What Is a Kata

[Shai Hulud]

Interesting that you seem to be in favour of these drills. I actually threw them all out of my training when I switched styles. I can understand their benefit if you are point sparring but for me, that's where it all ends. In our training I reckon a lot of the drills were straight out unrealistic in a combat sense. Could I ask, what benefit do you get performing them?

Ah, I see what you mean, K.

This is true. There are a lot of flowery and showy techniques to be found in these drills. The forms to be found in the Mantis Boxing style usually have a lot of seemingly impractical or pretentious movements. I myself don't know why there there (or maybe I just haven't figured it out yet), but more often than not as a whole they present a comprehensive "flavor" of the martial art, to use Dr. Yang Jwing Ming's jargon.

Philip Starr, author of two books on the TMA's (Martial Mechanics and Martial Maneuvers) pointed out that such forms are merely textbooks (from which I use the same analogy for convenience). In Xingyi Quan, the idea is that the five basic strikes branch out into an endless number of variations and applications, tweaked and varied according to circumstance. This is why although as a MA XYQ is relatively compact, to be able to use it proficiently in combat may take a little longer, as with any martial art I'm sure. Interestingly enough, in the same book he bashes Xingyi Quan practitioners who keep insisting on using only the five foundational strikes for all times and places, and moving forward or backward only, a literal interpretation of Xingyi Quan's "Line of Attack" and linear fighting style. He also bashes students who mistake "Sticky Hands" training for actual combat practice.

I suppose my point is that although any idiot can learn kata's/forms/pum-se's, it takes true applied wisdom and experiental knowledge in that art to be able to discern what may work for you, single it out and tweak it to your liking - adjusting it to fit your needs, but based on the general principles of the art. But while that may be the case (at least IMHO), that does not downplay their importance in the development of the martial artist. Before one can begin to apply what is learned in the dojo/training center/gym, one has to be introduced to the basic movements and mechanics of the art.

I like to think that everything learned between getting your first white belt and finally getting your black belt is like learning the alphabet as a child. They're the building blocks - simple but essential. On their own and in isolation they may not mean anything, but it's in how you string them together to elaborate concepts and ideas that make you fluent.

Needless to say but I'll say it anyway, I'm not taking a dump on people who think that forms are useless. Everyone has their own preferred method of instruction/learning, but I find that the statement "drilling -insert form or kata here- is useless and a waste of time. Spar instead!", is also unfair. While it is true that practicing forms all day will not make you a better fighter in itself, at least running through them once a day as a supplement to your static drills, sparring and S&C routines will ensure you have a solid root for your practice. It's meditative in nature - a state where thought is no longer required; your movements have been drilled so often that they are almost second nature.

Xingyi Quan's Pi Quan (or "Splitting Fist") on its own may not be much, but do it enough and try to set some time aside to understand it and you may find, for example, that besides the face, you can target the shoulder to transition into a Qin Na lock, use it as a deflecting counter-strike against an incoming one from your opponent, or to grab an outstretched limb and pull your opponent into you, setting him/her up for the Zuan Quan, the Xingyi Quan "Drilling Fist", which you may aim at the face or chin as is classically taught, but may also be used to target the throat, the solar plexus, or the collar bone.

To first be even able to comprehend the two moves I mentioned above, I will have to understand their basic movements and mechanics, which is what the forms will teach me.

 

[K-man]

Ah, I see what you mean, K.

This is true. There are a lot of flowery and showy techniques to be found in these drills. The forms to be found in the Mantis Boxing style usually have a lot of seemingly impractical or pretentious movements. I myself don't know why there there (or maybe I just haven't figured it out yet), but more often than not as a whole they present a comprehensive "flavor" of the martial art, to use Dr. Yang Jwing Ming's jargon.

Philip Starr, author of two books on the TMA's (Martial Mechanics and Martial Maneuvers) pointed out that such forms are merely textbooks (from which I use the same analogy for convenience). In Xingyi Quan, the idea is that the five basic strikes branch out into an endless number of variations and applications, tweaked and varied according to circumstance. This is why although as a MA XYQ is relatively compact, to be able to use it proficiently in combat may take a little longer, as with any martial art I'm sure. Interestingly enough, in the same book he bashes Xingyi Quan practitioners who keep insisting on using only the five foundational strikes for all times and places, and moving forward or backward only, a literal interpretation of Xingyi Quan's "Line of Attack" and linear fighting style. He also bashes students who mistake "Sticky Hands" training for actual combat practice.

I suppose my point is that although any idiot can learn kata's/forms/pum-se's, it takes true applied wisdom and experiental knowledge in that art to be able to discern what may work for you, single it out and tweak it to your liking - adjusting it to fit your needs, but based on the general principles of the art. But while that may be the case (at least IMHO), that does not downplay their importance in the development of the martial artist. Before one can begin to apply what is learned in the dojo/training center/gym, one has to be introduced to the basic movements and mechanics of the art.

I like to think that everything learned between getting your first white belt and finally getting your black belt is like learning the alphabet as a child. They're the building blocks - simple but essential. On their own and in isolation they may not mean anything, but it's in how you string them together to elaborate concepts and ideas that make you fluent.

Needless to say but I'll say it anyway, I'm not taking a dump on people who think that forms are useless. Everyone has their own preferred method of instruction/learning, but I find that the statement "drilling -insert form or kata here- is useless and a waste of time. Spar instead!", is also unfair. While it is true that practicing forms all day will not make you a better fighter in itself, at least running through them once a day as a supplement to your static drills, sparring and S&C routines will ensure you have a solid root for your practice. It's meditative in nature - a state where thought is no longer required; your movements have been drilled so often that they are almost second nature.

Xingyi Quan's Pi Quan (or "Splitting Fist") on its own may not be much, but do it enough and try to set some time aside to understand it and you may find, for example, that besides the face, you can target the shoulder to transition into a Qin Na lock, use it as a deflecting counter-strike against an incoming one from your opponent, or to grab an outstretched limb and pull your opponent into you, setting him/her up for the Zuan Quan, the Xingyi Quan "Drilling Fist", which you may aim at the face or chin as is classically taught, but may also be used to target the throat, the solar plexus, or the collar bone.

To first be even able to comprehend the two moves I mentioned above, I will have to understand their basic movements and mechanics, which is what the forms will teach me.

I have never seen Pi Quan before but the extended arm striking like that is in three of our kata also. In the Goju kata the strike is mostly proceeded by a turn, either 90 degrees or 180 degrees. Now that can mean that I have moved relative to my partner to the side or behind him. The hand coming down could be clearing the way for a heel palm strike or it could be capturing a wrist or arm. The strikes could be to the jaw, temple or neck, or from behind, gall bladder 20. I can see your shoulder lock but that also may require a 180 turn if I am reading it correctly.

Reading about Xingyi Quan I see that it is similar to Bagua Zhang, a style I have seen practised by Erle Montaigue. Done slowly it looks benign but throw in some fa jin and I can see fireworks.

Here is a site I found that could interest you.

 

[ShotoNoob]

...Forms/Poomses/Katas are more like cheat-sheets or textbooks, if you will. They demonstrate key principles and basic techniques, preferably in perfect form to set a solid foundation for the learning of the target martial art. "Pre-arranged Fight Choreography" is, in my opinion, indicative of a lack of understanding. Hence, perfect demonstration of forms/katas may not necessarily reflect good combat skills, but they are a crucial first step to getting there.

|
Your background is very impressive. One question. Why then did Gichin Funakoshi and most of his mentors believe in kata as the way to practice karate? And to support your thesis, yet the traditional karate curriculum has three classical divides, kihon, kata, kumite.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Interesting that you seem to be in favour of these drills. I actually threw them all out of my training when I switched styles. I can understand their benefit if you are point sparring but for me, that's where it all ends. In our training I reckon a lot of the drills were straight out unrealistic in a combat sense. Could I ask, what benefit do you get performing them?

In my opinion, they are most useful as a way for beginners to learn about timing, balance, distancing, and to recognize openings for counterattacks.

 

[Shai Hulud]

|
Your background is very impressive. One question. Why then did Gichin Funakoshi and most of his mentors believe in kata as the way to practice karate? And to support your thesis, yet the traditional karate curriculum has three classical divides, kihon, kata, kumite.

Some Latin!

Repetitio est mater studorium.

In English, "repetition is the mother of learning". I actually had to Google Search what Kihon was, but after a brief glance I can compare it to the static drills I used to do back in my Judo days, otherwise known as "Uchikomi".

The forms (in this case, "Kata") are the bridge between the Kihon and the Kumite. Every key technique, mechanic, movement and principle you will be exposed to in the Kihon is condensed for easier reference and learning in the Kata, which you will then have to expound upon in Kumite (do the Kata over and over again until it becomes second nature, then every now and then if a particular movement in any of the katas interest you and you think you can make it work, single it out, break it down and test it out in Kihon training all over again). You could be an excellent fighter, but if you will not use techniques found in the Karate system, then what you are doing may not necessarily be Karate.

So, for your fighting to resemble at least remotely the form of Karate, it follows that you will have to be familiar with Karate's move-sets. The Kata itself will have little to no combat value if you take it at face value. You could make it work, but the general principles and techniques show there may not apply to all circumstances. You will have to analyze the Kata and break the moves down. I'm not talking about something like "White Ape Presents Fruits" or "Dragon Swoops Down". I'm talking about the solid basics. Go deeper, and break the techniques down further to their fundamentals. Where's the block here? The strike? Is it a straight-up parry or a counter-strike to be delivered simultaneously? One has to get to the essence of the very basics of the techniques.

Forms exist to serve as outlines or "cheat-sheets" for an entire TMA's curriculum, or at least most of it. They won't do everything on their own, but they make up a significant portion of the pie, considering these are the medium through which form, general principle, and key concept are taught to the student. Reflex and adaptability will come through Kihon; spirit from Kumite.

 

[Tez3]

....I used to do back in my Judo days....

Did you ever do kata in your Judo? My instructor knows the Judo katas, he demo'd some and we tried parts out but 'knee walking' is beyond me. Interestingly some are done with weapons.

 

[K-man]

In my opinion, they are most useful as a way for beginners to learn about timing, balance, distancing, and to recognize openings for counterattacks.

Then, I suppose it depends on what you are training for. The kata teach us to engage and pretty much destroy. Krav is the same. Tournament fighting is quite different. You're moving in and back, hopefully maintaining ma-ai. That is one of the rules in Tomiki Aikido as well.

For me, I can't for the life of me see why I would run the gauntlet of entering, only to retreat and have to do it again. Can you imagine the marines as they were clearing the islands during the Pacific campaign? ... "OK guys we've landed. We took reasonably heavy casualties but that's alright. Let's go back to the ship and we'll have another go after lunch." No, once they're there they dig in and fight like hell. I reckon it's the same for karate (and Krav for that matter). The problem I had with step sparring was that a lot of it ( in fact I could almost say all of it) was
kihon. Sure it taught distance but as Hanzou is always fast to point out, nobody fights like that.

For example ..

In this clip to block Nage's right hand goes across and back to effect the block. That's crap. It can't happen at full speed. The punch arrives before you can bring the hand back and lift. If he partied with the left hand first, fair enough, but he didn't. It remained glued to his side.

Here's another, this time Shotokan and kids ..

Now the parents watching the grading would be politely applauding as their little darlings demonstrated their understanding of karate. Unfortunately the same stuff is being taught to adults as well. I know because years ago I had to teach it for grading. No wonder Hanzou has a poor regard for karate if it is taught like this. Maybe it teaches distance but I would even question that because at this distance, for safety reasons you are not at proper striking range anyway.

Karate bunkai, on the other hand, teaches you to enter and engage. Unfortunately most people don't train kata with that in mind.

 

[K-man]

The forms (in this case, "Kata") are the bridge between the Kihon and the Kumite. Every key technique, mechanic, movement and principle you will be exposed to in the Kihon is condensed for easier reference and learning in the Kata, which you will then have to expound upon in Kumite (do the Kata over and over again until it becomes second nature, then every now and then if a particular movement in any of the katas interest you and you think you can make it work, single it out, break it down and test it out in Kihon training all over again). You could be an excellent fighter, but if you will not use techniques found in the Karate system, then what you are doing may not necessarily be Karate.

So, for your fighting to resemble at least remotely the form of Karate, it follows that you will have to be familiar with Karate's move-sets. The Kata itself will have little to no combat value if you take it at face value. You could make it work, but the general principles and techniques show there may not apply to all circumstances. You will have to analyze the Kata and break the moves down. I'm not talking about something like "White Ape Presents Fruits" or "Dragon Swoops Down". I'm talking about the solid basics. Go deeper, and break the techniques down further to their fundamentals. Where's the block here? The strike? Is it a straight-up parry or a counter-strike to be delivered simultaneously? One has to get to the essence of the very basics of the techniques.

Forms exist to serve as outlines or "cheat-sheets" for an entire TMA's curriculum, or at least most of it. They won't do everything on their own, but they make up a significant portion of the pie, considering these are the medium through which form, general principle, and key concept are taught to the student. Reflex and adaptability will come through Kihon; spirit from Kumite.

Can I respectfully disagree with some of the above.

"Totus est non quis is videor"

Years ago, before we were aware of bunkai, I often referred to kata as a tool box that contains all the techniques you are likely to use. You can pick and choose and string a few bits together.

Many years later I look at kata more as being the operating manual. It contains an entire fighting system within. But you need to progress way beyond kihon. There is no progression from kihon to kumite. The progression is from kihon to more advanced understanding.

 

[Drose427]

Then, I suppose it depends on what you are training for. The kata teach us to engage and pretty much destroy. Krav is the same. Tournament fighting is quite different. You're moving in and back, hopefully maintaining ma-ai. That is one of the rules in Tomiki Aikido as well.

For me, I can't for the life of me see why I would run the gauntlet of entering, only to retreat and have to do it again. Can you imagine the marines as they were clearing the islands during the Pacific campaign? ... "OK guys we've landed. We took reasonably heavy casualties but that's alright. Let's go back to the ship and we'll have another go after lunch." No, once they're there they dig in and fight like hell. I reckon it's the same for karate (and Krav for that matter). The problem I had with step sparring was that a lot of it ( in fact I could almost say all of it) was
kihon. Sure it taught distance but as Hanzou is always fast to point out, nobody fights like that.

For example ..

In this clip to block Nage's right hand goes across and back to effect the block. That's crap. It can't happen at full speed. The punch arrives before you can bring the hand back and lift. If he partied with the left hand first, fair enough, but he didn't. It remained glued to his side.

Here's another, this time Shotokan and kids ..

Now the parents watching the grading would be politely applauding as their little darlings demonstrated their understanding of karate. Unfortunately the same stuff is being taught to adults as well. I know because years ago I had to teach it for grading. No wonder Hanzou has a poor regard for karate if it is taught like this. Maybe it teaches distance but I would even question that because at this distance, for safety reasons you are not at proper striking range anyway.

Karate bunkai, on the other hand, teaches you to enter and engage. Unfortunately most people don't train kata with that in mind.

When we do them, partners are to be close enough that their knuckles touch from chumbee. When they punch, its full speed/contact to the nose. It seems like every class though, we have to tell the youngins to move closer. I dont know one adult to hasnt eating a few punches in his day, when I was a 6th geup I had my eye split because I lost focus.

When you become an advanced belt, we do drills like this from more of a boxing free punching drill.

Another important factor though, is the observing instructor correcting you if the move you're performing is unfeasible or unrealistic.

The first video you posted is cringeworthy.. No effort to hit a specific target, to off center your opponent (which is so easy to do with a hard roundhouse), I would say it was for demonstration but since he paid no real attention to positioning and targeting.

Not to mention hes still holding onto the hand with no effort for control...

The second, is a common issue with young kids. Its one way we can tell they arent putting in enough effort. When we tell them to move up every class and they still dont listen.

The adults get the stick to the thigh.....


These drills are like any others in that they NEED to be done properly with the right mindset. If youre slipping up, you need to be corrected.

Doing them wrong is just like dancing through forms.

 

[K-man]

When we do them, partners are to be close enough that their knuckles touch from chumbee. When they punch, its full speed/contact to the nose. It seems like every class though, we have to tell the youngins to move closer. I dont know one adult to hasnt eating a few punches in his day, when I was a 6th geup I had my eye split because I lost focus.

When you become an advanced belt, we do drills like this from more of a boxing free punching drill.

Another important factor though, is the observing instructor correcting you if the move you're performing is unfeasible or unrealistic.

The first video you posted is cringeworthy.. No effort to hit a specific target, to off center your opponent (which is so easy to do with a hard roundhouse), I would say it was for demonstration but since he paid no real attention to positioning and targeting.

Not to mention hes still holding onto the hand with no effort for control...

The second, is a common issue with young kids. Its one way we can tell they arent putting in enough effort. When we tell them to move up every class and they still dont listen.

The adults get the stick to the thigh.....


These drills are like any others in that they NEED to be done properly with the right mindset. If youre slipping up, you need to be corrected.

Doing them wrong is just like dancing through forms.

Cool, but when I was looking for examples of other styles of 2 step sparring and four step sparring it was all sole person training. Can you find a clip of the type of training you are doing?

 

[K-man]

Here's another. Forgetting the terrible high kick (it's very much like mine ), distancing is terrible and nobody fights like that, even in competition.

One of the biggest problem with my guys, who come from the old school background, is getting them to stop leaving their arms out after punching.

Even at black belt level it is not realistic.

Now I'm not overly impressed with all contained in this video either but this bunkai is far more practical and I would be much happier drilling these combinations than the step sparring.

 

[Drose427]

Cool, but when I was looking for examples of other styles of 2 step sparring and four step sparring it was all sole person training. Can you find a clip of the type of training you are doing?

What do you mean by sole person training?

Do you mean one person is the sole attacker and one is the sole defender?

Usually in class they go back and forth in step sparring.

Another issue that pops up when people don't stay focused on doing it properly is people move on the kihap. Which is obviously wrong

as for the clip, iafter looking through 3 pages it seems for one step the majority of the videos are instructional. So while the foundation is fairly similar, they'll look and feel different. I also found test videos but they seemed hit or miss.

For the way we do it with the attacker wearing gloves, I wouldn't even know where to begin to find a great video for it wince it doesn't even have a name. I remember watching some Marine Corp video where they did the same style drill, but I can't remember if it was on YouTube or when I was trying to enlist. It's pretty simple though,

1. attacker wears gloves

2. Attacker swings at face

3. Stop attacker.

You probably do a similar drill in krav. Usually after a couple minutes you switch roles.

I can tell you, step sparring as a drill is a risk. Done improperly students cant defend themselves.

At my school, it's taken as one of the most serious parts of our training. We had a black belt break a gentlemen nose because the BB went to attack the the guy didn't react properly. After his test, they had a talk with the geup rank about how it was his own fault.

But at test at the home school, it becomes apparent some students dont. I inadvertently embarrassed a young lady who was larger than myself at our 2nd geup test because she wasn't used to someone coming from so close and I didn't give takedowns..

Whether that was a student issue or a school issue, I can't say.

I felt bad because I thought the poor girl was gonna have an anxiety attack, but if you're not doing them properly their pointless.

Long story short, its still one step we just do it within the danger zone, leave nothing hanging out there (other than some kicks for 'test one steps') because its simply unrealistic, and tell students no more than 2 moves. Pick your targets and just end it, nothings cringe than seeing 4-6 moves in a one step

Here's another. Forgetting the terrible high kick (it's very much like mine ), distancing is terrible and nobody fights like that, even in competition.

One of the biggest problem with my guys, who come from the old school background, is getting them to stop leaving their arms out after punching.

Even at black belt level it is not realistic.

Now I'm not overly impressed with all contained in this video either but this bunkai is far more practical and I would be much happier drilling these combinations than the step sparring.

I have never seen one step done that way.....it just looks...well weird

your second point is part of why we tell students to react the second the attack blinks, and 1-2 moves. Nearly of what I do, it accomplishing before your punch even straightens. By that time clear.

If you can't long react before that finishes, your attacker is gonna throw that second punch long before you do anything.

One step is just like anything else, if you're doing it improperly, yoI'd be better suited trying a different drill.

Doing them wrong, like not being in the danger zone, just shoots your partner in the foot


Actually, we do that bunkai drill too when students are having difficulty unDer standing a form

 

[K-man]

What do you mean by sole person training?

Do you mean one person is the sole attacker and one is the sole defender?

Usually in class they go back and forth in step sparring.

Another issue that pops up when people don't stay focused on doing it properly is people move on the kihap. Which is obviously wrong

as for the clip, iafter looking through 3 pages it seems for one step the majority of the videos are instructional. So while the foundation is fairly similar, they'll look and feel different. I also found test videos but they seemed hit or miss.

For the way we do it with the attacker wearing gloves, I wouldn't even know where to begin to find a great video for it wince it doesn't even have a name. I remember watching some Marine Corp video where they did the same style drill, but I can't remember if it was on YouTube or when I was trying to enlist. It's pretty simple though,

1. attacker wears gloves

2. Attacker swings at face

3. Stop attacker.

You probably do a similar drill in krav. Usually after a couple minutes you switch roles.

I can tell you, step sparring as a drill is a risk. Done improperly students cant defend themselves.

At my school, it's taken as one of the most serious parts of our training. We had a black belt break a gentlemen nose because the BB went to attack the the guy didn't react properly. After his test, they had a talk with the geup rank about how it was his own fault.

But at test at the home school, it becomes apparent some students dont. I inadvertently embarrassed a young lady who was larger than myself at our 2nd geup test because she wasn't used to someone coming from so close and I didn't give takedowns..

Whether that was a student issue or a school issue, I can't say.

I felt bad because I thought the poor girl was gonna have an anxiety attack, but if you're not doing them properly their pointless.

Long story short, its still one step we just do it within the danger zone, leave nothing hanging out there (other than some kicks for 'test one steps') because its simply unrealistic, and tell students no more than 2 moves. Pick your targets and just end it, nothings cringe than seeing 4-6 moves in a one step



I have never seen one step done that way.....it just looks...well weird

your second point is part of why we tell students to react the second the attack blinks, and 1-2 moves. Nearly of what I do, it accomplishing before your punch even straightens. By that time clear.

If you can't long react before that finishes, your attacker is gonna throw that second punch long before you do anything.

One step is just like anything else, if you're doing it improperly, yoI'd be better suited trying a different drill.

Doing them wrong, like not being in the danger zone, just shoots your partner in the foot


Actually, we do that bunkai drill too when students are having difficulty unDer standing a form

I have a little demonstration that I do with all new students with a previous experience in martial arts where they think they can perform blocks the way they are taught. From within striking range I tell them that I will hit them lightly on the chest and that they must perform one of the 'blocks' they have been taught to stop the strike. No one yet has stopped the strike.

The exercise I do next is to tell them to forget the block and just defend. 9 times out of ten they succeed. Simple physiology explains why. The first relies on recognising and reacting. The second on reflex.

Hansou keeps asking why you don't see karate guys fighting as they train. Training this way doesn't work in the real world so why would anyone use it in the ring against a highly trained opponent? I can't believe karate schools continue to teach this stuff. It is a relic from the time karate went into the schools. It didn't exist in the traditional schools.

 

[Drose427]

I have a little demonstration that I do with all new students with a previous experience in martial arts where they think they can perform blocks the way they are taught. From within striking range I tell them that I will hit them lightly on the chest and that they must perform one of the 'blocks' they have been taught to stop the strike. No one yet has stopped the strike.

The exercise I do next is to tell them to forget the block and just defend. 9 times out of ten they succeed. Simple physiology explains why. The first relies on recognising and reacting. The second on reflex.

Hansou keeps asking why you don't see karate guys fighting as they train. Training this way doesn't work in the real world so why would anyone use it in the ring against a highly trained opponent? I can't believe karate schools continue to teach this stuff. It is a relic from the time karate went into the schools. It didn't exist in the traditional schools.

We come from the same style as you, Goju. We're TSD, but our lineages are nearly the same

A block to the down will never block a punch at your chest, doing any kind of hard block to stop a punch takes physical strength.

Most of us, go inside with more of a boxing block. Or outside, with more a check.

In pro boxing occasionally you'll see a variation block to the up that lets one guy get inside to work the body, in mma you'll guys check a punch and try to push them to the side

Its the same concept as training bunkai from forms, it will almost never be exactly how its done in kata. But will done with resistance will still work.

If your students havent been able to stop a simple chest punch, then they were either never made to do it within range of a punch or with contact.

For those of use that do those two things, its no different than someone putting on gloves and throwing haymakers.

 

[K-man]

If your students havent been able to stop a simple chest punch, then they were either never made to do it within range of a punch or with contact.

You totally missed my point. I don't teach 'blocks' because they can't work. These are not my students. They are guys who come from elsewhere, of any rank, who say they can use traditional 'blocks'. Uke means 'receive', not 'block' and I teach accordingly.

In one of yesterday's posts there was a reference to an interesting article on reflex pathways. Understanding those is understanding that a two step blocking action has to be slower than a one step punch.

 

[Drose427]

You totally missed my point. I don't teach 'blocks' because they can't work. These are not my students. They are guys who come from elsewhere, of any rank, who say they can use traditional 'blocks'. Uke means 'receive', not 'block' and I teach accordingly.

In one of yesterday's posts there was a reference to an interesting article on reflex pathways. Understanding those is understanding that a two step blocking action has to be slower than a one step punch.

You missed mine. I never said you taught them that. But if they cant block a simple punch, it means they never drilled one-step, or any-step properly.

Regardless of how one blocks, a move should NEVER be 2 steps as in "block then punch" If you're going to block at all, it needs to come out with the counter as one move. Just like how a boxer keeps his left arm up while jabbing with the right.

 

[K-man]

You missed mine. I never said you taught them that. But if they cant block a simple punch, it means they never drilled one-step, or any-step properly.

A bit of confusion here ...

If your students havent been able to stop a simple chest punch, then they were either never made to do it within range of a punch or with contact.

Sorry, I thought you were talking about my students because that is what you posted.

Regardless of how one blocks, a move should NEVER be 2 steps as in "block then punch" If you're going to block at all, it needs to come out with the counter as one move. Just like how a boxer keeps his left arm up while jabbing with the right.

I'm not talking about two techniques. I'm talking about blocks the way they are taught.

Here is an interesting video by Dan Djurdjevic. In it he demonstrates the block as a two part motion. When he uses it as a defence he doesn't use it the way it is taught. His arm goes straight up, not down and up the way he demonstrated it. As well, he doesn't use his other hand and all those 'blocks' are two hands.

You say that there should be defence and attack combined. Exactly, and that's the way these 'blocks' work. Unfortunately they are not practised that way and I've never seen it done in step sparring.

 

[Drose427]

Well theyre your students now....I didnt think id need to clarify since they learned those from other instructors.

And he does it as anyone should be, not "blocks" from kata are going to be the exact same way in SD. I agree, that many of the hard blocks you see in forms arent actually blocks. Or shouldnt be, because unless you're 125% muscle benching a truck it likely wont work. Even if it does, you're probably open for the second punch

My entire association teaches for the block/counter in one move. Our local shorin-ryu and goju-ryu do the same drills the same way. When student looks as cringy as some do doing one-step, an instructor has some answering to do. We get yelled at when 9 year old girls arent taking it as seriously as adults.



When a student does a drill improperly, thats the fault of the instructor, not the drill. When you see folks walking through one-step, its because their instructor is letting them.

Many instructors do practice that way, and change a move to work. That is the essence of Bunkai

 

[K-man]

Well theyre your students now....I didnt think id need to clarify since they learned those from other instructors.

And he does it as anyone should be, not "blocks" from kata are going to be the exact same way in SD. I agree, that many of the hard blocks you see in forms arent actually blocks. Or shouldnt be, because unless you're 125% muscle benching a truck it likely wont work. Even if it does, you're probably open for the second punch

My entire association teaches for the block/counter in one move. Our local shorin-ryu and goju-ryu do the same drills the same way. When student looks as cringy as some do doing one-step, an instructor has some answering to do. We get yelled at when 9 year old girls arent taking it as seriously as adults.



When a student does a drill improperly, thats the fault of the instructor, not the drill. When you see folks walking through one-step, its because their instructor is letting them.

Many instructors do practice that way, and change a move to work. That is the essence of Bunkai

I'll give up and let it go. We are on different pages. These are not blocks from kata. They are blocks from kihon and absolutely nothing to do with bunkai.

 

[Drose427]

I'll give up and let it go. We are on different pages. These are not blocks from kata. They are blocks from kihon and absolutely nothing to do with bunkai.

They are blocks from kihon that are adapted for bunkai. Kihon that are also found in Kata, even if one interprets them different from the literal movement. Whether you take them from kata or kihon, they need to be adapted like in the video

Bunkai is simply applications from kata correct?

Ive never seen Kihon that cannot be found within kata.

Implying that that a movement that can be found within a form, and is adapted as bunkai to be a different tech, is not from kata and has nothing to do with bunkai because its an individual form doesnt make sense to me honestly. The movement is still in kata, taught in kata, used in kata.

The literal interpretation of the first two moves of heian shodan are a block to the down, then a punch.

One Bunkai is that series of moves as a takedown,

Although the moves individually are kihon, adapting them from that movement for SD would be Bunkai correct?

While the block in that video can be stand alone, its in several forms. One that i believe we'd both be familiar with is Bassai.

since its both Kihon, and a movement in Kata, is using it Bunkai or not? I feel it is, but you may not.

I think that's where we're clashing, differing interpretations and opinions of what can or should be classified as Bunkai. Especially considering for days now we'e agreed on how to adapt bunkai and other moves to use them for SD. We've agreed on several fundamentals and concepts, so lets just call it difference of opinions

Regardless, my point is that no matter where a move is taken from, they need to be adapted from the original method and applied to SD. Whether your are doing the drill one-step or more like a boxer. A student not understanding this, is the fault of his instructor and not a drill. Regardless of our opinions on drills, we seem to agree on how the drills should go, so lets just call it