Iraqi Prisoners Abused, Humiliated, Tortured.

[PeachMonkey]

As for being evil and illegal, I think the first is based on your morals (which are good for you, but shouldnt be imposed on anyone else)

Your sense of situational ethics has already been addressed far more effectively than I ever could.

and the second, well, my first rant was related to the fact I don't believe in international law. It preempts soverignity. I say, us first, them second. (I know that's short, but we'll get way off track if I go into it more)

International laws apply to the United States primarily when we ratify them. Torture is outlawed by the Geneva Conventions, which the United States ratified in 1955 (along with additional articles ratified later). It is also outlawed by the International Covenant on on Civil and Political Rights and the Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, both of which the United States ratified. "Ratified" means "The United States signed these treaties *and they apply to the United States*". That's not some random international body making us do things; we *chose* do to them.

But, let's ignore silly details like that for now. Torture is *also* outlawed by US Law, including Fifth, Eighth, and Fourteenth Amendements to the US Constitution, the Uniform Code of Military Justice, the War Crimes Act of 1996, and an additional Federal anti-torture statute (18 USC 2340A).

As for sadism and sickness, well that may be the past, but maybe it's time we use it more intelligently and effectively.

Torture is inherently sadistic no matter how "intelligently" it's used. Others have provided links discussing this.

Again, this isn't 2 wrongs make a right, its saying they already do it and will not stop. There's nothing to lead to. It's already being done.

You are right that there are groups that torture our civilians regardless of our attitude to torture. It is *also* true that torturing others will enrage people that otherwise might not be moved to act.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Peachmonkey,

In the artillery they have a command, called "fire for effect". It brings all guns to bear on the target and fires an allotted number of rounds in barrage.

Nice "fire for effect." That was an overwhelming presentation of the facts.

And thanks for the data. Good research. I'm saving your info for future use elsewhere.


Regards,


Steve

 

[rmcrobertson]

Speaking of which, let me suggest in the strongest possible terms that anyone who cares about these issues take a gander at the website for, "The Avalon Project at Yale Law School," which contains--among other things--the words of Robert L. Jackson and Telford Taylor upon the criminality of waging aggressive war, and the immorality of Government-sponsored torture and murder.

Before anybody starts, I am not saying that we are the same as the nazis. I am saying that anyone who thinks and feels ought to cringe at these closing paragraphs from Robert L. Jackson's letter of resignation as Chief Prosecutor:

"6. It has been well said that this trial is the world's first post mortem examination of a totalitarian regime. In this trial, the Nazis themselves with Machiavellian shamelessness exposed their methods of subverting people's liberties and establishing their dictatorship. The record is a merciless expose of the cruel and sordid methods by which a militant minority seized power, suppressed opposition, set up secret political police and concentration camps. They resorted to legal devices such as "protective custody," which Goering frankly said meant the arrest of people not because they had committed any crime but because of acts it was suspected they might commit if left at liberty. They destroyed all judicial remedies for the citizen and all protections against terrorism. The record discloses the early symptoms of dictatorship and shows that it is only in its incipient stages that it can be brought under control. And the testimony records the German example that the destruction of opposition produces eventual deterioration in the government that does it. By progressive intolerance a dictatorship by its very nature becomes so arbitrary that it cannot tolerate opposition, even when it consists merely of the correction of misinformation or the communication to its highest officers of unwelcome intelligence. It was really the recoil of the Nazi blows at liberty that destroyed the Nazi regime. They struck down freedom of speech and press and other freedoms which pass as ordinary civil rights with us, so thoroughly that not even its highest officers dared to warn the people or the Fuehrer that they were taking the road to destruction. The Nurnberg trial has put that handwriting on the wall for the oppressor as well as the oppressed to read.

Of course, it would be extravagant to claim that agreements or trials of this character can make aggressive war or persecution of minorities impossible, just as it would be extravagant to claim that our federal laws make federal crime impossible. But we cannot doubt that they strengthen the bulwarks of peace and tolerance. The four nations through their prosecutors and through their representatives on the Tribunal, have enunciated standards of conduct which bring new hope to men of good will and from which future statesmen will not lightly depart. These standards by which the Germans have been condemned will become the condemnation of any nation that is faithless to them.

By the Agreement and this trial we have put International Law squarely on the side of peace as against aggressive warfare, and on the side of humanity as against persecution. In the present depressing world outlook it is possible that the Nurnberg trial may constitute the most important moral advance to grow out of this war. The trial and decision by which the four nations have forfeited the lives of some of the most powerful political and military leaders of Germany because they have violated fundamental International Law, does more than anything in our time to give to International Law what Woodrow Wilson described as "the kind of vitality it can only have if it is a real expression of our moral judgment."

I hereby resign my commission as your representative and Chief of Counsel for the United States. In its execution I have had the help of many able men and women, too many to mention individually, who have made personal sacrifice to carry on a work in which they earnestly believed. I also want to express deep personal appreciation for this opportunity to do what I believe to be a constructive work for the peace of the world and for the better protection of persecuted peoples. It was, perhaps, the greatest opportunity ever presented to an American lawyer. In pursuit of it many mistakes have been made and many inadequacies must be confessed. I am consoled by the fact that in proceedings of this novelty, errors and missteps may also be instructive to the future.

Respectfully submitted,

ROBERT H. JACKSON

I apologize in advance to some of the good people on this thread who simply have different ideas. I understand, moreover, that you may be in the position I was in, circa 1968--the unpleasant position of seeing, for the first time, what some of the patriotic myths concealed in this country. Nonetheless, I want to say something clearly--go out on a limb--make an extremist lefty statement---torture, whatever the high-minded theory and excuses one offers, is wrong.

And shame on anyone who will not see this. You are betraying the best principles, the best people, of your country.

 

[michaeledward]

Look up there .... ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

What he said! Yeah!

 

[hardheadjarhead]

...in the position I was in, circa 1968--the unpleasant position of seeing, for the first time, what some of the patriotic myths concealed in this country. Nonetheless, I want to say something clearly--go out on a limb--make an extremist lefty statement---torture, whatever the high-minded theory and excuses one offers, is wrong.

And shame on anyone who will not see this. You are betraying the best principles, the best people, of your country.

You make an interesting observation here. In 1968 I believed very strongly in those patriotic myths and didn't believe it possible that our nation could violate the image they engendered. Time an education cured that, and it was a painful experience.

Those myths ought not be believed, but they might yet have utility. Reagan's "Shining City on a Hill" is not something we are, rather something we should aspire to. We are the most powerful nation on the planet, but to be the "greatest" we have to live up to the ideals that our patriotic myths profess. We've done that at times. Many times we've failed. To ignore our failings because we simply can not stand the psychological friction that such introspection brings is a mark of immaturity.

So our patriotic myths can be the dreams and aspirations of the nation. Like any dream, though, we need to keep in mind that it is not likely reality. Our myths might be a wonderful articulation of where we would like to be, but we must open our eyes to ascertain first where we are.


Regards,


Steve

 

[Flatlander]

From today's Globe and Mail,

New York — At least 11 al-Qaeda suspects have “disappeared” in U.S. custody, and some may have been tortured, Human Rights Watch said in a report issued Monday.

The prisoners are probably being held outside the United States without access to the Red Cross or any oversight of their treatment, the human rights group said. In some cases, the United States will not even acknowledge the prisoners are in custody.

The report said the prisoners include the alleged architect of the Sept. 11 attacks, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, as well as Abu Zubaydah, who is believed to be a close aide to Osama bin Laden.

In refusing to disclose the prisoners' whereabouts or acknowledge the detentions, Human Rights Watch said, the U.S. government has violated international law, international treaties and the Geneva Convention. The group called on the government to bring all the prisoners “under the protection of the law.”

The Human Rights Watch report referenced in the article can be found here.

 

[rmcrobertson]

CNN also now says that the CIA is holding a group of, "suspects," in Jordan, where they're being tortured. Lovely.

It's crap like this that makes me just so proud to be an American....oh wait, I forgot, this is actually shameful.

 

[Fool Wolf]

I just found this letter written by a retired USMC General, Chuck Pitman. I think that it puts some prospective on the topic at hand from the point of view of a true combat tested warrior. I believe this is the viewpoint of many of us who serve in the military. I apologize if this has been posted somewhere else.

FW

Subject: FW: Letter of Apology from Chuck Pitman

Letter of Apology

This Letter of Apology was written by Lieutenant General Chuck Pitman, US Marine Corps, Retired

"For good and ill, the Iraqi prisoner abuse mess will remain an issue.

On the one hand, right thinking Americans will harbor the stupidity of the

actions while on the other hand, political glee will take control and

fashion this minor event into some modern day massacre.

I humbly offer my opinion here:

I am sorry that the last seven times we Americans took up arms and

sacrificed the blood of our youth, it was in the defense of Muslims

(Bosnia, Kosovo, Gulf War 1, Kuwait, etc.).

I am sorry that no such call for an apology upon the extremists came

after 9/11.

I am sorry that all of the murderers on 9/11 were Islamic Arabs.

I am sorry that most Arabs and Muslims have to live in squalor under

savage dictatorships.

I am sorry that their leaders squander their wealth.

I am sorry that their governments breed hate for the US in their

religious schools, mosques, and government-controlled media.

I am sorry that Yasir Arafat was kicked out of every Arab country and

high-jacked the Palestinian "cause."

I am sorry that no other Arab country will take in or offer more than a

token amount of financial help to those same Palestinians.

I am sorry that the USA has to step in and be the biggest financial

supporter of poverty stricken Arabs while the insanely wealthy Arabs blame the USA for all their problems.

I am sorry that our own left wing, our media, and our own brainwashed

masses do not understand any of this (from the misleading vocal elements

of our society like radical professors, CNN and the NY TIMES).

I am sorry the United Nations scammed the poor people of Iraq out of the

"food for oil" money so they could get rich while the common folk

suffered.

I am sorry that some Arab governments pay the families of homicide

bombers upon their death.

I am sorry that those same bombers are brainwashed thinking they will

receive 72 virgins in "paradise."

I am sorry that the homicide bombers think pregnant women, babies,

children, the elderly and other noncombatant civilians are legitimate

targets.

I am sorry that our troops die to free more Arabs from the gang rape

rooms and the filling of mass graves of dissidents of their own making.

I am sorry that Muslim extremists have killed more Arabs than any other

group.

I am sorry that foreign trained terrorists are trying to seize control of

Iraq and return it to a terrorist state.

I am sorry we don't drop a few dozen Daisy cutters on Fallujah.

I am sorry every time terrorists hide they find a convenient "Holy Site."

I am sorry they didn't apologize for driving a jet into the World Trade

Center that collapsed and severely damaged Saint Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church - one of our Holy Sites.

I am sorry they didn't apologize for flight 93 and 175, the USS Cole, the

embassy bombings, the murders and beheadings of Nick Berg and Daniel

Pearl, etc....etc!

I am sorry Michael Moore is American; he could feed a medium sized

village in Africa.

America will get past this latest absurdity. We will punish those

responsible because that is what we do.

We hang out our dirty laundry for the entire world to see. We move on.

That's one of the reasons we are hated so much. We don't hide this stuff

like all those Arab countries that are now demanding an apology.

Deep down inside, when most Americans saw this reported in the news, We were like - so what? We lost hundreds and made fun of a few prisoners.

Sure, it was wrong, sure, it dramatically hurts our cause, but until captured we

were trying to kill these same prisoners. Now we're supposed to wring our

hands because a few were humiliated?

Our compassion is tempered with the vivid memories of our own people

killed, mutilated and burnt amongst a joyous crowd of celebrating

Fallujahans.

If you want an apology from this American, you're going to have a long

wait!



You have a better chance of finding those seventy-two virgins.



Chuck Pitman

Lieutenant General

US Marine Corps (Retired)

 

[heretic888]

Ah, delightful.

The non-apologizing apology with obtuse references to the 'liberal media', 'radical professors', the 'corrupted' United Nations, veiled justifications for torture based on September 11, rampant racism, and the perpetual ethnocentric understanding of "Islam".

With, of course, the underlying message being that those American soldiers that engaged in torture didn't do anything wrong because the tortured "had it comin'". Let's just ignore its a violation of international law, not to mention plain-old illegal.

Guys like this make me sick.

 

[michaeledward]

I just found this letter written by a retired USMC General, Chuck Pitman. I think that it puts some prospective on the topic at hand from the point of view of a true combat tested warrior. I believe this is the viewpoint of many of us who serve in the military. I apologize if this has been posted somewhere else.

This letter does not put any perspective on the topic at hand. It is a rant about something that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

The topic at hand is that Iraqi citizens were detained without charge, abused, humiliated and tortured. The laundry list the retired general has nothing to do with the behavior of the United States military personnel that subjected these detainees to behavior that is inconsistant with United States law, the Geneva Conventions and common decency.

It is an attempt to 'dehumanize' the 'enemy', so that the good soldiers can sleep at night. If they thought they were treating someone's husband, son, or father, according to what has been discussed, well, we would probably see a high incidence of 'Shell Shock' or 'Post Traumatic Stress Disorder' in returning soldiers ... oh, wait ... well, we are, aren't we?

I especially liked the report that the United States dropped a JDAM on a resturant in Fallujah because we believed al Zaqarwi meets there.

When did a JDAM become a tool of assassination?

Of course, like every other time in this engagment, our precision weapons hit exactly where we aimed, but we were aiming in the wrong place.

So, yeah ... Let us continue to dehumanize all the Muslim people, so when a couple of waiters buy the farm at the end of a JDAM we can sleep at night.

Civilians reported killed by military intervention in Iraq.
Minimum 13224 - Maximum 15292

Sleep well.

 

[Fool Wolf]

I think it was relevant in expressing the idea that the prisoner abuse that occurred in Iraq was a crime, and will be punished, much worse happened at Abu Ghraib before we stepped in. Many of the people that are quick to disparage the US never said a word about the atrocities being committed before we were there. No Iraqi torturers were ever prosecuted and the so-called human rights groups never made near the noise as they do when the US makes mistakes. Things have to be put in perspective.

FW

 

[heretic888]

I think it was relevant in expressing the idea that the prisoner abuse that occurred in Iraq was a crime, and will be punished, much worse happened at Abu Ghraib before we stepped in. Many of the people that are quick to disparage the US never said a word about the atrocities being committed before we were there. No Iraqi torturers were ever prosecuted and the so-called human rights groups never made near the noise as they do when the US makes mistakes. Things have to be put in perspective.

Ah. More "outraged at the outrage" arguments.

Its really not that hard of a concept: we're supposed to be the good guys. We're not supposed to torture, because its wrong.

No circular arguments, artificial justificiations, or Freudian projections will change that.

I mean, your argument is based on the fact that since torture occured during a brutal dictatorship, that its "not so bad" when we do it, too?? Whu?? :idunno:

 

[michaeledward]

I think it was relevant in expressing the idea that the prisoner abuse that occurred in Iraq was a crime, and will be punished, much worse happened at Abu Ghraib before we stepped in. Many of the people that are quick to disparage the US never said a word about the atrocities being committed before we were there. No Iraqi torturers were ever prosecuted and the so-called human rights groups never made near the noise as they do when the US makes mistakes. Things have to be put in perspective.

FW

Yes, the correct perspective things should be put in; is that the internal affairs of a sovereign nation are none of our business. The United States Courts are not responsible for bringing charges against Iraqi citizens or institutions. To discuss what happens in other countries has absolutely nothing to do with the behavior the United States Soldiers, acting under United States Authority.

It was not 'so-called human rights groups' that were detaining Iraqi citizens after the United States invaded their country. It was not 'so-called human rights groups' that set attack dogs on bound prisoners. It was not 'so-called human rights groups' that sexually abused and humiliated Iraqi citizens, detained illegally and without charge. It was not 'so-called human rights groups' that have 'disappeared' detainees into unknown locations (or some known locations, like Jordan where torture is occurring at the US behest) away from any review at all; Human Rights indeed.

The more talk there is about others' behavoir, the more the lens is focused on our own behavior. And what we see is repulsive. To try and justify it is embarrassing and degrading.

Don't you, or your retired Marine friend, try and tell me that what went on there is OK, because somebody else does worse. Look in the mirror. We have become that which we despise.

 

[PeachMonkey]

the so-called human rights groups never made near the noise as they do when the US makes mistakes.

Is this based on an actual analysis of the complaints made by human rights groups about abuses by the Iraqi government under Saddam Hussein vs. complaints made by the US occupying forces? If so, I'd really like to see your sources and data.

 

[Flatlander]

Is this based on an actual analysis of the complaints made by human rights groups about abuses by the Iraqi government under Saddam Hussein vs. complaints made by the US occupying forces? If so, I'd really like to see your sources and data.

If a tree falls in the forest.......

 

[GAB]

If a tree falls in the forest.......

Not if you are under it....G

 

[Tkang_TKD]

I just found this letter written by a retired USMC General, Chuck Pitman. I think that it puts some prospective on the topic at hand from the point of view of a true combat tested warrior. I believe this is the viewpoint of many of us who serve in the military. I apologize if this has been posted somewhere else.

FW

Subject: FW: Letter of Apology from Chuck Pitman

Letter of Apology
<snipped...content irrelavent to my reply>

Firstly, I doubt that this is a view held by "Many of us who serve in the military", I being one of them, and in charge of a good number more.

Secondly, LtGen Charles H. Pitman did not draft this apology letter. It first appeared in at Townhall.com, penned by Mike Adams.

I decided to quote a right-wing source, just to show my flexibility a bit. Here you go: a conservative web form with the complete text of the original work.

http://www.rightnation.us/forums/index.php?showtopic=53361

 

[Fool Wolf]

Mr. MichaelEdward

I respect your views, however I believe your perspective is off. The Iraqi prisoner abuse was perpetrated by a small number of soldiers who were out of control. They worked the night shift in an isolated wing of Abu Ghraib. They lacked proper supervision from their leaders, both NCOs and Officers. Soldiers who lack proper discipline and supervision will run amok, this is a universal truth about human nature and warfare. There was a 15-6 commander's investigation initiated before the press even got the story. In no way were the soldiers abusing the prisoners working in an official capacity to "soften them up" or illicit information. They were acting out of sadistic pleasure and boredom. They were criminals and not representing the US military. To say that "we have become what we despise" is disingenuous.

vr
FW

 

[michaeledward]

The Iraqi prisoner abuse was perpetrated by a small number of soldiers who were out of control. They worked the night shift in an isolated wing of Abu Ghraib. They lacked proper supervision from their leaders, both NCOs and Officers. Soldiers who lack proper discipline and supervision will run amok, this is a universal truth about human nature and warfare. There was a 15-6 commander's investigation initiated before the press even got the story. In no way were the soldiers abusing the prisoners working in an official capacity to "soften them up" or illicit information. They were acting out of sadistic pleasure and boredom. They were criminals and not representing the US military.

I think you are grossly unaware of what 'Abu Ghraib' consisted of, if you think that only the late shift of the 372nd Military Police was involved, you have not examined the evidence available.

General Taguba reported activities of wrongdoing which included

"Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees; puring cold water on naded detainees; beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair; threatening male detainees with rape; allowing a military police guiard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in he cell; sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick, and using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instacne actually biting a detainee"

General Miller was sent from Guantanamo to Iraq for the purpose of acquiring more actionable intelligence from detainees. Using techniques developed and implemented by the CIA's Special Access Programs (or SAP), to extract information from al Qaeda detainees in Guantanamo was a completely inappropriate choice for trying to get information from Iraqi citizens. But the General visited Iraq in August 2003 to meet with General Sanchez about how to better get 'actionable intelligence'. (Of course the SAP information extraction methods in Guantanam, Cuba are also of skeptical legitimacy).

Even General Karpinski (the commander in charge of Abu Ghraib) who was working the prisons under her command. In addition to the uniformed soldiers, there were plain clothed people in the prisons. She reports,

"I thought most of the civilians there were interpreters, but there were some civilians that I didn't know. I called them the disappearing ghosts. I'd seen them once in a while at Abu Ghraib and then I'd see the months later .... always bringing in somebody for interrogation or waiting to collect somebody going out."

Some of these 'sterlie' people were military intelligence personnel.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Please. Bush admin guys and assorted conservatives started their, "debate," over when it was OK to torture prisoners AT LEAST two years ago, and we've been shipping prisoners to countries where we know they'll be tortured, as well as holding people incommunicado and torturing them ourselves, all over the world.

It is naive in the extreme to claim that this was a few bad apples. It was, and apparently still is, deliberate policy.