I had a friend years ago who would assert whenever the subject of martial arts came up that formal martial arts training was unnecessary. It was his belief that you could just figure out what you needed to know on your own. I suppose that is possible, after all somebody had to come up with the techniques at one time, but I'm not close to being that inventive. When I tried to defend myself against the various bullies who liked to beat me up when I was a kid, making themselves look good in front of their friends, kicking butt over a tall, skinny, weak uncoordinated kid, I would throw these wide, fully telegraphed punches that were all too easy to see coming and punch within the arc to defeat me. I suppose it is possible through trial and error to find techniques that work for you, but I think it is the rare individual indeed who could come up with some sort of system completely on his own that is better than all the formalized, systematic martial arts systems that have been battle tested over years of trial by fire. What do you think, was my friend right, or was he a bit unrealistic in his opinion?
Is formal MA training necessary?
- Thread starter Joab
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Twin Fist
Grandmaster
your friend is an idiot. The worst kind of arm chair quarterback.
- Thread Starter
- #3
Former friend, I haven't seen him in years. And he was always butting into martial arts conversations with this unsolicited comment when I was talking with a friend who was into Arnis, uninvited.
JadecloudAlchemist
Master of Arts
Your ex-friend is wrong.
We saw in the early UFC fights that noone could beat Gracie and figure out how to beat him. Only through training in grappling could he be beaten. Most people have no idea how to get out of certain submissions like chokes and they quickly panic. Through training do you learn the technique to get out.
We saw in the early UFC fights that noone could beat Gracie and figure out how to beat him. Only through training in grappling could he be beaten. Most people have no idea how to get out of certain submissions like chokes and they quickly panic. Through training do you learn the technique to get out.
- Thread Starter
- #5
Well, theoretically I think he is right, given enough time in fact a chimpanzee could type out the first verses of Genesis on a type writer, but it would take a long time, with a lot of mistakes before you got it right.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
would anyone WANT to go through that process? do you have that many teeth to spare?
Necessary no, one hell of a good idea, yes
I've known some some pretty tough street fighters with no discipline, but they had to get their asses stomped before figuring out what to do.
Personally, I would rather learn from someone elses lessons then learn that on my own.
How many times do you need to get punched in the mouth before figuring out that closing your eyes and flinching doesn't work?
I've known some some pretty tough street fighters with no discipline, but they had to get their asses stomped before figuring out what to do.
Personally, I would rather learn from someone elses lessons then learn that on my own.
How many times do you need to get punched in the mouth before figuring out that closing your eyes and flinching doesn't work?
shihansmurf
Black Belt
No, formal training isn't necessary.
I mean, you don't need to be taught other skills right?
You can teach yourself to skydive? If, that is, you're a very fast learner.
The drop out rate for self taught sky diving is pretty high though......
Honestly, if a person wanted to teach themselves martial arts, I'm sure that they could have a certain level of success at it. The level wouldn't be very high, but a degree of ability is achievable. They could use books and videos, and assuming that they worked with diligence they could get quite skilled at parroting the information in the source material. Without a partner, though to actually try the material on all that great info(and there is a wealth of it on videos, amazing reference tools) remains purely thoeretical and non-applicable. More importantly, if that person's partner is just as ignorant of the skill set as he is, then his ability to give meaningful feedback is sorely limited.
If you want to learn martial arts and be a skilled martial artist, you need a teacher and that requires formalized(by that I mean having a teacher/student relationship and someone to train with) instruction. If you just want to ape the movements that you watched on a video or read about in a book, then you can get by without it, but you won't be able to perform martial arts very well. Depends on your goals, really.
One last thought, people who learn from books and videos are not self taught. They have simply substituted a non-responsive medium in place of an actual interactive instructor. They are not teaching themselves anything, they are still learning from whomever made that video or wrote that book. I wonder why, aside from geographical reasons, a person would choose to learn from a video of a given teacher over that real teacher? I tend to think that its because the live instructor would make corrections and hold the students to performing the material correctly, and being critiqued isn't acceptable to the type of "martial artist" that seeks to short circuit their training by avoiding a "formal" training experience.
Videos have their place. They are a great suplimental tool for an experienced martial artist. If you have a solid base of martial art skills then a book or video can grant you new insight or perspective. They can show you aspects of the arts that you have'nt been exposed to that you, then can experiment with and will serve to help you improve. Self Directed study in the martial arts is something you grow into, not start out being able to perform. You need formal training to ingrain that solid knowledge base.
Just my view
Mark
I mean, you don't need to be taught other skills right?
You can teach yourself to skydive? If, that is, you're a very fast learner.
The drop out rate for self taught sky diving is pretty high though......
Honestly, if a person wanted to teach themselves martial arts, I'm sure that they could have a certain level of success at it. The level wouldn't be very high, but a degree of ability is achievable. They could use books and videos, and assuming that they worked with diligence they could get quite skilled at parroting the information in the source material. Without a partner, though to actually try the material on all that great info(and there is a wealth of it on videos, amazing reference tools) remains purely thoeretical and non-applicable. More importantly, if that person's partner is just as ignorant of the skill set as he is, then his ability to give meaningful feedback is sorely limited.
If you want to learn martial arts and be a skilled martial artist, you need a teacher and that requires formalized(by that I mean having a teacher/student relationship and someone to train with) instruction. If you just want to ape the movements that you watched on a video or read about in a book, then you can get by without it, but you won't be able to perform martial arts very well. Depends on your goals, really.
One last thought, people who learn from books and videos are not self taught. They have simply substituted a non-responsive medium in place of an actual interactive instructor. They are not teaching themselves anything, they are still learning from whomever made that video or wrote that book. I wonder why, aside from geographical reasons, a person would choose to learn from a video of a given teacher over that real teacher? I tend to think that its because the live instructor would make corrections and hold the students to performing the material correctly, and being critiqued isn't acceptable to the type of "martial artist" that seeks to short circuit their training by avoiding a "formal" training experience.
Videos have their place. They are a great suplimental tool for an experienced martial artist. If you have a solid base of martial art skills then a book or video can grant you new insight or perspective. They can show you aspects of the arts that you have'nt been exposed to that you, then can experiment with and will serve to help you improve. Self Directed study in the martial arts is something you grow into, not start out being able to perform. You need formal training to ingrain that solid knowledge base.
Just my view
Mark
I would agree that formal training is unnecessary if you have a lot of experienced friends and training partners who will work with you and share their skills with you informally. Throughout history gifted individuals have emerged in the arts and sciences (including the martial arts) who have been portrayed as autodidacts. But on closer examination, it turns out that these supposedly self-taught individuals usually did learn from others, but informally, piecing together the information they needed to succeed. It is worth noting that such rare individuals capture our attention because it is definitely a harder road to success. Obviously, this kind of self-teaching and exploration is a lot more feasible after a person has achieved a high level of competence through traditional training methods.
Now that's just ignorant.
Formal training? Maybe not, if you define formal as a class and rigid curriculum.
Some form of training? Maybe not essential, if you're that rare individual who has the combination of natural talent and ability, and some pretty good medical insurance.
Sure, you might figure out the efficient ways of moving your body and ways to hit without harming yourself by trial and error. But those errors are going to be painful, at a minimum, and possibly crippling.
Of course, you could also fly from Virginia to California by basically repeating the Wright brothers experiments, developing material sciences and engineering, and eventually building your own jet, too. But isn't it a whole lot simpler to go to the airport and buy a ticket on an airline?
Same thing with learning to fight; isn't it simpler to at least start by learning what already worked for others? (And, sometimes, didn't work?)
Some form of training? Maybe not essential, if you're that rare individual who has the combination of natural talent and ability, and some pretty good medical insurance.
Sure, you might figure out the efficient ways of moving your body and ways to hit without harming yourself by trial and error. But those errors are going to be painful, at a minimum, and possibly crippling.
Of course, you could also fly from Virginia to California by basically repeating the Wright brothers experiments, developing material sciences and engineering, and eventually building your own jet, too. But isn't it a whole lot simpler to go to the airport and buy a ticket on an airline?
Same thing with learning to fight; isn't it simpler to at least start by learning what already worked for others? (And, sometimes, didn't work?)
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MarkBarlow
Purple Belt
Did your ex-friend ever pit his theory against the reality of a formally trained martial artist?
I often have guys in their teens and early twentys (not picking on that age group, just stating a fact) who drop by the dojo and tell me they're self-trained or have been training in the backyard with friends. The few times they've gotten out on the mat and seen how little they truly know has only hastened their exit. None have hung around long enough to learn what they thought they already knew.
It's easy to roll around with friends or swing sticks at each other and think you are accomplishing something. Once the circle is expanded and you are forced to deal with someone better, bigger, faster than yourself, self-training doesn't seem like such a great idea.
I often have guys in their teens and early twentys (not picking on that age group, just stating a fact) who drop by the dojo and tell me they're self-trained or have been training in the backyard with friends. The few times they've gotten out on the mat and seen how little they truly know has only hastened their exit. None have hung around long enough to learn what they thought they already knew.
It's easy to roll around with friends or swing sticks at each other and think you are accomplishing something. Once the circle is expanded and you are forced to deal with someone better, bigger, faster than yourself, self-training doesn't seem like such a great idea.
I knew a guy a few years ago that shared the same ideology about MA training. He said that he had fought a "karate guy"(I happened to know the guy he was referring to) and that he had beat the guy down pretty bad.
Now, given that the guy I am referring to(the idiot) was 6'4" and around 300lbs with the "karate guy" checking in at 5'5" and 120lbs and with only a couple of months training in, the fight did not end well for the MAist. Fast forward to my discussion with him, I am 6'3" and 225lbs and he thinks he is going to wipe the floor with me(at that time with only 22 years of training and 10 years of full contact fighting). But low and behold, before I could get ahold of him, he gets the crap stomped out of him by another MAist who was smaller and very seasoned in the art of Momma Said Break Yo D*** Jaw-do.
Needless to say, your friend is most likely, headed for the same route in life.
Now, given that the guy I am referring to(the idiot) was 6'4" and around 300lbs with the "karate guy" checking in at 5'5" and 120lbs and with only a couple of months training in, the fight did not end well for the MAist. Fast forward to my discussion with him, I am 6'3" and 225lbs and he thinks he is going to wipe the floor with me(at that time with only 22 years of training and 10 years of full contact fighting). But low and behold, before I could get ahold of him, he gets the crap stomped out of him by another MAist who was smaller and very seasoned in the art of Momma Said Break Yo D*** Jaw-do.
Needless to say, your friend is most likely, headed for the same route in life.
Omar B
Senior Master
Nothing other than breathing, eating and reproduction are necessary in human life, are the martial arts good to though? Yes they are.
Don't listen to armchair quarterbacks, they are loud mouths makign up for some deficiency by pointing out flaws where there are non. When I was a teen and just moved to NY I was introduced to a guy who was a "self taught martial artist." He was as agile as a monkey and could jump all over the place and to the unskilled eye his huge spinning, looping kicks looked impressive.
He constantly made fun of my going to karate class, saying thing's like "who trains since they were 5 and never fights?" As if training and fighting go hand in hand.
In any case we did end up sparring, he ended up on the ground in a puddle bleeding from the nose. He claimed I didn't use karate because I punched him! Goes to show, you can't teach the ignorant anything, just do your thing.
Don't listen to armchair quarterbacks, they are loud mouths makign up for some deficiency by pointing out flaws where there are non. When I was a teen and just moved to NY I was introduced to a guy who was a "self taught martial artist." He was as agile as a monkey and could jump all over the place and to the unskilled eye his huge spinning, looping kicks looked impressive.
He constantly made fun of my going to karate class, saying thing's like "who trains since they were 5 and never fights?" As if training and fighting go hand in hand.
In any case we did end up sparring, he ended up on the ground in a puddle bleeding from the nose. He claimed I didn't use karate because I punched him! Goes to show, you can't teach the ignorant anything, just do your thing.
Nomad
Master Black Belt
Not at all necessary.
To become a really good fighter, go somewhere with a lot of tough, mean guys and pick a fight. If you survive, repeat. By the time you've done this a few dozen times, you'll have taught yourself a lot about what will and won't work in a fight, and will be starting to develop some pretty good technique (if you're a slow learner... sorry to your next of kin).
Of course, you could save yourself a lot of danger and pain by training first and learning some of the principles involved in fighting from someone else who knows what they're doing.
Keep in mind if you follow this road, there's also a chance that you won't feel as much a need to prove yourself, and could end up not knowing if the techniques you've learned are really effective in that life and death situation that you've avoided instead of leaping headfirst into. Your choice, really.
To become a really good fighter, go somewhere with a lot of tough, mean guys and pick a fight. If you survive, repeat. By the time you've done this a few dozen times, you'll have taught yourself a lot about what will and won't work in a fight, and will be starting to develop some pretty good technique (if you're a slow learner... sorry to your next of kin).
Of course, you could save yourself a lot of danger and pain by training first and learning some of the principles involved in fighting from someone else who knows what they're doing.
Keep in mind if you follow this road, there's also a chance that you won't feel as much a need to prove yourself, and could end up not knowing if the techniques you've learned are really effective in that life and death situation that you've avoided instead of leaping headfirst into. Your choice, really.
shihansmurf
Black Belt
Oh sure, if you wanna do things the smart and safe way. Where would the sense of accomplishment be in that?
Mark
Some very good posts above that go to prove, as if it needed proving, that there are a number of very wise heads here at MT when it comes to martial arts ... who'd have thought it? An MA site where people know what they're talking about :lol:.
It's an embarassing story to recount in some ways but one of the reasons why I had such a bad opinion of the Ninjitsu (yes, I know but that's how I learned to spell it first) chaps when I first joined here was my real world experiences with wannabe black pajama 'fighters'. Those people who bought into the Ninja Myth when it crept out of the shadows over here in the '80's.
I met a couple of these in my empty-hand days who were really keen to show me just how superior what they had learned from the books they had ... right up to the moment when they ended up on the deck. I even, to my undying shame, remember telling one chap as I helped him up "Books don't hit back!".
Other than that somewhat 'guilty pleasure', I have nothing terribly substantive to add to the points already made except to elaborate a little into the area of armed arts. Here the 'self-taught' route is even more problematic and doomed to failure of the bloody kind.
It is also one where the 'back garden baton twirlers' {they get ever so aggressive when you call them that :angel:} seem to run off at the mouth even more than the Pretend Ninjerz brigade.
I have had one of these actually 'call me out', so to speak, when I dared to criticise his swordwork on YouTube. I was tactful enough not to do so via public comment but made a private mail explaining that whilst what he was doing looked fine on video, it was not a sword art and he should not fool himself into thinking it was.
Cue bluster and offers to "see who was 'the man'". I said that ordinarily I would not think of doing such a thing and pointed out that I was not particularly well trained myself yet, only having studied for a couple of years but that if he was willing to accept the risk we could accidently hurt each other, then I was game.
Cue silence.
My point is that such people do fall into two camps. The 'Blagger' and the 'Self Deluder'. The former knows that they're talking nonsense but likes to see if 'talking the talk' is sufficient to be the Big Man. The latter is in some ways worse but at least more honest because they truly believe that their self-taught skillz are the bees-knees.
It's an embarassing story to recount in some ways but one of the reasons why I had such a bad opinion of the Ninjitsu (yes, I know but that's how I learned to spell it first
) chaps when I first joined here was my real world experiences with wannabe black pajama 'fighters'. Those people who bought into the Ninja Myth when it crept out of the shadows over here in the '80's. I met a couple of these in my empty-hand days who were really keen to show me just how superior what they had learned from the books they had ... right up to the moment when they ended up on the deck
. I even, to my undying shame, remember telling one chap as I helped him up "Books don't hit back!".Other than that somewhat 'guilty pleasure', I have nothing terribly substantive to add to the points already made except to elaborate a little into the area of armed arts. Here the 'self-taught' route is even more problematic and doomed to failure of the bloody kind.
It is also one where the 'back garden baton twirlers' {they get ever so aggressive when you call them that :angel:} seem to run off at the mouth even more than the Pretend Ninjerz brigade.
I have had one of these actually 'call me out', so to speak, when I dared to criticise his swordwork on YouTube. I was tactful enough not to do so via public comment but made a private mail explaining that whilst what he was doing looked fine on video, it was not a sword art and he should not fool himself into thinking it was.
Cue bluster and offers to "see who was 'the man'". I said that ordinarily I would not think of doing such a thing and pointed out that I was not particularly well trained myself yet, only having studied for a couple of years but that if he was willing to accept the risk we could accidently hurt each other, then I was game.
Cue silence.
My point is that such people do fall into two camps. The 'Blagger' and the 'Self Deluder'. The former knows that they're talking nonsense but likes to see if 'talking the talk' is sufficient to be the Big Man. The latter is in some ways worse but at least more honest because they truly believe that their self-taught skillz are the bees-knees.
Cirdan
Senior Master
Some people are natural fighters. Even those, or rather particularly those, can benefit greatly from seeking out a good teacher.
The selftaught backyard ninjers with their 440 katanas and claims like "there are no punches in eastern arts" are a constant source of amusement.
The selftaught backyard ninjers with their 440 katanas and claims like "there are no punches in eastern arts" are a constant source of amusement.
- Thread Starter
- #18
No, I don't have that many teeth to spare.
- Thread Starter
- #19
Thanks to everyone for their input. Yes, this guy was basically ignorant, and one wastes a lot of time listening to ignorant people. I have trained with teachers who had a lot of street fighting experience and what they taught came from what they found worked. Its a far more intelligent approach to learn from someone who knows what they are doing than just trying to figure it out on your own. No sense in trying to rediscover the wheel, learn form those who know what they are talking about.
And what this rather ignorant fellow seemed to be suggesting was that you could just figure out on your own how to defend yourself, just start practicing random movements and figure it out on your own. I think that is ludicrous. He also tried to discourage me from martial arts training by stating "With your size you don't have anything to worry about" Being big is not enough, and sometimes is a magnet. A lot of guys want to pick a fight with a big guy to make themselves look impressive. And I'm not huge, 6' over 200, a heavyweight yes, but no NFL lineman type. An ignorant fellow was what my ex friend was, and ignorant fellows desrve to not be listened too.
And what this rather ignorant fellow seemed to be suggesting was that you could just figure out on your own how to defend yourself, just start practicing random movements and figure it out on your own. I think that is ludicrous. He also tried to discourage me from martial arts training by stating "With your size you don't have anything to worry about" Being big is not enough, and sometimes is a magnet. A lot of guys want to pick a fight with a big guy to make themselves look impressive. And I'm not huge, 6' over 200, a heavyweight yes, but no NFL lineman type. An ignorant fellow was what my ex friend was, and ignorant fellows desrve to not be listened too.
TigerCraneGuy
Orange Belt
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2009
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- 78
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Well said, friend. Ignore the armchair warriors.
As it is written:
The tongue of the wise useth knowledge aright: but the mouth of fools poureth out foolishness. (Proverbs 15:2)
Nuff said
Regards,
TCG
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