Is It Possible?

[Dirty Dog]

No school around here "pressure tests" any of the skills that you are taught anyway,

In most cases, I'd ask how you know that "no school" does or does not do anything, but in your case I wouldn't be suprised to hear that you'd enrolled in all of them. For a short time. :rofl:

outside of worthless point sparring.

And how is point sparring LESS helpful than pounding on a poor defenseless bag that cannot move or strike back?

 

[Mauthos]

I think this thread poses an interesting question. Belts in my opinion do not mean anything regarding to skill in actual competition or real life situations. Some black belts are phenomenal fighters, others get bested regularly by any coloured belt, but their technique is flawless. It is all relative, a black belt normally symbolizes dedication and time spent training in a particular martial art.

Due to my past jobs and traveling a great deal, belts never meant a thing to me, I just wanted to train and sought out decent clubs where ever I was at that particular time. Therefore, I hold several coloured belts in several martial arts, but it took me approximately 20 years to actually obtain a black belt and although I was very proud, it didn't change my opinion that belt colour doesn't really matter (it took me a further 6 years until I was pretty much told I was grading for my 2nd).

However, there is also an important thing to note and that is, in all honesty, you never stop learning when training in any martial art. It may seem like it is the same moves repeated in different sequences, but as you practice you improve, refine and understand those moves even more. Especially as in many martial arts, as a black belt, you are expected to teach or at least assist in teaching and I have found this also opens your eyes and allows you to understand the art to a greater degree. Students will always make you think and question which can do nothing but improve your own understanding of a style.

I cannot comment as to further techniques after black belt for your particular style, but I know that my style, Kenpo, does have the prerequisite new forms but although the techniques you learn up to 3rd dan are the same as earlier grades, they are known as extensions as you now learn how to take a SD technique that little bit further, for example Twirling wings is first taught in the purple belt syllabus and then again, with its extension, in the 1st black belt.

I do believe training at home is important and can help keep you sharp, but in my opinion this needs to be mixed up with training with a club, with an instructor and other students. I personally don't train in Kenpo having moved away from my original Kenpo club and mine is the only one in my current area. However, at least 6 times a year I visit my instructor and his students or they come to me, to keep my hand in as it were.

Training in a club allows you to improve, by having that critical view from your instructor, being surprised by students that will make you think, sweat and react in new ways. Nothing can improve your fighting ability than sparring with a variety of abilities and builds whether it is realistic pressure tested fighting, semi-continuous, full contact, point scoring, it'll all help you develop into a better fighter all round. I personally do not like point scoring fighting, but I have trained in it as well as full contact, semi-contact (I have fought a lot in both semi and full contact competitions) and I always pressure test my stuff, it has help and improved me to no end.

I do not think the main purpose for training in a martial art should be to attain a black belt status (I am one of those that does believe you only truly start learning when you achieve your BB now), but to constantly strive to perfect your style, technique and to improve your understanding and ability.

However, it is really what works for you. If you prefer training solo, going at it at your own pace at your own time, then feel free to fill your boots. My advice though would be to stick with a school, enjoy the training and learn the lessons taught literally and the ones that will creep up on you, you'll be a better martial artist and fighter for it.

 

[lklawson]

I was wondering........if someone like me knows all of the kicks that there are available in Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon do. If someone like me knows how to box and throw feints and combos, is it really worth spending all of this money at a dojang to achieve a belt that is black?

The absolute 100% serious answer is: First learn all those things, really learn them, then, after the period of a couple of years which it will take to gain enough expertise, you will find that you already know the answer for yourself. Either you'll want to keep doing it or you won't.

It's really that simple.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

I read it as I already know everything there is so why train

There are lots of people who don't care about having a black belt. Ever heard of a "Professional Brown Belt" in Judo? It's not exactly uncommon for Judoka to just keep doing Judo because they enjoy it and a lot of them stop testing at Brown because they've got enough Dojo-rank to randori hard with whoever shows up but they don't have the pressure of being required to go for Dan ranking.

Beyond that there are a crap-ton of martial arts that either have different, non Gup/Dan (Kyu/Dan), ranking systems or no ranking system at all. There are some which have no "rank" to speak of except for competition victories. Yet all of these practitioners find enough value in the training that they continue, regardless of not having "Black Belt" as a goal.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

that's one way of reading it, but I didn't read it that way. I read it as, "how much material is really necessary to accomplish the goal of having solid self defense skills?"

Personally I think it's an interesting question. Martial systems have sometimes grown into huge, cumbersome giants and I sometimes think some of them would be well served to be trimmed down a bit. The curriculum can become so big as to be unwieldy and ultimately dysfunctional and unuseful. Sometimes priorities in training can get screwed up and we start to think that "more is better" and I just don't believe that is always the case.

that's my take on it, anyways

Well, there's more to it than that. There's a certain level of expertise which is necessary for 80% of Self Defense or 80% of Military Combat effectiveness. But there's the other 20% that you can go to if you want. I see this extremely well illustrated in Western civ. Saber traditions. When you look at the military Saber manuals, intended to instruct recruits in the most simple and effective methods, the systems tend to be quite small and basic. The KISS Principle is in effect. On the other hand, when you look at material for Dueling and related Fencing, you see a lot more sophisticated, detailed, and developed systems. What's the difference? The guy at the other end of the sword. The more adept your opponent, the better you have to be to succeed.

I see the same thing in Bayonet too.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

That's pretty damn close to the exact point I was trying to make. The rest of my post was a question. Do all of the very knowledgeable people on these forums think that this would be enough?

No, I don't think so.

If all you were interested in was pragmatic self defense you'd buy a gun and get training and a CCP in that, then you'd go find someone teaching small knives, short sticks, and some sort of modern CQC. But you're not doing that. You're looking for "Martial Arts" so, like Rocco in Key Largo, "you want more." The problem for you is that you haven't figured out exactly what that "more" is yet.

Figure out what you really want, emotionally, and you'll find out what you need to do to fill that emotional need.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

The Dan/kyu/gup system is broken beyond repair. It means nothing outside of your own school and maybe...maybe your organization. There are no universal standards from one art to the next and indeed even within the same art. It is a personal thing only. And it isn't really needed or necessary to excel in the martial arts. Indeed, how many arts don't have belts?

That doesn't mean the system is "broken" it just means that what we martial artists think that non-martial artists think the dan/kyu(gup) system means is inaccurate. The "system" doesn't need fixing. Either the general public needs educated about what the system represents or we martial artists need to realize that the general public has gotten the message. One of those two things.

Now, since I've been seeing (and have written, myself) articles for many years stating that rankings in one system do not equate to skill in some other system, and, equally, I've seen "black belt = beginning" vs "black belt = expert" debates going back, literally, decades, I'd have to conclude that the information is "out there" for anyone who's interested in seeing it. That must, therefore, mean that the general public either already knows or just simply doesn't care about the distinction.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[James Kovacich]

I agree! But after you obtain that black belt, you continue to perform the same techniques that you performed during your colored belt ranks, but in different patterns and forms. So, I can take what you are saying here as, an expert is someone that has performed the basic moves for years. Which is what I am trying to find out. If I already know all of the basic moves, wouldn't I be just as good as any 2nd or 3rd dan if I practiced on my own for the next 15 or twenty years? Sure, I won't know the forms, but the forms aren't going to help me in a fight anyway.

Maybe you need to switch styles as it seems you now have differant goals in your training.

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[lklawson]

I went for a month.
The students that were there for years were doing the same thing that I was doing, but the difference was, they were doing it for years.
They taught me the footwork and some combos and I hit some targets.

This would have been rinse/repeat for the next up-teen years. The same with martial arts.
The basics are all that I need. All that I need to improve is a pair of gloves and a punching bag at home.....I have the gloves! I plan on getting a bag.

The only difference is that I will not have someone looking over my shoulder giving me corrections when needed.

No, the difference is that the other students, who stay longer and get more practice, will be better able to perform the techniques and less likely to make mistakes, mistakes which could get them hurt.

But the corrections I would have received are not going to be the defining factor in a fight, because I strongly doubt that in the unfortunate event that I did have to defend myself, I would have to defend myself against another trained fighter because 99% of trained fighters are not aggressive.

So it will be against some punk that throws haymakers. I do not need ten years of boxing or five years of karate to beat that....

All I need are basics, brains and a fast running speed!

Ummm.... yeeah... You have some basic assumptions which may not be accurate. How to you know that if you have to defend yourself, "it will be against some punk that throws haymakers?" Really? How do you know that you, "would have to defend myself against another trained fighter because 99% of trained fighters are not aggressive?" What makes you really believe that training is that low or that 99% are "not aggressive?" For that matter, who says that people don't start non-aggressive and circumstances alter? Road Rage happens to everyone and everyone can have a bad day.

I really think you need to look closely at what your base inputs are.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[harlan]

Having read your previous posts, I can say with certainty, that paying 100$ month is a good deal for you. You can keep the basic skills and fitness level that you value sharp.

Personally, after reading the post below, I would not teach you...for any price. You simply do not appear to have what it takes to succeed in a martial study.

I went for a month.
The students that were there for years were doing the same thing that I was doing, but the difference was, they were doing it for years.
They taught me the footwork and some combos and I hit some targets.

This would have been rinse/repeat for the next up-teen years. The same with martial arts.
The basics are all that I need. All that I need to improve is a pair of gloves and a punching bag at home.....I have the gloves! I plan on getting a bag.

The only difference is that I will not have someone looking over my shoulder giving me corrections when needed. But the corrections I would have received are not going to be the defining factor in a fight, because I strongly doubt that in the unfortunate event that I did have to defend myself, I would have to defend myself against another trained fighter because 99% of trained fighters are not aggressive.

So it will be against some punk that throws haymakers. I do not need ten years of boxing or five years of karate to beat that....

All I need are basics, brains and a fast running speed!

 

[James Kovacich]

Having read your previous posts, I can say with certainty, that paying 100$ month is a good deal for you.

Personally, after reading the post below, I would not teach you...for any price.

It seems he's struggling to "get it." Nothing gets ingrained in such short periods of time.

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[lklawson]

I'd say most people with a year or two of martial arts training will be probably have the awareness and basic tools to defend against an untrained drunk/bully.

Why is it that most people assume that they'll be assaulted by an "untrained drunk/bully?" Statistics indicate that most violent assaulter, people most likely to mug you or pick a bar fight, have been in many fights prior to meeting you. You're just another fight to them. Further, even sans "formal training," just getting out and actually fighting is a great method of instilling the basics of "what works."

Now, I'm not saying that it's most likely that you'll be attacked by ninjas but, rather, that the concept of the most likely attacker being an "untrained drunk/bully" is a fallacy. He's not necessarily going to be some goob throwing wild haymakers!

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

If you took boxing lessons for a month, you have seen the basics (jab, cross, hook, uppercut). That is a long, long, long way from having mastered them. A good boxing coach can teach you a lot about landing effective punches without being hit in return and it will take years to learn it all. I can pretty much guarantee you won't learn those lessons just by hitting a heavy bag at home.

Now, will you ever need those lessons for self-defense? Who knows. 98% of self-defense has very little to do with fighting anyway. If you live your life right, avoid dangerous places and people, control your ego and temper, and generally stay out of trouble then you may never have to throw a punch at anyone. On the other hand, if you get unlucky or screw up there are some dangerous folks out there. It's up to you how much effort you want to put into developing fighting skills.

I regret that I can only hit "Thanks" on this post once. It deserves 5 or 10.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[harlan]

And I think that 'to the right student, the right teacher/school/training situation'. Short term goals, impatience, lack of understanding of the role of sensei, I think this student is barking up the wrong tree. Wants to do martial arts, but doesn't have the temperament for it.

Stick to a good gym.

It seems he's struggling to "get it." Nothing gets ingrained in such short periods of time.

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[lklawson]

I think (in my very humble opinion) that learning to fight is very different from martial arts in many cases.

It may be but it doesn't have to be.

Most martial arts started out as a system for fighting. Many of them still are. Many, however, have evolved and adapted to better fit their modern environment which, particularly in the U.S. and Japan, seldom require actual melee skills (statistically speaking). If they were to survive, they had to change and offer benefits to modern practitioners in excess of simple "fighting" skills.

For any given person in the United States, the odds of being the victim of a ANY violent crime (such as being slapped by an irate waitress) is somewhere south of 2% and there is about a .0056% chance they will die from a homicide.

Thus we have martial arts that "enhance physical condition" and "build character and respect."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Flying Crane]

Well, there's more to it than that. There's a certain level of expertise which is necessary for 80% of Self Defense or 80% of Military Combat effectiveness. But there's the other 20% that you can go to if you want. I see this extremely well illustrated in Western civ. Saber traditions. When you look at the military Saber manuals, intended to instruct recruits in the most simple and effective methods, the systems tend to be quite small and basic. The KISS Principle is in effect. On the other hand, when you look at material for Dueling and related Fencing, you see a lot more sophisticated, detailed, and developed systems. What's the difference? The guy at the other end of the sword. The more adept your opponent, the better you have to be to succeed.

I see the same thing in Bayonet too.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Yes, these are good points and I agree. And yet I still feel that sometimes more is simply not better. Sometimes people are unable to recognize what does NOT belong in the curriculum.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

I know....Oh My God, another Kaygee post, right?

Seriously though....I don't want to catch a rash of crap for this, so I would appreciate an honest, open and MATURE discussion or I ask that you take your hateful comments elsewhere.

I was wondering........if someone like me knows all of the kicks that there are available in Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon do. If someone like me knows how to box and throw feints and combos, is it really worth spending all of this money at a dojang to achieve a belt that is black?

I know repetition is KEY! But I can do that repetition at home with a punching/kicking bag! Of course there the fact that correction from the master would be absent, but I haven't been corrected for doing a kick incorrectly for years. I am only corrected for minute, subtle mistakes in my forms, and, just like Bruce Lee, I believe that forms are a waste of time when it comes to preparing for a real street battle.

I have been thinking about it, and once you are a black belt, all you are doing are the same moves, but in a different pattern/form/hyung. Outside of that, nothing really changes. It all comes down to how long you have been doing it. But that gets me wondering, is there a difference as far as whether or not you are doing those kicks and techniques over and over again in a dojang paying over $100 a month or at home paying nothing?

Now I know it comes down to the "love" of martial arts. I know there are a lot of purists out there and I have nothing but the utmost respect for you! I mean, anyone that can stick with this stuff for a decade and never question it or cease to enjoy it, my hat goes off to you.

But I got myself into FANTASTIC shape by using a 25 lb kettlebell and a 20lb medicine ball and working out 3-4 times a week for 30-45 minutes. You should see my body now. And it took 60 days. I took martial arts for 2 1/2 years and never looked good. My flexibility has improved, but then again, I can do that at home. Stretching is easy! I can also do all of my kicks and hand techniques and such at home.

So I guess the bottom line is, I went to take martial arts to stay in shape and learn how to defend myself. Now that I pretty much have all of the criteria down
AND I KNOW THAT I DO NOT HAVE IT DOWN LIKE MOST BLACK BELTS OR MASTERS
do I not know enough where I can just practice over and over again at home and become efficient at self defense? I would have to say that looking forward, just learning more forms for the sake of attending a school and getting a black belt is not looking very appetizing to me. And I do know that this sort of thing isn't for everyone, but I have to question that if I work hard a few times a week and do what I know already over and over again, outside of learning new forms, what is the difference between attending a school or doing it at home?

Like Bruce Lee said (who never had a black belt himself, but no one can deny his skill) I fear not the man that has done 1,000 kicks 1 time, but the man that has done 1 kick 1,000 times.

I really, really, really hope that we can have an adult conversation about this.
Thank you!

The real basis of any art isn't just about how to punch, kick, throw, etc. If you see it that way then, yes, it's all just motion rearranged in different orders and there's no point in getting/seeking instruction because you already feel that you have this part down well enough and are in great shape. However, the real meat of the arts goes behind mere how to also encompassing when (timing), what (targets, angles), why (tactics, strategies), who (ethics, force regulation, situation awareness) and where (standing, ground, confined space, cluttered parking lot, environment, weapons availability, friends nearby, hostile part of town), etc.

Much of this can't be done without at least one other person to train with and almost all of it is easier for most people to grasp when instructed on it rather than working it out for themselves (though there are many people who can work it out for themselves with limited to no instruction).

I don't fear the guy who has done 1,000 kicks 1 time or the guy that's done 1 kick 1,000 times. If I feared any man it would be the one who trained to use however much he knows against someone skilled who doesn't want to allow him to use it.

 

[alburyscott]

If you take boxing as an example (as you did), I have a friend who is a trainer. He has worked with don king and multiple world champions. I asked him, and he said he could teach most people the basic punches in about 2 weeks (in most cases). I said how long before someone could use these on the street if need be. His answer was about 2 to 3 years. I asked him how much longer would it be if they took the two weeks, and trained on their own. NEVER. If you don't train in a ring/mat, with real people, you never learn the skills. I tend to believe him

 

[chinto]

well, here's some perspective...I train in a very traditional kung fu method, under a sifu who has been training since the early 1950s. He's old-school, grew up in Hong Kong and trained with some heavies in our particular system. We've got a good number of forms in our system (I actually believe that forms are a very useful tool for training some very useful skills, tho they need to be taught properly, understood properly, and practiced properly and that often doesn't happen) and our training tends to place a heavy focus on forms.

Sifu has said for a long time, if you really understand your basics, and if you have only learned the first of our forms, you've got PLENTY to be able to fight with. If you've learned our 2nd and 3rd forms, then you've got enough for a lifetime of training. You really do not need the dozen or so other forms that we have, not to mention the dozen or more weapons forms.

But this hinges on what I stated: that you REALLY understand the stuff. Most people don't, and it takes time and work and correction before you do. Sifu has also said for a long time, that the forms really just teach us what is possible with the basics, how the basics can be used. They help us develop our vision for what is possible. IF you had a vision of what is possible, then the basics are all you need. But most of us need some help with that, so we learn more of the forms and that helps us develop that vision of what is possible. Eventually, more forms will not help you. If you haven't developed the vision with the forms that you've already learned, then learning more forms won't get you there. If you HAVE developed the vision, then you have no need for more forms. The tool (the forms) has fulfilled its purpose.

Recently, Sifu said something very interesting. He said that we train for two reasons: self defense, and health (fitness). The practice of kung fu is for these two things. He then said that if you don't want to learn the complete system, you could study for one year with him and learn plenty to be able to fight with, plenty to develop fitness and health, and you would not need to learn any of the forms. It would be a stripped down version of the system, just focused on the fundamentals. Because that is what is really important.

So yeah, I think you could do it, provided that you understand your fundamentals and basic techniques very well, that you are doing them correctly and don't need ongoing correction, and that you have a vision of what is possible and what you can do with what you have. Are you there already? I dunno. Might you need some amount of training to get you there? I dunno. You need to answer these questions for yourself.

But yeah, it's possible. You don't need to train under someone for years and years, and you don't need a belt of any color.

I agree, but you will learn a lot more and understand a lot more, and more quickly if you train under a competent instructor.

 

[Flying Crane]

I agree, but you will learn a lot more and understand a lot more, and more quickly if you train under a competent instructor.

that goes without saying, and if a shorter course is to be successful then it is only with a competent instructor.

The point being, if all you want is some fundamental fighting skills and a way to exercise, you can get that pretty quickly. You don't need to study for years and years, and you don't need to reach the high ranks in the martial arts to get that.