Is EPKA Outdated?

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

This is a pretty interesting question that I have been thinking about for some time now and I wanted to see what everyone else thought about it.

Is it time to make some changes to EPAK? Personaly I think there is alot of room for improvement on the weapons techniques, ground work, health & wellness and stand up grappling? What about the method of training ? I mean standing in a technique line is good for a little while but how much benifit do you really get out of doing it all the time as your method for training?

Seriously, if Mr Parker was still alive how many changes would he have made since FMA, MMA and Healing Arts have become so popular?

I know that some will think this is a taboo subject but I think it is valid.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

This is a pretty interesting question that I have been thinking about for some time now and I wanted to see what everyone else thought about it.

Is it time to make some changes to EPAK? Personaly I think there is alot of room for improvement on the weapons techniques, ground work, health & wellness and stand up grappling? What about the method of training ? I mean standing in a technique line is good for a little while but how much benifit do you really get out of doing it all the time as your method for training?

Seriously, if Mr Parker was still alive how many changes would he have made since FMA, MMA and Healing Arts have become so popular?

I know that some will think this is a taboo subject but I think it is valid.

Good Points (especially the bolded ones), the system is over due for a few improvements despite being still effective today. But times are changing, and Kenpo for the large part has ceased to change to keep up. While not quite outdated or obsolete yet, if things continue to stagnate it's just a matter of time....

 

[HKphooey]

It is a great question! Especially is you believe that American Kenpo is not a system of techniques and forms, but a system of thinking and evolving.

Just like many of the posts have already stated, do not be too quick to judge if something works or does not work. GM Parker had already started to incorporate some other styles into Kenpo. Whether it was for commercial reasons or necessity, it still made people think. Work with other kenpo practioners to get other views on how something may or may not work. The basic standard of proving/disproving a scientific or physical principle should always be there. And as always, be sure you are qualified to make that decision before you teach those findings to others.

Just my .02 cents.

 

[kenpohack]

Well, given Mr. Parker's penchant for change, he probably would have made several adaptations to the system since the early 90s had he not passed. I can't imagine Mr. Parker not incorporating more takedown defenses and ground techniques to respond to the proliferation of grappling systems. If nothing else, the introduction of sprawling techniques seems to be a necessity. I study bjj (as a hobbyist) to improve my ground skill because of the lack of curriculum in kenpo. I'll probably never compete in a grappling tournament, mma competition, or even offer much of a fight against a serious jiu-jitsu practitioner...but I hope to be able to fight off the average joe or amateur wrestler who happens to take me down. I less concerned with stand-up grappling techniques because many are already in the system, especially in the extensions. The lack of ground fighting and defense is still my single greatest dissapointment with kenpo.

I'm not sure if Mr. Parker was into healing arts. I don't know if he had a background in internal arts. Even if he did, it would be tough to incorporate that curriculum into a commercial system. While I have nothing against the healing arts, I fail to see the value in studying arcane forms of medicine that are of dubious effectiveness. I do think that there is value in oriental medicine for doctors and medical professionals. However, I fail to see what good the study of healing arts will do for a martial artist. It's not like we are going to diagnose patients. I don't know about you, but I'm certainly not going to hang around after a fight to fix any damage I have caused. I'm getting my a$$ out of dodge before the cops come around.

 

[Flying Crane]

However, I fail to see what good the study of healing arts will do for a martial artist. It's not like we are going to diagnose patients. I don't know about you, but I'm certainly not going to hang around after a fight to fix any damage I have caused. I'm getting my a$$ out of dodge before the cops come around.

Given the nature of the martial arts as a contact combat system, knowledge of healing arts would certainly be useful to heal training injuries in yourself or your training partners and students. It would also be useful to patch yourself up after a real fight, even if you don't want to hang around to fix up your attacker.

traditional Asian medicine certainly has benefits, which even Western medical doctors are now acknowledging and accepting. Like anything else, it takes a lot of study and practice and a long time to develope the knowledge and skill to successfully apply the techniques. This doesn't make them of dubious effectiveness. Like any medical treatment, the right treatment for the illness or injury is effective, and an inappropriate treatment is not, and can even be dangerous. For some illnesses and injuries, Western medicine is certainly most appropriate, but I wouldn't write off Asian medicine as Dubious.

Given the time and study needed to become effective with Asian medicine, it is certainly not for everyone (just like Western Medicine, most people don't have the time, money, and inclination to go thru medical school and residency to become a doctor). that's OK, but I wouldn't discount it.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Ahhh... my favorite topic again.

Please see this thread ... one of the best threads ever on Martial Talk:

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8597&highlight=kenpo+21st+century

 

[jfarnsworth]

You just had to bring that one back out of the archieves, didn't you?

 

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

I have seen different threads that were like this however what I am trying to stress here is the method of training.

Techniques lines are ok for a while but we need to break away from that and look for other ways to improve ourselves. Spar, spar spar and when you are tired of that fight! Spar empty handed, spar with a training blade, spar with a stick, spar against several attackers. Lean how to make your kenpo work and become alive with someone being resistant!

As far as the lack of Kenpo groud work well that is a mute poit and everyone agrees with me on that and to the credit of many kenpoist out there they have gone out and tried to get some ground experience. I know others think that the weapon techniques work and I will agree if you are fighting someone who does not have a single day in any FMA. Otherwise you are dead meat

 

[JasonASmith]

I certainly hope not!
I am willing to dedicate the rest of my life(and possibly my children's lives, if they so desire) to it's study!

 

[MattJ]

Techniques lines are ok for a while but we need to break away from that and look for other ways to improve ourselves. Spar, spar spar and when you are tired of that fight! Spar empty handed, spar with a training blade, spar with a stick, spar against several attackers. Lean how to make your kenpo work and become alive with someone being resistant!

Couldn't agree more. EPAK is a good system PROVIDED that you train to be able to use it. The static attacker technique line thing is useful, but so is sparring. But you wouldn't know from the way that some instructors treat sparring.

You gotta take your stuff to the bank!

 

[MJS]

Ahhh... my favorite topic again.

Please see this thread ... one of the best threads ever on Martial Talk:

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8597&highlight=kenpo+21st+century

WOW!! Talk about a blast from the past!! Yes, I'm in agreement, that was one of the best!!

Mike

 

[Atlanta-Kenpo]

Just to make this make a bit more sense when I am referring to sparring I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT PUTTING ON POINT KARATE GEAR AND GOING AT IT. If you want to put on some gear ok then wear MMA glove (open fingers!), boxing head gear, mouth piece and groin cup and go at it. Start from boxing range and take it as far as you want. Sometimes I go till a take down or sometimes I go all the way to a submission. I even reverse it and start and the "all most submission" and defend till I get on my feet and in a dominate position.

 

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Well, given Mr. Parker's penchant for change, he probably would have made several adaptations to the system since the early 90s had he not passed.

Agreed

I can't imagine Mr. Parker not incorporating more takedown defenses and ground techniques to respond to the proliferation of grappling systems. If nothing else, the introduction of sprawling techniques seems to be a necessity.

The sprawl is already there in several places. and several variations such as double underhook, double overhook, over-and-under, the whizzer, etc.

I study bjj (as a hobbyist) to improve my ground skill because of the lack of curriculum in kenpo. I'll probably never compete in a grappling tournament, mma competition, or even offer much of a fight against a serious jiu-jitsu practitioner...but I hope to be able to fight off the average joe or amateur wrestler who happens to take me down.

Commendable, my personal opinion since serious Jiu jitsu practitioners are on the rise? Train a little more for the ground work before these guys become the majority just like Judo was for a time.

I less concerned with stand-up grappling techniques because many are already in the system, especially in the extensions.

Agreed to an extent. but my background is a little biased with more grappling than meny Kenpoist expose themselves to.

The lack of ground fighting and defense is still my single greatest dissapointment with kenpo.

knowing is half the battle....

I'm not sure if Mr. Parker was into healing arts. I don't know if he had a background in internal arts. Even if he did, it would be tough to incorporate that curriculum into a commercial system. While I have nothing against the healing arts, I fail to see the value in studying arcane forms of medicine that are of dubious effectiveness. I do think that there is value in oriental medicine for doctors and medical professionals. However, I fail to see what good the study of healing arts will do for a martial artist. It's not like we are going to diagnose patients. I don't know about you, but I'm certainly not going to hang around after a fight to fix any damage I have caused. I'm getting my a$$ out of dodge before the cops come around.

This shows a fundamental lack of knowledge of eastern medicine. Many of the more effective treatments we use today (particularly for minor injuries of joints and ligaments which are a martial artist's number one ranking injury) are eastern in origin. Many of them are unchanged as well. I'd humbly suggest a little or a lot more research in this area to educate yourself.

....Makes ya wonder how people can have faith in "modern" medicine and denounce "arcane" eastern medicine yet train in "modern" martial arts that are derived from "arcane" eastern fighting methods.....

Not a slam, just food for thought.

 

[MattJ]

The sprawl is already there in several places

Hmmmm......that is a new one on me. Which technique has a sprawl in it? EPAK has some very good stand up grappling, but I do not remember seeing the sprawl (as I know it) in any of the SD techniques.

 

[MJS]

This is a pretty interesting question that I have been thinking about for some time now and I wanted to see what everyone else thought about it.

Is it time to make some changes to EPAK? Personaly I think there is alot of room for improvement on the weapons techniques, ground work, health & wellness and stand up grappling? What about the method of training ? I mean standing in a technique line is good for a little while but how much benifit do you really get out of doing it all the time as your method for training?

Seriously, if Mr Parker was still alive how many changes would he have made since FMA, MMA and Healing Arts have become so popular?

I know that some will think this is a taboo subject but I think it is valid.

IMO, I think that cross training or cross referencing is a good thing. Now, I'm not saying that one has to drop their base art and take up BJJ, FMA, etc., but I do think that it would be good to get a feel for how these people work their material. Keeping our training alive and real, is always going to benefit the person doing it.

We may never find ourselves facing an expert grappler, FMA master, etc., but I feel that the more tools that we have in our toolbox, the better off we'll be. Better to have it and not need it than to not have it and really need it.

Mike

 

[kenpohack]

The sprawl is already there in several places. and several variations such as double underhook, double overhook, over-and-under, the whizzer, etc.

I've never seen a true wrestling sprawl in kenpo. You could make the argument that the motion of a forward fall if applied to a takedown would be a sprawl. That's about the only application of a true spawl that I can see in Kenpo.

 

[evenflow1121]

I ve never seen the sprawl in Kenpo either, unless it has been a school that has incorporated Shoot Boxing, or a grappling art.

 

[Kalicombat]

I have seen different threads that were like this however what I am trying to stress here is the method of training.

Techniques lines are ok for a while but we need to break away from that and look for other ways to improve ourselves. Spar, spar spar and when you are tired of that fight! Spar empty handed, spar with a training blade, spar with a stick, spar against several attackers. Lean how to make your kenpo work and become alive with someone being resistant!

What makes you think that this is a new idea??? Some, if not many of us are doing all of these things and more. As far as EPAK missing ground work, so what. Is grappling the end all of violent altercations? No, not in my experiences. If you want to be an Ultimate Fighter, Cage Fighter, etc... then by all means, strap on your board shorts and have at it. EPAK was not designed to be a sporting system. It was designed to be a tool for self protection against violent attacks. From Delayed Sword through all 154 techniques plus extensions, EPAK is ripe with potentially lethal strikes. Not for use in sporting events.

The Gracies, and umpteen other grapplers gaining fame in mixed martial arts events are not thugs in a parking lot, at an ATM, or even a drunken badass in your local watering hole. EPAK is more then adequate to protect its' followers in these situations. In my 40 years, through many many fights, unprovoked attacks, underground fights, vendetta fights, and drunken badass jaunts, Ive yet to face an opponent that WANTS to go to the ground. Some have ended up there, but not the 90% that grappling proponents tout as gospel.

The whole big confusion in this topic is the differentiation between fighting and self defense. Two people agreeing to fight is more likely to end up in a grappling situation, especially if either party has grappling experience. Surprise attacks are less likely to end up in a grappling situation because of many variables, far too many to get into in this post, but, time restraints, intent, adrenaline, etc. are just the tip of the iceberg. No generalizations exist when speaking of violent attacks, a few however do when speaking of fights.

As far as defense against blades and sticks, EPAK deals with these...and not just in the techniques, but in the principles. Now the age old debate shall ensue as to whether the techniques are the end all of self protection, to which, my answer is no. But, now we have the gaseous expansion, rearrangement, variable expansion, what if, formulation, prefixing, suffixing, sets, forms, and oh yeah, the techniques themselves, as reference points in defending against a blade or a club, or any other instrument that can be likened to the aforementioned. Also, Chuck Taylor has an innovative tool to use in these instances, simply turn and leave, quickly.....I know, I know, not always an option, but, the best one when available, and not only against a weapon, but against any violent altercation.

So, there you have it, my rant for the evening. Just got done watching Ultimate Knockouts.....pretty canny the way those MMA'ers are still able to KTFO of an opponent while standing....

Yours in the SELF PRESERVATION art of EPAK,
Gary Catherman

 

[Doc]

The sprawl is already there in several places.

Mr. Parker specifically rejected anything that approaches close to being the "sprawl."

 

[Kenpodoc]

Mr. Parker specifically rejected anything that approaches close to being the "sprawl."

Interesting. I assume that this was because a sprawl makes you more vulnerable to attack from secondary attackers, but assumptions often get me in trouble.

Jeff