Is there a word for this type of school?

[skribs]

The Taekwondo schools I have attended, I would not say are either a mcdojo nor bullshido. But, I would say they're something adjacent.

The typical definition of a mcdojo is that they have guaranteed rewards. If you train at a mcodjo for X time, you get X belt. Typically this will be a 1-year path to black belt. If you pay your $2000 fee at the start of training, and regularly show up for a year, you're a black belt! Doesn't matter how much you know. This isn't the case where I've been. Some folks will follow the minimum path to get black belt (2.5-3 years at my previous school), others will take much longer. There was one student who started a month before me, and he got his 1st degree the same time I got my 3rd. That wouldn't happen in a mcdojo. We had testing every 2 months. Some of the really young kids took 8 months, or even more, to get to their first test, because of their maturity issues. That wouldn't happen at a mcdojo, either.

Then there's bullshido. The idea that what is being taught at the school is poor quality or ineffective. I'm not going to pretend to agree with every individual technique or curriculum piece from any Taekwondo school I've been to. However, the vast majority of what was taught was effective, and high quality. As a simple example, when watching my Masters perform their forms, they are very impressive. The students range from very impressive (for their belt level) to "memorized the movements" to "can do the form correctly on the fifth try with a lot of guidance." And I am specifically looking at upper color belts and lower black belts for this discussion.

The quality of the teacher is there. The quality of the teaching is there. But the quality control of the student is not. If one goes to one of these schools with the intention of learning martial arts, they can receive good instruction and turn that into good ability, and generally progress relatively quickly compared to their peers. If one goes to one of these schools with the intention of just doing something, they won't get their black belt as fast, nor be as good when they get there. But they will most likely eventually get it.

Do we in the community have a term for these schools, that aren't quite a mcdojo, and aren't quite bullshido, but also don't seem to hold the students to a high standard?

 

[Dirty Dog]

All too often, that's what's called a "commercial" school.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

You seem to be saying two different things in the second and third paragraph about your school(s), unless I'm misunderstanding something. In the 2nd, you say that your school, testing is not automatic, and only happens when the student reaches the appropriate skill level to rank up. In the 3rd, you say that your school will have students at the same level with varying levels of skill.

If they reached the appropriate skill level to rank up, then there should not be that much variation of skill among people at the same level. What am I missing?

 

[skribs]

You seem to be saying two different things in the second and third paragraph about your school(s), unless I'm misunderstanding something. In the 2nd, you say that your school, testing is not automatic, and only happens when the student reaches the appropriate skill level to rank up. In the 3rd, you say that your school will have students at the same level with varying levels of skill.

If they reached the appropriate skill level to rank up, then there should not be that much variation of skill among people at the same level. What am I missing?

I'm specifically speaking about my old school in this reply, because I do not have enough experience at my new school to say for sure.

At my old school, testing was primarily based on memorization. For example, a green belt to test for blue belt would need to know:

• Advanced punch combination #1-8
• Advanced kick combination #1-8
• Advanced jump kick combination #1-5
• Advanced Form #1-3
• Green belt punch defense #1-5
• Green belt kick defense #1-5
• (Adults) Green belt grab defense #1-5

In order to test, you needed to memorize all of those, to the level of knowing where to step with each foot, and what to do with each hand in a technique. For example, in a self-defense, knowing to step diagonally forward-left with the left leg, do an open-hand outside block with the left hand, and so on.

One person may do the combination incredibly crisp. Another person incredibly sloppy. But as long as they hit the important points, they would pass. Which I think is fine for lower levels. But as you start getting up into blue and red belt, and even 1st and 2nd degree black belt, and you have students that still have an incredible amount of slop and bad habits.

So regarding my 2nd paragraph, if it took a student a year to learn all of the above, then it took a year for them to test. If it took 2 months for them to memorize it and it was incredibly sloppy, they might be forced to wait 4 or 6 months, usually showing very minor improvement, and then be allowed to test. Others learned it in 2, 4, or 6 months, but learned it very well.

The third paragraph is talking about the level of detail, crispness, power, etc. that folks have, as well as how many bad habits remain.

 

[Dirty Dog]

At my old school, testing was primarily based on memorization. For example, a green belt to test for blue belt would need to know:

I think this says a lot. Some schools base training on memorization. Some on understanding of the underlying principles.

It's absolutely easier to test memorization. But understanding is vastly more important.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I'm specifically speaking about my old school in this reply, because I do not have enough experience at my new school to say for sure.

At my old school, testing was primarily based on memorization. For example, a green belt to test for blue belt would need to know:

• Advanced punch combination #1-8
• Advanced kick combination #1-8
• Advanced jump kick combination #1-5
• Advanced Form #1-3
• Green belt punch defense #1-5
• Green belt kick defense #1-5
• (Adults) Green belt grab defense #1-5

In order to test, you needed to memorize all of those, to the level of knowing where to step with each foot, and what to do with each hand in a technique. For example, in a self-defense, knowing to step diagonally forward-left with the left leg, do an open-hand outside block with the left hand, and so on.

One person may do the combination incredibly crisp. Another person incredibly sloppy. But as long as they hit the important points, they would pass. Which I think is fine for lower levels. But as you start getting up into blue and red belt, and even 1st and 2nd degree black belt, and you have students that still have an incredible amount of slop and bad habits.

So regarding my 2nd paragraph, if it took a student a year to learn all of the above, then it took a year for them to test. If it took 2 months for them to memorize it and it was incredibly sloppy, they might be forced to wait 4 or 6 months, usually showing very minor improvement, and then be allowed to test. Others learned it in 2, 4, or 6 months, but learned it very well.

The third paragraph is talking about the level of detail, crispness, power, etc. that folks have, as well as how many bad habits remain.

So based on your description, and because you asked, I would classify this as 'bullshido', or at least as close to it as possible. If people are reaching 2nd degree black belt, with sloppy technique and bad habits, especially if it is due to a focus of memorizing rather than learning application and/or proper technique (which is a focus set by the school), then those that do well are doing well despite their instruction, not because of it. They would likely do well at any school, but those that have sloppy technique would be better off at a school that focused on technique.

 

[skribs]

So based on your description, and because you asked, I would classify this as 'bullshido', or at least as close to it as possible. If people are reaching 2nd degree black belt, with sloppy technique and bad habits, especially if it is due to a focus of memorizing rather than learning application and/or proper technique (which is a focus set by the school), then those that do well are doing well despite their instruction, not because of it. They would likely do well at any school, but those that have sloppy technique would be better off at a school that focused on technique.

If the instructor at the school were the quality of those sloppy students, then most people would not be capable of succeeding.

Have you not ever told a group of people something and had half of them misunderstand it?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

If the instructor at the school were the quality of those sloppy students, then most people would not be capable of succeeding.

2 different quality issues-quality of doing vs. quality of teaching. With quality of doing being bad, then yes most people won't succeed. If quality of doing is good, but quality of teaching is bad, then it is different. In those situations, students can succeed, but in spite of the school, not because of it.

From what you described, the issue is with the quality of teaching.

Have you not ever told a group of people something and had half of them misunderstand it?

Yes, I have. In martial arts, in boy scouts, church groups, and in tutoring.

In each of those, if people misunderstood something, I realized that was either
A: a fault on my end, and I needed to find a better way to teach it,
B: a fault on their end (not paying attention, purposefully misinterpreting, etc), and I needed to find a better way to connect with them,
C: nobodies fault, some people just learn differently, so I needed to find a different way to teach it, or
D: someone who learns slower, so I'll need to spend more time with them on it. Note, this doesn't take away time from other people, as that time isn't all at once, but they'll spend longer learning it then others (or stay after to work with me on it if they're willing/able).

For all the options, there is a solution. Maybe not in a short time period, but if there are years to work with them, the solution should be reached. There are very few instances I can think of where there was not one, way way way less than half, and those all have some specific reason (mostly developmental disorders and one brain trauma) for it.

 

[isshinryuronin]

The quality of the teacher is there. The quality of the teaching is there. But the quality control of the student is not.

You say the quality of the teacher is there - well, maybe the potential quality is there, as quality of the student at a particular rank is a measure of the quality of the teacher. This lack of quality control on the part of the teacher is, to me, disrespecting the art.

I understand that commercial concerns exist, and some compromise may be needed to keep the school afloat, but if the school cannot maintain its base without turning out slop, perhaps it should be closed and the owner find work doing something he can be proud of.

I may be idealistic sounding, and I will admit that my values here were forged in karate's heyday in the late 60's and early 70's - a different business climate than today. Still, if I found myself in the situation described in the above paragraph, I would maintain my values and cease teaching as a livelihood and settle for a few handpicked students to share my love of the art.

 

[J. Pickard]

I would say this is what happens when the head of the school relies on the school as their sole source of income. "commercial" is what I would call it. Typically the thought process goes something like " The slackers that just want the belt are the ones that pay the bills, keep the doors open, and keep me fed so that I can focus on helping the serious/good students." It also becomes a problem when the school gets too big and there aren't enough instructors. Personally, I would never run my dojang in this way but I will also never make as much money as the people who do.

 

[jks9199]

Allow me to suggest that you're getting hung up on words and descriptions.

Any commercial school is a business. They will have to deliver a product that customers want to buy. This is slightly less true of noncommercial schools -- but only slightly because if they don't get new students to stick around, they'll die -- so they still have to try to present a product that students want.

If you're happy with the quality of what you're getting and it's what you want -- then it's fine. Some people go to a gym, and want to be powerlifters or body builders -- others are just trying to stave of old age and infirmity.

 

[drop bear]

A pyramid scheme?

 

[HighKick]

The Taekwondo schools I have attended, I would not say are either a mcdojo nor bullshido. But, I would say they're something adjacent.

The typical definition of a mcdojo is that they have guaranteed rewards. If you train at a mcodjo for X time, you get X belt. Typically this will be a 1-year path to black belt. If you pay your $2000 fee at the start of training, and regularly show up for a year, you're a black belt! Doesn't matter how much you know. This isn't the case where I've been. Some folks will follow the minimum path to get black belt (2.5-3 years at my previous school), others will take much longer. There was one student who started a month before me, and he got his 1st degree the same time I got my 3rd. That wouldn't happen in a mcdojo. We had testing every 2 months. Some of the really young kids took 8 months, or even more, to get to their first test, because of their maturity issues. That wouldn't happen at a mcdojo, either.

Then there's bullshido. The idea that what is being taught at the school is poor quality or ineffective. I'm not going to pretend to agree with every individual technique or curriculum piece from any Taekwondo school I've been to. However, the vast majority of what was taught was effective, and high quality. As a simple example, when watching my Masters perform their forms, they are very impressive. The students range from very impressive (for their belt level) to "memorized the movements" to "can do the form correctly on the fifth try with a lot of guidance." And I am specifically looking at upper color belts and lower black belts for this discussion.

The quality of the teacher is there. The quality of the teaching is there. But the quality control of the student is not. If one goes to one of these schools with the intention of learning martial arts, they can receive good instruction and turn that into good ability, and generally progress relatively quickly compared to their peers. If one goes to one of these schools with the intention of just doing something, they won't get their black belt as fast, nor be as good when they get there. But they will most likely eventually get it.
Body
Do we in the community have a term for these schools, that aren't quite a mcdojo, and aren't quite bullshido, but also don't seem to hold the students to a high standard?

This is the description of every commercial school to a Tee.

I do wonder if you are looking at practice & progression through a 'Lemming' lens. Never will everyone in a class look and do things the same. Even when everyone is doing them correctly. Body types and genetics dictate this more than anything else. Even things like height will make the same technique look different.
Evaluating things purely off of how they 'look' can be a slippery slope.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I called the Humane Society and they told me that a dead horse is a dead horse even when you turn it around. They also told me that beating won't make you happier about that horse.

Move on. No matter what others say. If you like your school then that is all that matters. If you want to be able to use your martial arts then you need to put in the work and that includes sparring at a level where punches are hard enough to not want to be hit often.

 

[JowGaWolf]

At this point it seems like you are trying to validate your past martial arts training as you do not ask the same about your current school. Move on. I'm not sure who got into your head, but you are using alot of energy to keep them there.

 

[skribs]

At this point it seems like you are trying to validate your past martial arts training as you do not ask the same about your current school. Move on. I'm not sure who got into your head, but you are using alot of energy to keep them there.

I've noticed similar things at my current school. I don't have much time here yet to see why those things are the way they are, so I've focused on the place I spent 9 years instead of the place I've spent one month.

These are my own observations and opinions, not anyone else's.

You are so far off the mark, I'm not even sure you landed on the same planet.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I've noticed similar things at my current school. I don't have much time here yet to see why those things are the way they are, so I've focused on the place I spent 9 years instead of the place I've spent one month.

These are my own observations and opinions, not anyone else's.

You are so far off the mark, I'm not even sure you landed on the same planet.

I'm pretty sure by now when you mention mcdojo and bullshido and then go into how long it takes to get black belts, that you are heading in the same direction but on a different path.

Focus on your training. If you want to learn application then get alot of sparring and alot of trial and error experience by trying to actually use the techniques. If you don't care about application then just do drills. You are making things way too complicated.

Figure out where you want your standards to be. Don't let the school define it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I've noticed similar things at my current school. I don't have much time here yet to see why those things are the way they are, so I've focused on the place I spent 9 years instead of the place I've spent one month.

These are my own observations and opinions, not anyone else's.

You are so far off the mark, I'm not even sure you landed on the same planet.

I'm pretty sure by now when you mention mcdojo and bullshido and then go into how long it takes to get black belts, that you are heading in the same direction but on a different path.

Focus on your training. If you want to learn application then get alot of sparring and alot of trial and error experience by trying to actually use the techniques. If you don't care about application then just do drills. You are making things way too complicated.

Figure out where you want your standards to be. Don't let the school define it

At this point it seems like you are trying to validate your past martial arts training as you do not ask the same about your current school. Move on. I'm not sure who got into your head, but you are using alot of energy to keep them there.

You can disagree but your history follows you as if you hyper focused on things being legit or set to happen by the numbers. If I went to a tkd school that told me that I could earn my black belt in 5 years then I would make sure I could apply all the majority of the techniques taught. If the school doesn't have a wide range of techniques then I wouldn't join. That is my standard that I set for myself.

What is your standard? Not the one the school tells you. But the one you set for yourself.

 

[skribs]

I'm pretty sure by now when you mention mcdojo and bullshido and then go into how long it takes to get black belts, that you are heading in the same direction but on a different path.

Focus on your training. If you want to learn application then get alot of sparring and alot of trial and error experience by trying to actually use the techniques. If you don't care about application then just do drills. You are making things way too complicated.

Figure out where you want your standards to be. Don't let the school define it

You can disagree but your history follows you as if you hyper focused on things being legit or set to happen by the numbers. If I went to a tkd school that told me that I could earn my black belt in 5 years then I would make sure I could apply all the majority of the techniques taught. If the school doesn't have a wide range of techniques then I wouldn't join. That is my standard that I set for myself.

What is your standard? Not the one the school tells you. But the one you set for yourself.

I don't even understand what you're trying to say at this point. But even if it made sense, it would probably be wrong.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don't even understand what you're trying to say at this point. But even if it made sense, it would probably be wrong.

Answer this simple question. What is your standard for the martial arts you train. How do you measure your own quality?