Is it appropriate to create a new martial art?

[pesilat]

Originally posted by akja
Its a monkey with a bamboo stick on his shoulder whereing a Gung-Fu type of uniform. It looks better when it is bigger but that was as big as I could get it loaded up.

Huh. Cool. Can you attach it to a post?

Mike

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
OK, “traditional” Karate. In your opinion what does it lack to "hack it" in the real world?

You'll probably need to be more specific. Which system of Karate?

Mike

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by pesilat
You'll probably need to be more specific. Which system of Karate?

Mike

Any system...........let's take the system I study for example.

 

[James Kovacich]

Here it is.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by pesilat
You'll probably need to be more specific. Which system of Karate?

Mike

It's on my website.

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Any system...........let's take the system I study for example.

What system is that?

I think this is what akja is trying to ask. There are a lot of "traditional" Karate systems out there; each with its own specific focus, emphasis, and specialty.

Mike

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by akja
Here it is.

Cool pic

Mike

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by pesilat
What system is that?

I think this is what akja is trying to ask. There are a lot of "traditional" Karate systems out there; each with its own specific focus, emphasis, and specialty.

Mike

He wasn't specific when he said "traditional martial arts" & "traditionalists" so I have no idea if he is referring to my art or some other art.

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
He wasn't specific when he said "traditional martial arts" & "traditionalists" so I have no idea if he is referring to my art or some other art.

Yup. One of the inherent problems with generalizations.

Mike

 

[James Kovacich]

Ok, you cover the ranges more than the avarage traditional karate system. I'm referring to finishing moves based on what you have listed as systems. I didn't see to much information though or the Mpegs. Where are they located?

If you conversate better, we could talk. But you want me to mess up saying something that I don't know. That won't happen.

If I say that something is lacking, then that is what I believe. I have reasons to believe what I do and that reflcts the way I train, but I'm not the scholar you must think I am.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
He wasn't specific when he said "traditional martial arts" & "traditionalists" so I have no idea if he is referring to my art or some other art.

Which quote are you quoting me on?

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by akja
Which quote are you quoting me on?

Look at your old posts.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by pesilat
Yup. One of the inherent problems with generalizations.

Mike

Exactly. Either akja is claiming vast knowledge on all “traditional” arts by saying they are lacking or he is claiming to know one “traditional” art well enough to voice an expert opinion on it.
Whichever it is, he has not come forth with any information on the points I asked him to verify and in very much the same way as another member did when asked about his credentials has responded with unrelated questions and not actual answers.

 

[James Kovacich]

Here is a schools complete Karate curriculum. I say it is not complete as martial art. It does not cover the ranges as I say they should be. You do the translation and tell me what makes it complete because I don't see it.

You talk in riddles! You choose to quote me and when I ask what specific quote you are talking about you don't want to get to the point and say it.

This school put their system out there for the whole world to see so I am not going to name them. I got more from them that I sure got from you!

Second they have Jujitsu system that is separate. Together they may be complete! But given the fact that they teach them separately, both systems are incomplete in regards to covering all fight ranges. Covering a little here and there in other ranges is not enough.

Evidently they found a need to add a BJJ curriculum to enhance their trad. Jujitsu because they now teach that too!


Karate #1

Blocks (Uke) Kicks (Geri)
· Age uke · Ude uke · Soto ude uke · Nagashi uke · Jodan juji uke · Gedan juji uke · Soto age uke · Gedan ulna uke · Gedan barai uke · Kakiwake uke · Mikazuki geri uke · Mae geri · Rear mae geri · Yoko geri · Mawashi geri · Mikazuki geri · Soto mikazuki geri · Ushiro geri · Fumikomi geri Hittsui geri
Strikes (Uchi) Stances (Dachi)
· Cross shuto · Yoko shuto · Sakotsu shuto · Ganmen shuto · Nukite (pure form) · Gohon nukite · Ura tsuki · Kage tsuki · Uraken (downward/side) · Mawashi tsuki · Tate tsuki · Oi tsuki · Gyaku tsuki · Hiji (forward/rear/side/up) · Shotei · Haitto · Morote tsuki · Tettsui · Zenkutzo/Zen (front) · Kokutzo/Ko (back) · Necho ashi/Necho (cat) · Kiba (horse)

Karate #2
1. Club blow (or right blow): Age uke--zen--double ura tsuki
2. Straight right: Ude uke--ko--ganmen shuto
3. Straight right: Ude uke--ko--side uraken
4. Lapel grab: Ude uke--necho--gyaku tsuki
5. Straight right: Soto ude uke--kiba--hiji--kage tsuki
6. Straight right: Nagashi--kiba--yoko shuto--uraken
7. Straight right: Nagashi--kiba--yoko haitto--cross shuto
8. Right blow: Cross shuto--ko--shuto uchi (strike)
9. Right blow: Cross shuto--zen--mawashi--kage--ura tsukis
10. Side club: Inside uke--kiba--rear hiji
11. Club blow (downward): Jodan juji--zen--tettsui (downward)
12. Club blow (downward): Jodan juji--zen--ura tsuki
13. Knife up thrust: Gedan juji--kage tsuki
14. Straight right: Soto shuto--ko--yoko haitto
15. Overhead chain: Soto age uke--ko--kage tsuki
16. Knife thrust (or club to legs): Left gedan barai--zen--left uraken
17. Knife thrust (or club to legs): Right gedan barai--zen--right uraken
18. Belt grab: Gedan ulna--necho--left uraken
19. Front choke: Kakiwake uke--zen--double ura tsuki
20. Front choke: Kakiwake uke--zen--sakotsu--double ura tsuki


Karate #3
1. Front choke, parry: Haitto--cross shuto--osoto gari
2. Right blow, block: Hiji--sakotsu--osoto gari
3. Right & left, spin: Sakotsu--osoto gari
4. Club blow, juji uke: Armbreak (side)--sakotsu--osoto gari
5. Right & left: Lo-hi-lo--double ura tsuki--bodyslam
6. Rear strangle: Right-left hiji--ippon seoi
7. Club blow, juji uke: Sakotsu--double ura tsuki--bodyslam
8. Front hug (pinned): Windmill--sakotsu--osoto gari
9. Police hammerlock: Hiji--armbreak (side)--sakotsu--osoto gari
10. Straight lapel: Arm-neck shutos--ura tsuki--bodyslam
11. Boxer's left, parry: Left hook--left uraken--standing tani otoshi
12. Front choke, parry: Right hook--right uraken--inside armtwist
13. Double lapel: Knee up--ear slap--kidney chops--headlock throw
14. Rear hug (pinned): Windmill--sakotsu--osoto gari
15. Front headlock: Groin haitto (pivot)--mae geri--sakotsu--osoto gari
16. Front choke: Ude uke--mae geri-tate tsuki--bodyslam
17. Straight right, parry: Yoko shuto--left uraken--collar dragdown
18. Straight right, parry: Yoko haitto--cross shuto--standing tani otoshi
19. Boxer's left: Arm-thigh chops--left shotei--tackle ouchi
20. Front choke, parry: Yoko shuto--left uraken--inside armtwist
21. Knife thrust, left gedan: Elbow break (up)--right mae geri--inside armtwist
22. Right blow, block: Elbow break (side)--left uraken--bodyslam
23. Front hug (free): Knee--ear slap--kidney chops--eyes takedown
24. Front choke: Winglock (to side)--double haitto--osoto guruma
25. Right & left: Knee-to-face--double uras--lapel guruma

Karate #4
Knife Defense
1. Right gedan barai--side armbreak--right yoko tettsui--left shotei
2. Right gedan barai--elbow break--right shotei--kosoto--rear kneelingbar--barflex
3. Right gedan barai--elbow break--right, left shotei--reverse hadake--tettsui smash
4. Left gedan barai--upward elbow break--mae geri--tettsui
5. Left gedan barai--right arm sakotsu--left gohon--left mae geri--left sakotsu (high)
6. Left gedan barai--right armchop--left gohon--right cross shuto--hittsui
7. Soto ude uke (double)--elbow break (right under)--right mawashi geri--osoto--fumi komi (to ribs)
8. Soto ude uke--elbow break--right kage (to face)--left kidney shuto--kosoto
9. Soto ude uke--left armbreak--right shotei--left kage (ribs)--osoto
10. Upthrust: Gedan juji--right mae geri--right tettsui--cross twist otoshi (to mat)
11. Upthrust: Gedan juji--right mae geri--right collarbone sakotsu--reverse armbar
12. Cross slash: Tensho grab (double soto ude uke)--armbreak (submit)--kosoto--rear kneelingbar
13. Overhead knife (down): Jodan juji--jodan tettsui--elbow break--hiji-bodyslam
14. Double inside uke--rear right hiji--ippon seoi--fumi komi (to axilla)
15. Draws pocket knife: Left gedan barai--upward armbreak--left face shotei
16. Straight thrust: Right yoko geri--wrist twist--fumi komi (to ribs)--yubi tori
17. Left gedan shuto--right sakotsu (to arm)--crosstwist--mae geri--sakotsu--flex comealong
18. Straight thrust: Right yoko haitto (to face)--hadake jime
19. Straight thrust: Right sakotsu (to arm)--nelson strangle
20. Straight thrust: Right yoko haitto (to face)--hittsui--inside armtwist
21. Straight thrust: Right yoko haitto (to face)--ude tori--otoshi--fumi komi (to ribs)--yubi tori

Karate #5
Club Defense
1. Blow: jodan juji uke--R sakotsu--elbow break--L hiji--R hittsui--osoto gari
2. Blow: jodan juji uke--R tettsui--L gedan ulna--R ura tsuki--inside armtwist
3. Blow: age uke--Mae geri--sakotsu--ulna press--barflex
4. Blow: age uke--Mae geri--tettsui--osoto gari--winglock
5. Straight thrust--Soto ude uke--elbow break--R shotei--osoto guruma
6. Blow: age uke--Sakotsu--hittsui--osoto gari
7. Thrust: parry--Right yoko haitto--cross shuto--ulna press--barflex--rear otoshi--yubi tori
8. Thrust: parry--Armbreak--right kage--left kidney chop--kosoto gari--rear kneelingbar--barflex
9. Thrust: parry--Yoko shuto--kage tsuki (to face)--inside armtwist
10. Thrust: parry--Yoko haitto--ude tori--barflex--rear otoshi
11. Thrust: parry--Right haitto--right gohon nukite--rear hadake
12. Thrust: parry--Yoko shuto--right kage--osoto gari--winglock
13. Attack legs--L gedan barai--up elbow break--L gohon--R ganmen shuto
14. Attack legs--L gedan barai--elbow break--left gohon--R gedan haitto--chicken head strike (under chin)--left: right gohon--kouchi gari
15. Attack legs--L gedan barai--R arm sakotsu--R yoko geri--L ushiro geri
16. Blow: jodan juji uke--Tettsui--double uras--ulna press--one-hand barflex--otoshi--fumi komi--yubi tori
17. Blow: age uke--R hiji--ippon seoi--fumi komi--club yawara
18. Blow: age uke--R tettsui--uras--hiji--bodyslam--ashi hishigi
19. Blow: jodan juji uke--Sakotsu--uras--gohon--lapel guruma--rolling heel kick
20. Blow: jodan juji uke--Tettsui--gohon--uras--hittsui--osoto gari

Karate #6
Boxer defense
1. Nagashi uke--Left yoko haitto---left rear hiji (to kidney)
2. Nagashi uke--Left-right kage tsuki
3. Left cross shuto--Right thigh shuto---left hiji---right kage
4. Left cross shuto--Right-left hiji---right uraken
5. Left cross shuto--Left yoko haitto---elbow break---right yoko shuto
6. Nagashi uke--Left kage tsuki---left downward uraken
7. Nagashi uke--Left hittsui geri---left fumi komi---uraken
8. Nagashi uke--Left yoko haitto---right gohon---right kosoto
9. Nagashi uke--Left hiji---left osoto gari
10. Nagashi uke--Left yoko geri---right yoko geri
11. Nagashi uke--Left mawashi geri---right ushiro geri
12. Nagashi uke, spin--Right soto mikazuki geri
13. Nagashi uke, spin--Right soto mikazuki geri---right yoko shuto---left cross shuto
14. Nagashi uke--Left mawashi geri---right soto mikazuki geri
15. Nagashi uke, back--Right mawashi geri---left mae geri
16. Nagashi uke, spin--Soto ushiro geri
17. Nagashi uke, spin--Right ushiro geri---left yoko geri
18. Nagashi uke--Half-step shuffle---left-right yoko geri
19. Nagashi uke--Right mikazuki geri (to kidney)---left fumi komi
20. Nagashi uke--Left mawashi geri (to mat)---left fumi komi---sakotsu
21. Nagashi uke--Right ushiro geri---left yoko geri---right yoko shuto

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Exactly. Either akja is claiming vast knowledge on all “traditional” arts by saying they are lacking or he is claiming to know one “traditional” art well enough to voice an expert opinion on it.
Whichever it is, he has not come forth with any information on the points I asked him to verify and in very much the same way as another member did when asked about his credentials has responded with unrelated questions and not actual answers.

I asked you to direct me to the quote but you played you headgame! At midnite I aint playing your headgame. So slow down with the credibility crap!

I am continually misquoted by you. When did I say I had vast knowledge. I put all my training out there for you but you haven't produced anything except a website that did not tell me much at all.

The only art that I can say I really know as complete as complete can be at this time is "my art!"

 

[Matt Stone]

akja -

When you make sweeping generalizations that "traditional" arts aren't fit to the challenges of "modern" fighting, the crux of your error lies in the fact that unarmed fighting techniques and the requirements for surviving or winning an unarmed confrontation have not changed in all of human history.

You have two arms and two legs, a head, a torso, and specific ranges of motion for your limbs. You can only, ultimately, move in a finite number of directions or combinations of directions. Thus, how you attack me today is ultimately no different than someone from 500 years ago would attack me...

You say that "traditional" systems don't train all ranges. I disagree. I disagree that all "modern" systems train in methods better than their "traditional" origins. Individual instructors may have not learned or taught everything their system has to offer, and so are only able to provide limited instruction to their students.

In Yiliquan we don't deliberately advocate "going to the ground" with any attacker, grappler or non-grappler. Being on the ground with your opponent, wrestling for superior position (be it for submission or incapacitation) is unsafe at very best. The argument that I have yet to hear adequately addressed by BJJ people regarding their superior martial art and its application against multiple attackers applies here. You say you won't fight a boxer by boxing (implying you would grapple with him instead). What if you are confronted by several boxers? Your options are significantly reduced, and you will likely have to play the striking game in order to address the multiple opponent issue. So then what? The "modern" argument of using an opponent's training weaknesses (which, by the way, are not hung around the neck of a fighter, and are therefore unknown to you until he attempts something) against him are invalidated at that point. The only sound basis of your argument is to be exposed to all ranges rather than specializing in one - which is taught by any "traditional" system worth its salt.

As an example of standing and ground applications coming from the same form:

In Yiliquan's first fist form Di Yi Guan Nien ("First Idea") - The opening movement begins from the arms being held in front of the body, palms down, fingertips touching and pointed toward the centerline of the body. The right hand reaches out to the right and circles up so the forearm is held parallel to the ground at chest height, while the left hand sweeps up in front of the face and circles down and around to the left to end with the hand palm up in front of the navel. The arms appear to be holding a large ball in front of the body.

This technique, done standing, causes the right arm to enter between the opponent's left arm and his body, circling over to duck him forward and lock the elbow. The left hand simultaneously reaches up and behind the opponent's head, ducking the head down and effecting the bending of his body. This same technique, modified somewhat due to a ground position, can be applied to an attacker in the mount position who is attempting a punch/strike.

Same movement, form/kata based.

The trick is to have an instructor that knows the forms well enough, that knows the techniques well enough, to allow them to be taught to the students. That is where the flaw in "traditional" arts lies, not in the arts themselves. The art still contains the information, it is simply the instructors who do not know their art sufficently well to extract the needed techniques.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[James Kovacich]

I agree very much. We will get attacked in the same ways but it does not mean that we have to practice in the same ways. I was kind of pushed to say a lot of what I say. I've been asked repeatedly to verify why I teach the way I do. Its a double edged sword.

Not boxing a boxer does not mean having to go to the ground, just not fighting his range which is upright punching. Many arts address these ranges without ending up on the ground.

My whole point is my teaching methods are being questioned and I don't see how it makes a differance if you get the job done. For me, to teach someone to understand the grappler, you have teach them to fight from their back and to transition from all the positions. The submissions will come if you can get to the right positionand if you want them, you may choose to pound them. Just knowing what to do down there does not mean that you will be in control down there. So my opinion of this learning process is putting in the mat time is the key to being in control when being on the ground which I see as a position that needs to be well addressed..

The way to not have to fight on the ground is to have a deep understanding of the ground. My Sifu is a good example. He would show me several ways that he woiuld stop someone from running over him and taking him to the ground.

At his level, yes maybe. But the average Joe is nowhere near his level. So I teach what I think will get them well versed in the ranges that I feel would be a weakness to me if I had not learned them.

Just because you have technique that will work against all ranges, it does not mean that when a student needs to in a real situation be able to use those techniques.

Training on the ground will enable you to get off of the ground.
I spend a lot of time with the ground work because if you don't your technique can get shut down once you end up on your back. Thats all it is.

I never said I did anything better. I was pushed to say some things that I would have liked to state not so harshly.

But the end result is I'm not a green horn and I will be.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

JMHO, creating a new MA this day, is pretty much like creating a new cake recipe. Mix and match all the known ingredients.

It does not mean the product is necessary bad. The USMC came up with a USMC MA.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
JMHO, creating a new MA this day, is pretty much like creating a new cake recipe. Mix and match all the known ingredients.

It does not mean the product is necessary bad. The USMC came up with a USMC MA.

You couldn't be more wrong, in my opinion, which we are both entitled to, our opinions.

The last 10 years have set the stage for modification and evolution.

One on one, several individual arts have been singled out as not complete. They have been tested in the safest but most realistic manner as possible. There is no question as to what the right decision is!

You haven't paid close enough attention to what I have said.

If you teach, but you no longer teach what your instructor teaches. He does not teach what you teach.

Should your art use the name of your instructor that it does not represent or does it deserve a new name?

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Well, there are many arts that have rather standardized curriculum. You are either a member or you are not. Little room there.

If people want to mix, for example BJJ with Muay Thai and call the combo a new name, there is nothing to stop them from doing that. We already have American Karate, which has TKD in its core,

So, just about anyone can mix and match any art and slap a new label on it. Its a free country.