Is it wise to study two styles at once?

[Badger1777]

My current style, Tang soo do, is in my opinion brilliant. As someone who studied both karate and kung fu in my youth, I can see strengths of both in TSD. I have only one slight criticism. TSD is all about finishing a fight before it goes to the floor, so there are lots of strikes and throws and things, but not much for that dreaded but sooner or later inevitable situation, where you lose your footing and go down.

So I was thinking there is a Brazillion Ju Jutsu club in town, and I was thinking of giving it a go.

But, here's the thing. When I was young and I did both karate and kung fu, I had to give up karate because I found too many fundamental differences. As our master said, 'karate is like fire, it defeats through rage and ferocity. Kung fu is like water, it is gentle and calm, but can erode the hardest rock, and water can always extinguish fire' (the latter point, I have no doubt, a subtle dig at karate

Now, more than 20 years on, some of the things that hold back my progress in TSD is that some moves are so similar to kung fu moves I learned years ago that 'muscle memory' makes me do the kung fu version rather than the version I am being taught.

So, I'm not sure what to do really. It seems there are pros and cons to mixing in another style.

I should point out that my motivation for training is not to win a fight. It is my intention, and always has been, to never fight for real if I can help it. Its just that its kind of my philosophy that if you're going to spend time, money and energy on anything, you should go all out and do the best you can do.

 

[donald1]

Extend your knowledge, learn as much as you can but know one thing. Be patient, after you have been in a style for a while then it might be okay to do more. Preferably at where you are comfortable with what you're doing and have some understanding of what your doing. I too practice karate and have had some training in Kung fu

Do what you like, train as good as you can, don't give up, as long as your serious about learning, put effort in, and pay attention its good learning
Best of luck

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Kung fu is like water, ...

The "water" strategy is just one of many other strategies that most Kung Fu system use.

It's better to master one style (at least 3 years) before you jump into another style.

For example, the

- Baji system power generation is different from the Win Chun system power generation.
- Shuai-Chiao system circular running is different from the Bagua system circular walking.
- Long fist system body alignment is different from the Win Chun system body alignment.
- MT roundhouse kick is different from the TKD roundhouse kick.
- Boxing hook punch is different from the CLF haymaker.
- ...

If you train both at the same time, you may confuse yourself big time.

 

[Hanzou]

Brazilian Jiu-jitsu is so different from TSD that it won't be a problem. Bjj will compliment your striking skills very well. You should definitely go for it if you have the opportunity to train in both.

 

[arnisador]

When I was young and I did both karate and kung fu, I had to give up karate because I found too many fundamental differences.

Yes, I'd generally advise against this, at least until someone is very good at one of them. Too many motions that are grossly similar--a punch is a punch is a punch--but not nearly enough so--a karate punch is not a kung fu punch is not a boxing punch.

Brazilian Jiu-jitsu is so different from TSD that it won't be a problem. Bjj will compliment your striking skills very well. You should definitely go for it if you have the opportunity to train in both.

Agreed. You should see little to no conflict and lots of complementarity here. If you have time and energy and money enough for both--do both!

 

[drop bear]

Yeah you can do two at once the trick is to be in the moment learning the martial art you are learning. So say if you do karate and boxing and where you could karate your way out of a situation in a boxing class don't. Learn the skills they are trying to teach.

Like you don't get confused learning a new martial art anyway.

Within one session I can box kick box wrestle bjj and MMA. I can turn up the pace and dial it down at will and can also train for specific scenarios within that depending on what I want to work on. So I can be an aggressive fighter or a counter fighter at will.

In training you will be forced out of your comfort zone anyway. That is how you progress.

And I am not very bright.

You will be fine. Just stfu about how you would do things in your other style.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Brazilian Jiu-jitsu is so different from TSD that it won't be a problem. Bjj will compliment your striking skills very well. You should definitely go for it if you have the opportunity to train in both.

Can one train

- long fist (a striking art), and
- Shuai Chiao (a grappling art)

at the same time? I believe he can. There is no conflict between these 2 styles. But he still have to build up his

- striking art foundation from the long fist system, and
- grappling art foundation from the Shuai Chiao system.

He just can't build up his striking art foundation from the long fist system and the Win Chun system at the same time. I had tried this approach. It didn't work at all. Many years ago, I started a class that taught

- Win Chun for the 1st hour, and
- long fist for the 2nd hour.

Students were confused big time. I had to stop that class after one month.

 

[punisher73]

I don't think it is a good idea to try and learn two different striking systems at the same time because of different body mechanics.

Striking and grappling isn't much of a problem body mechanic wise. If it is available you might consider Judo. Judo blends well with karate since they both start standing and you will find many throws from Judo in your TSD/Karate already. Judo also has groundwork in it, so you can still learn what to do etc. since you don't want to specialize in just that.

BJJ is a great art, but make sure that the school you choose focuses on going from standing to the ground and also self-defense considerations. And never forget the TSD mindset that you still want to get to your feet as quickly as possible and not purposely stay on the ground.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I think it can be good to study two styles at once if the styles are radically different. For instance, training in both Karate and Judo can be very beneficial since the two styles are very different. Karate focuses on striking and Judo focuses on throwing and grappling so by training in both you can get the best of both worlds. However, training in similar styles can be a bit confusing and I wouldn't recommend that for beginners.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Badger

How long have you been studying the TSD, and why are you studying it? Now I'm not trying to put down TSD, but my question does help frame whether you should study two styles at once. I'm not against studying two different styles and I know (before any one points it out that BJJ and TSD are vastly different) but if your question about if you should mix two styles is an honest one (and I'm taking it that it is) then think hard about my question and it could save you some money and frustration in the process.

The question of how long have you been studying TSD as an adult helps to frame your experience level.

The question of why are you studying it helps to frame the answer to why study a grappling art and a striking art.

My current style, Tang soo do, is in my opinion brilliant. As someone who studied both karate and kung fu in my youth, I can see strengths of both in TSD. I have only one slight criticism. TSD is all about finishing a fight before it goes to the floor, so there are lots of strikes and throws and things, but not much for that dreaded but sooner or later inevitable situation, where you lose your footing and go down.

So I was thinking there is a Brazillion Ju Jutsu club in town, and I was thinking of giving it a go.

If you are planning on competing in a MMA type competition then it is a given to be a decent competitor you need to have some sort of background in ground work along with a stand up game. Enough said, go with the BJJ it is a proven effective system, and the TSD is also a good striking art and since you like it stay there.

But if you are not planning on the MMA type of events then, this is where the answer to your question gets murky and I go back to question #2 about why are you studying martial arts in the first place.

TSD is all about finishing a fight before it goes to the floor, so there are lots of strikes and throws and things, but not much for that dreaded but sooner or later inevitable situation, where you lose your footing and go down.

If you aren't trying to compete in an MMA type of sport, or you have no plans on meeting in the back alleys to try and test yourself against other street thugs, than why do you think you couldn't fight for real on the ground? I mean TSD has all types of strikes and kicks that even on the ground you can employ you just have to train for them. But this can be accomplished with kicking shields and focus mits and a training partner. I say this because training for them on the ground like this can further enhance your training in TSD and your understanding of that art as well as self defense. Plus you are staying in the art you like and are comfortable with while at the same time doing something that is out of your element thus forcing you to grow.

Now, more than 20 years on, some of the things that hold back my progress in TSD is that some moves are so similar to kung fu moves I learned years ago that 'muscle memory' makes me do the kung fu version rather than the version I am being taught.

Now I'm not sure which moves you mean here, but if you are talking about stances and things that can be a problem, but one you can get over. However you might also be over complicating or over thinking things as well. For instance in the systems that I teach, I recognize and embrace, that they are not "pure" arts that were passed onto me from the GM or the creator of the systems. I'm not studying or teaching historical heirlooms or something that cannot and should not be changed. So I started with the mindset to focus on more of the self defense(SD) side of the process and I adapt principles or techniques that I learned in Wado, Modern Arnis, or other arts but filter them through the TKD forms and system I learned and that I currently teach.

For the self defense part I freely take from my Modern Arnis and apply it to the TKD, even to interpreting moves in the forms, weapons defense etc. etc. For instance last night I was teaching my students an inside leg sweep using the knife hand block as the entry; however I learned the takedown at a JKDC seminar several years before as a silat move, the chambering of the hands for the fold and the execution of the block from Wado, the stance in the block is from the TKD I learned, the hand movement of the block and such is really more of the brush grab strike application that I learned in Modern Arnis with a little of Iain Abernethy instruction thrown in for good measure. My students learn this simply as an application of the knife hand blocks found within their forms and a foot sweep.

A silat stylist would tear apart the stance because I should have been in a forward stance, a TKD GM would maybe tear apart the chamber because I chamber like a Japanese stylist, the Japanese stylist would tear apart the back stance because of weight distribution etc. etc. but who cares it works. And I'm not passing down a pure heirloom style so I'm not bound to a long dead GMs thoughts or intentions. In fact the only person who probably would have liked this application would have been GM Remy because as he said "Modern Arnis is the Art Within you Art", and I was doing what he taught me to do.

So, I'm not sure what to do really. It seems there are pros and cons to mixing in another style.

There is pros and cons to mixing styles, but ultimately you have to have a firm base to mix from. I don't think you can start mixing without good leadership or guidance, or I should say it is more effective to mix stuff when you have someone to guide you with experience. I also believe this means more than just studying a ground game and a stand up game. People mix stuff all of the time nowadays,your TSD might also be mixed and not a pure system. In fact mixing styles and learning from other instructors is common in the Filipino martial arts, as well as in the Okinawan martial arts (where karate and TKD came from) so I think it is a natural thing to do.

However the big con to mixing styles nowadays I believe is thinking I must spend my money learning a totally different system to handle my self defense needs when that system is based on a sport or a heirloom and not SD in the first place. What I mean is this, one instructor told me about how he had a discussion with another instructor on how he (and I) weren't using the sai in it's original context when I translate double stick drills and disarms from arnis using it. In other words supposedly my swinging the sai in a backhanded motion wasn't the same as them swinging it in a backhanded motion since it wasn't (perhaps) in the same stance, hip twist, etc. etc. as in the kata. My position is who cares, I'm learning how to hit the person in both contexts. A back handed strike is the same either way and frankly hitting someone with a metal rod is still going to hurt. Often times people are to close minded to see.

I mean the sai was used as a (insert application here, I've heard it was a rice planter (poking holes in the ground) or some farm implement) anyway a farmer using it to defeat a swordsman is taking it out of it's original use context. I'm sure that poor farmer's thought when going against that swordsman wasn't on proper stance or his hip twist, but on hitting the guy and surviving.

How does this relate to learning a ground based martial art? This gets back to question #2 why are you learning and studying the MAs to begin with. If you feel you need to study BJJ to learn how to fight on the ground for anything related to SD needs then I think you time would be better spent working towards that goal then spending time and effort learning a ground game that is meant for a sport. Not that BJJ is not effective for SD needs, it is. It's just if your goal is to deal with getting knocked to the ground or to escape locks etc. etc. then kicking and fighting from the ground is good, so is ripping fingers back, pulling hair, sticking you fingers in the persons eye or fish hooking their mouth, etc. etc. all of which if you do to your seniors at the BJJ school is probably going to get your butt kicked big time.

I should point out that my motivation for training is not to win a fight. It is my intention, and always has been, to never fight for real if I can help it. Its just that its kind of my philosophy that if you're going to spend time, money and energy on anything, you should go all out and do the best you can do.

In closing if you aren't planning on ever having to fight unless you are attacked and it is for real, then you can still train for that, but chances are small that you will have to use it. So maximize your training to meet your goals and enjoy it. As an example at my sensei's dojo we spared like MMA; throws, take downs, leg kicks, body blows, you know all in good clean fighting (back in the 80's when there wasn't really organized MMA). I was young and I could take it. I learned to fight on the ground getting the fingers in the eyes and such, years later I went to seminars where we did this and had to deploy knives and fight from there. That was a small part of my training (time wise in the big scheme of things) and yet if I had to I can still do it. I didn't need to learn BJJ or a ground based martial art because that type of training (for SD) met my needs. Leaving me time to pursue other arts and further my training in my main art. I agree whole heartedly with your last statement which is why I still come back to question #2.

 

[Badger1777]

That's a very good and informative reply @Mark Lynn, many thanks.

Re your first question, how long have I been training, not long. I can't remember exactly, but three or four months now I think.

Why am I studying it? Well, originally because I decided it was about time I returned to some martial arts training after leaving it alone for far too many years, and TSD was the only class locally that was remotely like kung fu or karate. However, the more I learn of it, the more I love it. So in a way, TSD was kind of the closest available to my first choice, but not my first choice. Now I thoroughly love it, and rate it better than the karate and kung fu I did years ago. I'm sure all martial arts styles are 'the best one' in their own ways, and that would include the karate and the kung fu I did years ago, but now TSD is the best one for me.

So, the answer as to 'why' is different now to when I first started. The answer to that question now is that I just love it. But to elaborate and try to be more objective, here goes.

Lets's first take what I liked years ago about martial arts in general. There's the discipline. The idea that if you're going to bother to do something, you should endeavour to do it perfectly, otherwise there's no point. Also, you have been given the gift of one of the most versatile body shapes anywhere in the animal kingdom, lets learn how to actually use it. TSD certainly has both these philosophies.

Why did I love kung fu specifically? There was at least as much focus on the mind as on the body. Even during the intensive physical training, mental focus was constantly drilled into us. Through mental development, training of the mind to achieve clarity of thought, absence of thought where appropriate (for speed of 'automatic' response), channeling of energy to either deliver more power with less apparent effort, or in the case where you get hit, to channel pain out of the body etc. All clever mind trickery to perfectly complement the physical side of the training. In fact, part of the class was not physical at all, every lesson we would meditate for a short while. The physical movements were genuine art. Everything was conceptualised as a circular motion, and every movement was put to use. If you had to block your opponent's strike, the block was also a strike on your opponent's striking limb. If you had to duck and weave, a strike would feature in the counter-balance action. Everything just sort of flows. TSD seems to have that.

What did I like about karate specifically? While kung fu focused on 'flowing', like a gentle (brutally gentle ) art, karate focused on power. While kung fu taught us to not allow any emotion get in the way, ie to be totally calm and apparently passive even in the motion of fighting, karate taught us to scream like psychotic banshees as we delivered maximum power. A good way to vent the day's frustrations TSD has all that.

So, TSD has everything I liked from karate, and everything I liked from kung fu, but it has its own qualities too. There's the gentle flowing motions that are just pure art in motion, there's the power that vents the day's frustrations, but there's also something that I'm sure other styles have, but I didn't see them, like the pure mechanics of the human body. Some of the locks and take downs for example, we had some in kung fu years ago, but they didn't seem to be core to the art like they seem to be with TSD. And its jolly good fun. Even being taken down I appreciate the pure art and mechanics of how it works.

But why am I now learning TSD or any martial art? Simply, I love it just for the art of it. I have no intention of using it if I can help it, and when I was a younger lad, and would occasionally get into a scrape for real, I remember that I didn't do either kung fu or karate, I improvised, and that almost certainly involved some moves from training, but really it was just a case of fight til I get chance to run away or restrain my opponent until they calm down (thankfully, being a pacifist, most of my scrapes were the latter, where I'd be attempting to stop someone from beating someone else up and it was usually nothing really to do with me beyond the fact that I hate to see people get hurt so will usually try to stop someone from hurting someone else if I can). So I don't expect to every use TSD in 'the street'. I just like learning different things I can make my body do that many people can't. Not for 'one-up-man-ship', just because its cool.

 

[drop bear]

Badger

How long have you been studying the TSD, and why are you studying it? Now I'm not trying to put down TSD, but my question does help frame whether you should study two styles at once. I'm not against studying two different styles and I know (before any one points it out that BJJ and TSD are vastly different) but if your question about if you should mix two styles is an honest one (and I'm taking it that it is) then think hard about my question and it could save you some money and frustration in the process.

The question of how long have you been studying TSD as an adult helps to frame your experience level.

The question of why are you studying it helps to frame the answer to why study a grappling art and a striking art.




If you are planning on competing in a MMA type competition then it is a given to be a decent competitor you need to have some sort of background in ground work along with a stand up game. Enough said, go with the BJJ it is a proven effective system, and the TSD is also a good striking art and since you like it stay there.

But if you are not planning on the MMA type of events then, this is where the answer to your question gets murky and I go back to question #2 about why are you studying martial arts in the first place.




If you aren't trying to compete in an MMA type of sport, or you have no plans on meeting in the back alleys to try and test yourself against other street thugs, than why do you think you couldn't fight for real on the ground? I mean TSD has all types of strikes and kicks that even on the ground you can employ you just have to train for them. But this can be accomplished with kicking shields and focus mits and a training partner. I say this because training for them on the ground like this can further enhance your training in TSD and your understanding of that art as well as self defense. Plus you are staying in the art you like and are comfortable with while at the same time doing something that is out of your element thus forcing you to grow.



Now I'm not sure which moves you mean here, but if you are talking about stances and things that can be a problem, but one you can get over. However you might also be over complicating or over thinking things as well. For instance in the systems that I teach, I recognize and embrace, that they are not "pure" arts that were passed onto me from the GM or the creator of the systems. I'm not studying or teaching historical heirlooms or something that cannot and should not be changed. So I started with the mindset to focus on more of the self defense(SD) side of the process and I adapt principles or techniques that I learned in Wado, Modern Arnis, or other arts but filter them through the TKD forms and system I learned and that I currently teach.

For the self defense part I freely take from my Modern Arnis and apply it to the TKD, even to interpreting moves in the forms, weapons defense etc. etc. For instance last night I was teaching my students an inside leg sweep using the knife hand block as the entry; however I learned the takedown at a JKDC seminar several years before as a silat move, the chambering of the hands for the fold and the execution of the block from Wado, the stance in the block is from the TKD I learned, the hand movement of the block and such is really more of the brush grab strike application that I learned in Modern Arnis with a little of Iain Abernethy instruction thrown in for good measure. My students learn this simply as an application of the knife hand blocks found within their forms and a foot sweep.

A silat stylist would tear apart the stance because I should have been in a forward stance, a TKD GM would maybe tear apart the chamber because I chamber like a Japanese stylist, the Japanese stylist would tear apart the back stance because of weight distribution etc. etc. but who cares it works. And I'm not passing down a pure heirloom style so I'm not bound to a long dead GMs thoughts or intentions. In fact the only person who probably would have liked this application would have been GM Remy because as he said "Modern Arnis is the Art Within you Art", and I was doing what he taught me to do.



There is pros and cons to mixing styles, but ultimately you have to have a firm base to mix from. I don't think you can start mixing without good leadership or guidance, or I should say it is more effective to mix stuff when you have someone to guide you with experience. I also believe this means more than just studying a ground game and a stand up game. People mix stuff all of the time nowadays,your TSD might also be mixed and not a pure system. In fact mixing styles and learning from other instructors is common in the Filipino martial arts, as well as in the Okinawan martial arts (where karate and TKD came from) so I think it is a natural thing to do.

However the big con to mixing styles nowadays I believe is thinking I must spend my money learning a totally different system to handle my self defense needs when that system is based on a sport or a heirloom and not SD in the first place. What I mean is this, one instructor told me about how he had a discussion with another instructor on how he (and I) weren't using the sai in it's original context when I translate double stick drills and disarms from arnis using it. In other words supposedly my swinging the sai in a backhanded motion wasn't the same as them swinging it in a backhanded motion since it wasn't (perhaps) in the same stance, hip twist, etc. etc. as in the kata. My position is who cares, I'm learning how to hit the person in both contexts. A back handed strike is the same either way and frankly hitting someone with a metal rod is still going to hurt. Often times people are to close minded to see.

I mean the sai was used as a (insert application here, I've heard it was a rice planter (poking holes in the ground) or some farm implement) anyway a farmer using it to defeat a swordsman is taking it out of it's original use context. I'm sure that poor farmer's thought when going against that swordsman wasn't on proper stance or his hip twist, but on hitting the guy and surviving.

How does this relate to learning a ground based martial art? This gets back to question #2 why are you learning and studying the MAs to begin with. If you feel you need to study BJJ to learn how to fight on the ground for anything related to SD needs then I think you time would be better spent working towards that goal then spending time and effort learning a ground game that is meant for a sport. Not that BJJ is not effective for SD needs, it is. It's just if your goal is to deal with getting knocked to the ground or to escape locks etc. etc. then kicking and fighting from the ground is good, so is ripping fingers back, pulling hair, sticking you fingers in the persons eye or fish hooking their mouth, etc. etc. all of which if you do to your seniors at the BJJ school is probably going to get your butt kicked big time.



In closing if you aren't planning on ever having to fight unless you are attacked and it is for real, then you can still train for that, but chances are small that you will have to use it. So maximize your training to meet your goals and enjoy it. As an example at my sensei's dojo we spared like MMA; throws, take downs, leg kicks, body blows, you know all in good clean fighting (back in the 80's when there wasn't really organized MMA). I was young and I could take it. I learned to fight on the ground getting the fingers in the eyes and such, years later I went to seminars where we did this and had to deploy knives and fight from there. That was a small part of my training (time wise in the big scheme of things) and yet if I had to I can still do it. I didn't need to learn BJJ or a ground based martial art because that type of training (for SD) met my needs. Leaving me time to pursue other arts and further my training in my main art. I agree whole heartedly with your last statement which is why I still come back to question #2.

Yeah OK. But why train martial arts at all if you can just gouge at peoples eyes?

 

[Mark Lynn]

Yeah OK. But why train martial arts at all if you can just gouge at peoples eyes?

Exactly.

Read Badger's post to get an idea of why people study the martial arts. They love it. Why study Kendo, Iaido, in a sword less society? Because people enjoy and it meets their needs. Why do people still study the TMA, when MMA type arts have appeared to be superior in the ring? Because people enjoy them and it meets their needs. etc. etc. Their needs may not be my needs, but that's OK. The point of my post to Badger was to try and help Badger clarify what his needs are, and what he enjoys about his TSD classes.

So the quick easy answer to your question is because we enjoy it and it meets our needs.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Badger

Thanks for the well thought out post, I kind of expected my questions to be more rhetorical, but I'm very glad you took the time to write the out and share your vies with us.

That's a very good and informative reply @Mark Lynn, many thanks.

Re your first question, how long have I been training, not long. I can't remember exactly, but three or four months now I think.

So not long, cool, it helps to know how long you have studied, because generally over time a person's view point changes.

Why am I studying it? Well, originally because I decided it was about time I returned to some martial arts training after leaving it alone for far too many years, and TSD was the only class locally that was remotely like kung fu or karate. However, the more I learn of it, the more I love it. So in a way, TSD was kind of the closest available to my first choice, but not my first choice. Now I thoroughly love it, and rate it better than the karate and kung fu I did years ago. I'm sure all martial arts styles are 'the best one' in their own ways, and that would include the karate and the kung fu I did years ago, but now TSD is the best one for me.

So, the answer as to 'why' is different now to when I first started. The answer to that question now is that I just love it. But to elaborate and try to be more objective, here goes.

You can expect that if you stay in the arts the reason as to "why" will change and evolve over the years. To put this into perspective the reason as to "why" and "how" I study the martial arts now is different than when I started 33 years ago. When I started it was on a dare or challenge from a girl friend but also a deep seated insecurity in regards to protecting oneself. The challenge was what got me in the door, the want of learning to defend myself kept me there and largely guided my study of "what" arts. A couple of years later I was in awe of them and started really devoting more time to them, then I went off to college and started teaching them, so again my view point shifted etc. etc.

My desire of learning to defend myself, led me to attending camps, weekend seminars etc. etc. on the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA), JKDC, Thai Boxing (MT), not really to fight MMA style, but to become more adaptive and to learn more effective techniques in that regard. In my instructor's home dojo we fought; utilizing leg kicks, boxing, kick boxing, take downs, knees, the wall etc. etc. and the techniques from MT, fight right in. Many times we ended the fight with one of us sticking our hand in the eyes of our opponent. But here this also lead to a conflict when I moved from the dojo, in that I was so use to sparring this way it was almost like being bipolar to adapt to the way "Normal" schools sparred. In fact I heard that one guy I sparred with one time (a fellow black belt in TKD and a co-worker) started telling people that I was a "dirty" fighter because I kicked at his legs when we sparred. Not that I hurt him in anyway because I had trained with control at my sensei's dojo (you couldn't do the fighting we did with out it) but anytime he got close enough to punch or kick me I kicked at his leg and if I got it, it screwed him up.

This is one of the negatives with training two styles at once, because this was like training two different styles of fighting, it can screw with your mind.

Anyway once I was confident in my self defense skills I could have left the martial arts but I found different arts to study and basically changed my perspective again and so on and so on. Also as I aged I have had to modify my training, my body can't take the punishment it used to when I fought at my instructor's dojo.

Lets's first take what I liked years ago about martial arts in general. There's the discipline. The idea that if you're going to bother to do something, you should endeavour to do it perfectly, otherwise there's no point. Also, you have been given the gift of one of the most versatile body shapes anywhere in the animal kingdom, lets learn how to actually use it. TSD certainly has both these philosophies.

This type of attitude will really help with your basics and your form training.

So, TSD has everything I liked from karate, and everything I liked from kung fu, but it has its own qualities too. There's the gentle flowing motions that are just pure art in motion, there's the power that vents the day's frustrations, but there's also something that I'm sure other styles have, but I didn't see them, like the pure mechanics of the human body. Some of the locks and take downs for example, we had some in kung fu years ago, but they didn't seem to be core to the art like they seem to be with TSD. And its jolly good fun. Even being taken down I appreciate the pure art and mechanics of how it works.

You know the funny thing is, is that in some arts the higher expressionsion of the art are the stuff you won't see, or won't understand as you see it. What I mean is that what you see is not what you get, almost to the point of looking fake. Different arts have different body mechanics but it is all good.

But why am I now learning TSD or any martial art? Simply, I love it just for the art of it. I have no intention of using it if I can help it, and when I was a younger lad, and would occasionally get into a scrape for real, I remember that I didn't do either kung fu or karate, I improvised, and that almost certainly involved some moves from training, but really it was just a case of fight til I get chance to run away or restrain my opponent until they calm down (thankfully, being a pacifist, most of my scrapes were the latter, where I'd be attempting to stop someone from beating someone else up and it was usually nothing really to do with me beyond the fact that I hate to see people get hurt so will usually try to stop someone from hurting someone else if I can). So I don't expect to every use TSD in 'the street'. I just like learning different things I can make my body do that many people can't. Not for 'one-up-man-ship', just because its cool.

I understand what you are saying here, however I do train with expecting to use my skills on the street, but it is my hope that I never have to. If I train with the attitude of well I'll never have to do this then, I don't take it as seriously. However if I train like I may have to and accept the veiw point that I might have to then I want to do it as effectively as possible.

 

[Badger1777]

I understand what you are saying here, however I do train with expecting to use my skills on the street, but it is my hope that I never have to. If I train with the attitude of well I'll never have to do this then, I don't take it as seriously. However if I train like I may have to and accept the veiw point that I might have to then I want to do it as effectively as possible.

I train with the view that I might have to use it for real. What I meant when I said I never intend or expect to use it for real, is that I am not going there simply to learn the best way to beat people up I know that's not what you're saying either. I just mean that in my mind, if I was to learn with the attitude that I might have to use it, all that I'd do is focus heavily on the stuff I thought was really likely to be useful in battle. you said you've been doing martial arts now for 33 years, so you probably implicitly see the logic in every move, but cast your mind back to when you were a beginner, there must have been moves you saw where you thought, 'yeah right, that's too easy to counter, I wouldn't want to rely on that'? I do. One of the take downs we do, I was so skeptical about, I asked my friend if I could try it on him. He got out of it without any problem, thus confirming my belief that it was a pointless move. I still practiced that move in class to the best of my ability since, because I'm there to learn and I wont just cherry pick the good bits, and I'm glad I did, because one of the instructors spotted that I was putting one hand in the wrong position on my opponent's arm during practice. Once I was shown where I was going wrong, and I tried the move again with my training partner telling me he was gripping for real just to see if I could do it, I actually scared myself with what happened. He went down so fast and so violently I had to quickly pull him back to help him avoid smashing his face into the floor (thankfully between him sticking his free hand out and me yanking back, his nose stopped about a centimeter short of the floor).

 

[Mark Lynn]

I train with the view that I might have to use it for real. What I meant when I said I never intend or expect to use it for real, is that I am not going there simply to learn the best way to beat people up I know that's not what you're saying either. I just mean that in my mind, if I was to learn with the attitude that I might have to use it, all that I'd do is focus heavily on the stuff I thought was really likely to be useful in battle. you said you've been doing martial arts now for 33 years, so you probably implicitly see the logic in every move, but cast your mind back to when you were a beginner, there must have been moves you saw where you thought, 'yeah right, that's too easy to counter, I wouldn't want to rely on that'? I do.

Badger
Naw, I understand what you are saying. However, I don't see the logic in every move, which to be honest is why I change some things in how I practice the art and how I was taught it. And I still see moves where I say "yeah right, that's too easy to counter, I wouldn't want to rely on that".

However there are some things which can appear to be bogus because of the way it is taught or the application given to the particular move, especially in kata (forms). And it is easy to write stuff off as a beginner and even advanced practitioners because someone else said it was this and that, or this is no good etc. etc.

One of the take downs we do, I was so skeptical about, I asked my friend if I could try it on him. He got out of it without any problem, thus confirming my belief that it was a pointless move. I still practiced that move in class to the best of my ability since, because I'm there to learn and I wont just cherry pick the good bits, and I'm glad I did, because one of the instructors spotted that I was putting one hand in the wrong position on my opponent's arm during practice. Once I was shown where I was going wrong, and I tried the move again with my training partner telling me he was gripping for real just to see if I could do it, I actually scared myself with what happened. He went down so fast and so violently I had to quickly pull him back to help him avoid smashing his face into the floor (thankfully between him sticking his free hand out and me yanking back, his nose stopped about a centimeter short of the floor).

Close call, what was the take down. Does it have a name or can you describe it? It is funny how one little correction can make all the difference in the world.

 

[Buka]

You've been training three or four months. Who knows, maybe it takes five or six months to get this stuff down.

You need to go join that BJJ school.