explain their decision? They chose their priorities, and acted accordingly.

 

[drop bear]

I haven't had a chance to watch the videos you posted, so I can't speak to that. All I can do is point out that we all choose where to train. And we choose based upon things we do and don't want. I've had folks decide not to train with me because I spend "too much time on exercise" (about 10 minutes on warm-up and exercise at the beginning of a 90-minute class). And people train at the level they wish. When I was attending 10 classes a week, nearly everyone else at that same school - with the same options I had - was training once or twice a week. How do you explain their decision? They chose their priorities, and acted accordingly.

Interesting. Because looking at the marketing of self defense schools. They seem to think that a person's priorities in joining would maby look something like this.

There seems to be this theme of people just cleaning house.

 

[drop bear]

And one more for the giggles.

Who am I trying to attract with this?

 

[JowGaWolf]

I was bringing all my ramblings back together.

The original concern being should we even judge a system on viability?

Oh ok. Thanks for clearing that up for me. I didn't know where you were heading on it. That's a good point. Usually a system would have to be extremely bad and questionable before I even start asking myself is a system is viable. For me I'm usually questioning the instructor. I don't mind if the instructor doesn't know something, but I do mind when the instructor tries to make stuff up to fill in the holes. I would rather have an instructor that can admit that they don't know and then have the energy to find out the answer.


When things get to 3 levels above this (with 10th level being sure that a system is good) then I question the system. This is a level 0 for me. At this point I'm no longer questioning the system but the sanity of the people taking part in it.

My belief is that most martial arts are pretty solid. The biggest concern is just finding a Good teacher that knows their stuff, specifically knows what you actually want to learn be it real fighting, extreme karate, or tricking. Me trying to teach TKD tricking would basically make me a McDojo. That is so far out of my box.

I guess it all comes back. To the mental perception some of the teachers have. 35 years of Kung Fu and demos but never used it in sparring may give a person the assumption that they can actually use it. For me personally I've seen this happen with only 5 years of Kung Fu. And it's probably really easy to overestimate one's ability if for the majority of the time a student is saying ouch every time you block a punch. I can see how that could skew reality.

But to wrap it up. I know I question the system last. Question the student first, then the teacher, then the system.

 

[JowGaWolf]

And one more for the giggles.

Who am I trying to attract with this?

I'm not sure who they are trying to attack but it looked good to me. lol. Here's what I got from it.
1. Younger crowd
2. Older guys who refuse to be old
3. Someone who doesn't like their martial arts extremely traditional but enjoy a little tradition
4. Something modern and not old (punching pads, heavy bag, music).
5. Fun bunch who was at the end.
6. People who train hard. I know one of the big selling points for some of the people who signed up under my old school is that we did traditional body conditioning. Aka punch and kick each other.
7. The self-defense part didn't stick out to me. I saw it, but it really didn't register as self-defense.

If I had to make an assumption then I would say that these guys probably train hard. If I went to their school saw that they didn't, then I would be really disappointed.


EDIT: This was what I was picking up from it, but they could be trying to put out an entirely different message that is lost on me. I'm pretty sure my life in martial arts is skewing some of what I think I'm seeing. I could be self-reflecting and being reminded of the stuff I used to do at the old school.

 

[Steve]

I'm not sure I follow the link between those folks being able to teach a skill, and being able to deliver fitness. You lost me.

If in the pursuit of skill development you get fit, fitness is intrinsic to the activity. In other words, you will not help but become more fit. However, if fitness is the primary goal, developing any skill is not given. And we see a lot of evidence that skill development falls by the wayside. Essentially, the school becomes a formalized tae bo school.