Is EPKA Outdated?

[evenflow1121]

I guess I am going to bite. I do not believe it is outdated, I believe the concepts from our system are universal concepts, and concepts that can always be applied. I do not see the harm in incorporating certain things for the benefit of students, such as grappling techniques so long as it is not just copy paste, and dont call it Parker kenpo. However, I would always be cautious of what to add, these days a lot of kenpo schools like to add fotm stuff simply to get kids in the door, its sad but I ve seen it more often than not.

 

[Doc]

What makes you think that this is a new idea??? Some, if not many of us are doing all of these things and more. As far as EPAK missing ground work, so what. Is grappling the end all of violent altercations? No, not in my experiences. If you want to be an Ultimate Fighter, Cage Fighter, etc... then by all means, strap on your board shorts and have at it. EPAK was not designed to be a sporting system. It was designed to be a tool for self protection against violent attacks. From Delayed Sword through all 154 techniques plus extensions, EPAK is ripe with potentially lethal strikes. Not for use in sporting events.

The Gracies, and umpteen other grapplers gaining fame in mixed martial arts events are not thugs in a parking lot, at an ATM, or even a drunken badass in your local watering hole. EPAK is more then adequate to protect its' followers in these situations. In my 40 years, through many many fights, unprovoked attacks, underground fights, vendetta fights, and drunken badass jaunts, Ive yet to face an opponent that WANTS to go to the ground. Some have ended up there, but not the 90% that grappling proponents tout as gospel.

The whole big confusion in this topic is the differentiation between fighting and self defense. Two people agreeing to fight is more likely to end up in a grappling situation, especially if either party has grappling experience. Surprise attacks are less likely to end up in a grappling situation because of many variables, far too many to get into in this post, but, time restraints, intent, adrenaline, etc. are just the tip of the iceberg. No generalizations exist when speaking of violent attacks, a few however do when speaking of fights.

As far as defense against blades and sticks, EPAK deals with these...and not just in the techniques, but in the principles. Now the age old debate shall ensue as to whether the techniques are the end all of self protection, to which, my answer is no. But, now we have the gaseous expansion, rearrangement, variable expansion, what if, formulation, prefixing, suffixing, sets, forms, and oh yeah, the techniques themselves, as reference points in defending against a blade or a club, or any other instrument that can be likened to the aforementioned. Also, Chuck Taylor has an innovative tool to use in these instances, simply turn and leave, quickly.....I know, I know, not always an option, but, the best one when available, and not only against a weapon, but against any violent altercation.

So, there you have it, my rant for the evening. Just got done watching Ultimate Knockouts.....pretty canny the way those MMA'ers are still able to KTFO of an opponent while standing....

Yours in the SELF PRESERVATION art of EPAK,
Gary Catherman

Gary please. You know it tends to ruffle feathers when you make sense.

 

[Doc]

Interesting. I assume that this was because a sprawl makes you more vulnerable to attack from secondary attackers, but assumptions often get me in trouble.

Jeff

yes and no sir. He indeed rejected it because it makes you vulnerable, and it intentionally turns you into a 'grappler.' However he primarily rejected it because it was inferior to other methods. He thought so little of it, he never mentioned or even included in his commercial product even though he predicted the 'wrestling craze' return.

 

[Doc]

I guess I am going to bite. I do not believe it is outdated, I believe the concepts from our system are universal concepts, and concepts that can always be applied. I do not see the harm in incorporating certain things for the benefit of students, such as grappling techniques so long as it is not just copy paste, and dont call it Parker kenpo. However, I would always be cautious of what to add, these days a lot of kenpo schools like to add fotm stuff simply to get kids in the door, its sad but I ve seen it more often than not.

I can agree with you sir on that.

 

[Carol]

In my 40 years, through many many fights, unprovoked attacks, underground fights, vendetta fights, and drunken badass jaunts, Ive yet to face an opponent that WANTS to go to the ground. Some have ended up there, but not the 90% that grappling proponents tout as gospel.

I never believed that either. But, being someone that appreciates BJJ, I will say this - for my Kenpo training, I want to learn from an instructor that is completely vested in NOT having the fight go to the ground to begin with.

Personally, I'm not a person that is big or strong or proficient. The best weapons that I can bring to a fight...dexterity, agility, lateral thinking skills. If my fight goes to the ground, I lose the "straegery" of these weapons. The Kenpo training that I am looking for is in a teacher that is completely vested in NOT having the fight go to the ground in the first place. What I do outside of class is my choice, what my instructor does out of class is his choice. But while I am training under him, I want to learn all I can to keep me in a place where I can stay on my feet. If my instructor does not think that is a realistic goal for me, then I have a bad match for my training.

Those are my goals, my investment, my training. Someone else may have different goals. That is their investment, and their training.

 

[Doc]

I never believed that either. But, being someone that appreciates BJJ, I will say this - for my Kenpo training, I want to learn from an instructor that is completely vested in NOT having the fight go to the ground to begin with.

Personally, I'm not a person that is big or strong or proficient. The best weapons that I can bring to a fight...dexterity, agility, lateral thinking skills. If my fight goes to the ground, I lose the "straegery" of these weapons. The Kenpo training that I am looking for is in a teacher that is completely vested in NOT having the fight go to the ground in the first place. What I do outside of class is my choice, what my instructor does out of class is his choice. But while I am training under him, I want to learn all I can to keep me in a place where I can stay on my feet. If my instructor does not think that is a realistic goal for me, then I have a bad match for my training.

Those are my goals, my investment, my training. Someone else may have different goals. That is their investment, and their training.

I don't think anyone is more vested in that philosophy than SL-4. In fact we train and prove it constantly, with nods from some pretty fare experienced grapplers. It does require a major shift in philosophy, and a willingness to develop the basic skills that allow it to function, however. And, sorry to say, it doesn't work with a motion based concept.

 

[Kalicombat]

Gary please. You know it tends to ruffle feathers when you make sense.

Doc, Thanks for the reply.....Been Rufflin feathers for way too long now, and still love it.

Sorry I missed you when you were in Houston at J Buggs. I had knee surgery that week, and hobblin around recuperating. All is well now. I'm about 85-90 % with one more week of physical therapy. No more skateboards for this old man......LOL.

Gary C.

 

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

OK, I am one of the strongest believers in EPAK whether you call it motion kenpo or SL4 I really don't care. I love it, I believe it and I have had to use it on the street against more then 1 opponet and I know that is works. It is deadly, it is fast and it is one kick *** art and I plan to spend the rest of my life to the study and practise of it.

Now, I completely agree that EPAK is a SELF DEFENSE BASED SYSTEM AND IT FUNCTIONS VERY VERY GOOD AT THAT. I also completely agree that it is not a fighting system but with some work on entires, deflections and limb destruction you can turn the 3 beat self defense techniques into a 1 beat reaction or, offensively create the required opening or angle of entry.

Now, as far a grappling goes I will tell you that the 154 techniques simply do not address it good enough. I am sorry for all of you hard core tradionalist out there but I have been grappling for a very long time and the RAM techniques will not work. Now I am sure that Doc is gonna tell me otherwise but this is going to be one of those things that I am going to have to see it to believe it and then probably feel it (Doc, I will have to get my butt out there so you can show me. hahaha)

In regards to the weapons techniques; it is my opinion that you better not use any of the stick or knive techniques against anyone who has more then 1 month of FMA training. I really really believe that a knive is extremely dangerous and dealing with it is one of the most difficult self defense sitituations. I have had the honor to have this discussion with some of the best in EPAK & FMA (Lee Wedlake, Zach Whitson, Al McLuckie to name a few) and they all agree that there are some good ideas in the EPAK weapons techniques but there are better ways and safer ways of dealing with that knive. Personaly I prefer to run like hell but if you got to deal with it I promise you I would not do any lance technique. I would rely more on my PT Kali to defend against a knife.

Once again I still think that the methond of training in EPAK is more outdated then the system it self. That is more on the lines of what I wanted to discuss. Techniques lines are ok in the beging but should a 2nd ,3rd or 4th black be basing thier skill on how well they can do a techniques on a partner who lets you do the techniques while they stand there and do not resist?

 

[Kenpodoc]

Now, as far a grappling goes I will tell you that the 154 techniques simply do not address it good enough. I am sorry for all of you hard core tradionalist out there but I have been grappling for a very long time and the RAM techniques will not work. Now I am sure that Doc is gonna tell me otherwise but this is going to be one of those things that I am going to have to see it to believe it and then probably feel it (Doc, I will have to get my butt out there so you can show me. hahaha)

I know I can't pull off the ram techniques well against an experienced opponent. But, Mr. Parker was friends with Gene Labell and I understand they worked together and tested Kenpo. This makes me believe that Mr. Parker could use Kenpo to defeat a talented and persistant Grappler. I suspect the first step is not to go to ground and I suspect that without the restrictions involved in ring arts (i.e. the UFC) it is possible to defend against a good grappler.

In regards to the weapons techniques; it is my opinion that you better not use any of the stick or knive techniques against anyone who has more then 1 month of FMA training. I really really believe that a knive is extremely dangerous and dealing with it is one of the most difficult self defense sitituations. I have had the honor to have this discussion with some of the best in EPAK & FMA (Lee Wedlake, Zach Whitson, Al McLuckie to name a few) and they all agree that there are some good ideas in the EPAK weapons techniques but there are better ways and safer ways of dealing with that knive. Personaly I prefer to run like hell but if you got to deal with it I promise you I would not do any lance technique. I would rely more on my PT Kali to defend against a knife.

If Mr. Parkers Kenpo only consisted of the few knife and gun techniques I would agree with you. Obviously in the commercial system the subject is just barely touched upon. Oddly enough, after I saw Vladamir Vasiliev do his Systema the Kenpo Knife techniques began to make sense to me but only as a beginning approach to the concept of knife defense. Kenpo is not designed for Knife dueling like the FMA tend to be. The approach is different but only superficially addressed. Judging by my ability to defend against a magic marker running is my only real defense. However if cornered the Kenpo drive to the center and overwhelm the opponent would serve me better than most of the Tapi tapi FMA movements taught. (Although if Lee, Zach or Al attacked me I might as well just expose my throat and get it over with.)

Once again I still think that the methond of training in EPAK is more outdated then the system it self. That is more on the lines of what I wanted to discuss. Techniques lines are ok in the beging but should a 2nd ,3rd or 4th black be basing thier skill on how well they can do a techniques on a partner who lets you do the techniques while they stand there and do not resist?

I think that this depends on how you run the technique line and how the attacks are presented.

Respectfully,

Jeff

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

OK, I am one of the strongest believers in EPAK whether you call it motion kenpo or SL4 I really don't care. I love it, I believe it and I have had to use it on the street against more then 1 opponet and I know that is works. It is deadly, it is fast and it is one kick *** art and I plan to spend the rest of my life to the study and practise of it.

Now, I completely agree that EPAK is a SELF DEFENSE BASED SYSTEM AND IT FUNCTIONS VERY VERY GOOD AT THAT. I also completely agree that it is not a fighting system but with some work on entires, deflections and limb destruction you can turn the 3 beat self defense techniques into a 1 beat reaction or, offensively create the required opening or angle of entry.

Now, as far a grappling goes I will tell you that the 154 techniques simply do not address it good enough. I am sorry for all of you hard core tradionalist out there but I have been grappling for a very long time and the RAM techniques will not work. Now I am sure that Doc is gonna tell me otherwise but this is going to be one of those things that I am going to have to see it to believe it and then probably feel it (Doc, I will have to get my butt out there so you can show me. hahaha)

In regards to the weapons techniques; it is my opinion that you better not use any of the stick or knive techniques against anyone who has more then 1 month of FMA training. I really really believe that a knive is extremely dangerous and dealing with it is one of the most difficult self defense sitituations. I have had the honor to have this discussion with some of the best in EPAK & FMA (Lee Wedlake, Zach Whitson, Al McLuckie to name a few) and they all agree that there are some good ideas in the EPAK weapons techniques but there are better ways and safer ways of dealing with that knive. Personaly I prefer to run like hell but if you got to deal with it I promise you I would not do any lance technique. I would rely more on my PT Kali to defend against a knife.

Once again I still think that the methond of training in EPAK is more outdated then the system it self. That is more on the lines of what I wanted to discuss. Techniques lines are ok in the beging but should a 2nd ,3rd or 4th black be basing thier skill on how well they can do a techniques on a partner who lets you do the techniques while they stand there and do not resist?

Open minded wisdom finally comes to this thread!
No system is "perfect", "complete", or "finished".
Kenpo is a great self-defense system. But there are other systems that have more developed solutions for weapons and grappling.
And the comment about training methods and technique lines is right on target!

 

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

I have also heard that Mr Parker was a Judo black belt from a reliable source (maybe Doc knows for sure or not) but why did he not address the issue of if you are caught on the ground. If we are going to play the web of knowledge game and complete catorgies of possible attackes then why is there not any techniques to deal with once your are already on the ground. Now I know that the object is not to get onto the ground but hey ***** happens and you got to be prepared to deal with it right!

What makes the techniques work is reaction to pain stimulus and joint manipulation. If your against a trained fighter then you need to have some countering and recountering in your bag of tricks because his reaction to pain will be much less. (This is where Doc is gonna school me and say that in SL4 you rely on nerve manipulations and not pain. Can't wait to see it/feel it Doc!)

As far as the weapons go I still think that if someone knows how to use a knife your just better off running like hell. Kenpo has some good ideas with all the open ended traingles but they do not take in to consideration that the person may be as trained as you if not more.

 

[HKphooey]

What about Speakman's Kenpo 5.0? Supposedly deals with ground fightinng. I started a post asking about the DVD and/or the mateial taught.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=582677#post582677

 

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

That is the 1st that I have heard of any senior doing any type of Kenpo on the ground. Bravo! Hip Hip Horay....

Now I only saw the clip on the web site but has anyone seen these dvd's? Hell I will probably buy them just out of being curious as hell as to the quality of the techniques.

Has Mr Speakman been learning groud work from someone? If so who and how long has he been working on it?

 

[HKphooey]

That is the 1st that I have heard of any senior doing any type of Kenpo on the ground. Bravo! Hip Hip Horay....

Now I only saw the clip on the web site but has anyone seen these dvd's? Hell I will probably buy them just out of being curious as hell as to the quality of the techniques.

Has Mr Speakman been learning groud work from someone? If so who and how long has he been working on it?

From one of his websites:

"American Kenpo version 5.0 is the hybrid of the last generation version of American Kenpo taught directly from Senior Grand Master Ed Parker to Jeff Speakman and cage and ground fighting brought into the equation by Mr. Speakman’s senior student Trever Sherman. Mr. Sherman has done extensive cage refereeing in several states and competed as an amateur cage fighter to bring this type of combat back to Kenpo so he and Mr. Speakman could create Kenpo answers to defending against an opponent with these skills in the street. Approximately 31 new techniques have been created and replacing out dated or redundant existing techniques. In addition another 20 techniques have been altered in varying degrees to accommodate the same thinking.

It is important to recognize that this is not grappling or cage fighting but an expanding philosophy of Kenpo and the Kenpo ground system coupled with training drills and sparring techniques. It is modifying the existing 4.0 system while remaining completely within the combat models and thinking of American Kenpo to address this increasing and prevalent void in the Kenpo world. By keeping within these models of Kenpo we have been able to develop a system combining the best of these two worlds to give our students the maximum ability to deal with the very real possibilities of becoming involved in these kinds of altercations. In addition it allows us to continue to develop ourselves within the mind-body-spirit paradigm to reach a higher level of individual performance and sustained excellence therefore strengthening the group as a whole."

 

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

From one of his websites:

"American Kenpo version 5.0 is the hybrid of the last generation version of American Kenpo taught directly from Senior Grand Master Ed Parker to Jeff Speakman and cage and ground fighting brought into the equation by Mr. Speakman’s senior student Trever Sherman. Mr. Sherman has done extensive cage refereeing in several states and competed as an amateur cage fighter to bring this type of combat back to Kenpo so he and Mr. Speakman could create Kenpo answers to defending against an opponent with these skills in the street. Approximately 31 new techniques have been created and replacing out dated or redundant existing techniques. In addition another 20 techniques have been altered in varying degrees to accommodate the same thinking.

It is important to recognize that this is not grappling or cage fighting but an expanding philosophy of Kenpo and the Kenpo ground system coupled with training drills and sparring techniques. It is modifying the existing 4.0 system while remaining completely within the combat models and thinking of American Kenpo to address this increasing and prevalent void in the Kenpo world. By keeping within these models of Kenpo we have been able to develop a system combining the best of these two worlds to give our students the maximum ability to deal with the very real possibilities of becoming involved in these kinds of altercations. In addition it allows us to continue to develop ourselves within the mind-body-spirit paradigm to reach a higher level of individual performance and sustained excellence therefore strengthening the group as a whole."

I was not asking about information that was already on the web site but rather if anyone had already reviewed the dvd's

 

[Brian Jones]

That is the 1st that I have heard of any senior doing any type of Kenpo on the ground. Bravo! Hip Hip Horay....

Now I only saw the clip on the web site but has anyone seen these dvd's? Hell I will probably buy them just out of being curious as hell as to the quality of the techniques.

Has Mr Speakman been learning groud work from someone? If so who and how long has he been working on it?

haven't seen the DVD's but the clips don't look too bad. I haven't worked any of the material so can't comment on that. Mr. Speakman isn't the only senior looking at ground work. Paul Mills has had ground work in his curriculum for some time.

Brian Jones

 

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

I saw a few clips of Mr Mills doing some different stuff a while back ago. Who did he get his ground education from or is it just some stuff he made up himself?

 

[HKphooey]

I was not asking about information that was already on the web site but rather if anyone had already reviewed the dvd's

Has Mr Speakman been learning groud work from someone? If so who and how long has he been working on it?

The post was in your regard to whom he was working with on the grappling. I thought you had not seen the info, as you asked a question that was answered on the website. Sorry for the extra info.

 

[HKphooey]

haven't seen the DVD's but the clips don't look too bad. I haven't worked any of the material so can't comment on that. Mr. Speakman isn't the only senior looking at ground work. Paul Mills has had ground work in his curriculum for some time.

Brian Jones

Does Paul Mills use kenpo material/principles or is it entirely another style worked into the kenpo?

 

[Doc]

That is the 1st that I have heard of any senior doing any type of Kenpo on the ground. Bravo! Hip Hip Horay....

Now I only saw the clip on the web site but has anyone seen these dvd's? Hell I will probably buy them just out of being curious as hell as to the quality of the techniques.

Has Mr Speakman been learning groud work from someone? If so who and how long has he been working on it?

Jeff Speakman, strictly speaking is not a Kenpo Senior.