Iraqi Civilian Deaths... *** Mature Content and Language at some Links in Thread

[Makalakumu]

This goes way beyond anything I've read in the US media thus far...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5587990522549547050&pr=goog-sl


Excerpts:

"When we were doing the night raids in the houses, we would pull people out and have them all on their knees and zip-tied. We would ask the man of the house questions. If he didn't answer the way we liked, we would shoot his youngest kid in the head. We would keep going, this was our interrogation. He could be innocent. He could be just an average Joe trying to support his family. If he didn't give us a satisfactory answer, we'd start killing off his family until he told us something. If he didn't know anything, I guess he was SOL."

Here is more...

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/files/i_killed_innocents__us_marine_iraq_war_veteran_188.mp3

Is this for real?

 

[mrhnau]

This goes way beyond anything I've read in the US media thus far...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5587990522549547050&pr=goog-sl


Excerpts:


Here is more...

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/files/i_killed_innocents__us_marine_iraq_war_veteran_188.mp3

Is this for real?

Interesting.Was unable to get the video, but was able to listen to the mp3. first, a couple of things to do before the jumping around begins:
1) verify this guy was in the marines
2) verify this guy was in Iraq, doing exactly what he said
3) verify the deaths did occur via media in the area, possibly army reports, obituaries, etc...

as far as "killing civilians", I don't like it, however in war it is inevitable. There are always going to be casualties, but you hope to minimize the innocents. Considering the type of war being forced on us, with combatants hiding, sniping, planting roadside bombs and doing -anything- aside from wearing a uniform, its difficult to tell who is who. I've long said that if the guerillas were to calm down for a while, we would get ourselves out of there rather swiftly. Prove you can behave rationally and take care of your own country and we will get out of your way. I'm not sure if thats the message they get over there... however, the recent news that we will be reducing troop numbers is encouraging.

While people will jump on the "killing of civilians" topic, I'll say this... I think the troops have been doing the best they can, given the circumstances and tactics currently being employeed by the enemy. I regret the loss of any innocents, but thats a bad aspect of war...

now, I did not see the Google video (computer problem on) but I highly doubt the story you quoted first. I'd want some serious verification for that one. -IF- this were true, I'd like to know the frequency, motivation for the action (was intellegence produced against them?), was it sanctioned or an isolated incedent that has been halted/punished through legal action.

Part of the problem is you can say anything on the internet. I always consider the source. I don't know the web site you sited, so can't say much in that regards... anyone familiar with it?

 

[Blotan Hunka]

I was going to comment on a few things, but some other people have beat me to the punch. I dont trust this guys credibility.

http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=142471

I hope all of you read what I have to say about this. First, I speak to you, of Ogrish, as a combat veteran myself. I spent 6 years in the army as an Airborne Ranger stationed with an Infantry bgd at the 82nd, and with the 101st LRS Detatchment. This is the most disgusting piece of propaganda footage I have yet to see about the war in Iraq. While there *ARE* instances of deliberate abuse, killing and even torture of Iraqi non combatants, this particular interview is completely staged. Here are my conclusions... First of all, in the beginning of the picture, the patch the supposed "Ranger" is wearing can be clearly seen on the right shoulder. A US Army soldiers right arm indicates a combat patch. You dont get one unless you've spent 6 months in a designated combat area. That's fine, except, he is wearing a Special Forces "Group" patch. I only know one ranger Unit that is authorized to wear that patch and they were deployed to Afganistan with 5th group. Also, he has two "tabs" sewn above the right arm patch. This is incorrect. An "Airborne" tab should be sewn above it, but nothing else. I assume the second patch is either the "Special Forces" tab, or his supposed "Ranger" tab. Bull ****. It doesn't go there. Also, notice his rank... Two stripes, Corporal (E-4). Thiese are pinned on. Most Units standards will state that rank is to be SEWN ON. Not pinned. Certainly, a ranger unit would uphold this standard. That's WRONG. Next, take a look at his military photo. The wall photo is similar to the ones you will find of any soldier who goes to the E-5 board for promotion. It is required that they have a "Soldier's Photo" taken for their packet. The standard is either BDU's, or Class-A's. He is shown wearing BDU's. His "Ranger" tab should be sewn above his unit patch. It's not there... Next, notice that above his name tag, there is NOTHING sewn on the uniform. Almost 99.9% of Rangers are airborne qualified. It's par for the course. I've NEVER met a L.E.G. (Low Energy Ground) Ranger. This is usually completed before attending ranger school- except for very rare circumstances. Any airborne soldier would proudly display their Jump Wings. Where are they??? Next, no god damned Unit Crest is placed in the center of the patch in his berrett. Finally, his sleeves are rolled up. For most infantry units, this is not allowed. Support units (and some combat units) will roll up their sleeves in warm weather while in garrison- However, Infantry soldiers are usually not permitted to do so because it is NON-TACTICAL for their job duty. "We train like we fight- And we dont ever fight with our sleeves up." Also, they are rolled improperly. The US Marines roll their sleeve like the liars piture. The US Army rolls up their sleeves but then folds the cuff area over the lighter portion of the sleeve to keep the uniform's camof**e pattern continuous. That's wrong. Here's an abbreviated list of discrepencies...

1. Special Forces Combat Patch (Wrong) 2. Two "Tabs" sewn above SF patch (Wrong- Only One) 3. No Ranger Tab 4. No Airborne Wings 5. No Unit Crest 6. No Sewn on Rank 7. No One in the Army rolls their sleeves like that. Bonus: 8. Mustache is out of regulation by extending past the corner of the mouth.

You don't take a picture like that- with your uniform looking like you got it from some steven segal movie set. Its disrespectful, and an Army ranger would be upholding those standards.

I don't care what the jerk says... He is completely uncredible.

 

[CMS]

Fake. He claims to be an Army Ranger, (not a Marine) but doesn't know how to wear the beret correctly. He also claims to have been involved in an action in Faluga that involved Marines, not Rangers and occurred a day after he was at home protesting. The Army claims he has no service record. More information can be found at http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=20694_Progressives_Supporting_the_Troops_Again&only

 

[mrhnau]

I was going to comment on a few things, but some other people have beat me to the punch. I dont trust this guys credibility.

http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=142471

Interesting... if this were true, I would have imagined the media in the US would have jumped all over this. Make that guy a superstar, book deal and everything...

makes sense...

 

[Blotan Hunka]

***** Warning Graphic Language and Content at linked Site - Rich Parsons - Assistant Administrator *****

http://www.armyranger.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=23398

Rangers dont believe him.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Anybody with some Army experience just has to take one look at that picture and think something is wrong with this guys story.

http://www.michellemalkin.com/

Today, the Army ran a check on Mr. MacBeth’s credentials. It turns out, not surprisingly to anybody with half a mind, that Mr. MacBeth has NO Army service record. Anywhere. Period. This is a direct quote given to me by Army spokesman John Boyce:

“Initial research by the U.S. Army Special Operations Command at Fort Bragg shows no Soldier with the name of Jesse Macbeth having ever been assigned to the Special Forces or the Army Rangers -- which are, in fact, two separate disciplines. This appears to be some sort of hoax. No Soldier by that name at Fort Lewis to our knowledge, in the past, either. Of course, the line about "go into the Army or go to jail" is vintage TV script not heard since the 1960s. There are also numerous wear and appearance issues with the Soldier's uniform -- a mix of foreign uniforms with the sleeves rolled up like a Marine and a badly floppy tan beret worn like a pastry chef. Of course, the allegations of war crimes are vague, as are the awards the Soldier allegedly received.”

Just goes to show that thw anti's are as full of liars and frauds as the pro's IMO.

 

[crushing]

Fake. He claims to be an Army Ranger, (not a Marine) but doesn't know how to wear the beret correctly. He also claims to have been involved in an action in Faluga that involved Marines, not Rangers and occurred a day after he was at home protesting. The Army claims he has no service record. More information can be found at http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=20694_Progressives_Supporting_the_Troops_Again&only

A 'Neo-Winter Soldier' perhaps?

Liars and frauds impacted what people thought of the soldiers returning from Vietnam, will they do similar to these soldiers?

 

[mantis]

This goes way beyond anything I've read in the US media thus far...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5587990522549547050&pr=goog-sl


Excerpts:


Here is more...

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/files/i_killed_innocents__us_marine_iraq_war_veteran_188.mp3

Is this for real?

"I hate the army. It is someone you dont know tells you to whack someone else you dont know" (al pacino in Donnie Brasco)

 

[Makalakumu]

There is so much propaganda flying around, its hard to know what to think. The only site that I think is somewhat credible on this is...

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

At least its "independently" verified. Anyway, I can't believe that our guys are committing what sounds to me like a "My Lei" on a regular basis...

 

[mantis]

There is so much propaganda flying around, its hard to know what to think. The only site that I think is somewhat credible on this is...

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

At least its "independently" verified. Anyway, I can't believe that our guys are committing what sounds to me like a "My Lei" on a regular basis...

My Lei.. You did beat me to it
I did not want to say that because i did not want to get anyone mad.

anyway, the best is to track multiple sources of information all the time, but even then you will not be able to know the entire story.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

This day and age of immediate media, stuff like that wont last for long. Do you think AbuGraib (sp?) would ever have even been a blip on the radar a war or two ago? Look at what happened to that Marine who was filmed shooting that wounded Iraqi a while ago. He knew he was being filmed so he obviously didnt think he was doing anything wrong and he wasnt doing anything wrong IMO. People are just seeing what war is really like now. Should our guys be intentionally killing non-combatants? Of course not. Should they be fighting a war with use of force rules like Cops have? I dont think that either.

 

[CanuckMA]

Watched only the first 3 minutes. The guy can't string a decent sentence together, seems very confused and then there is that stutter. Stuttering is usually a sign of lack of confidence. You'd expect a Ranger to exude confidence. And a modicum of intelligence. What a crock.

 

[michaeledward]

There is this ...

http://www.time.com/time/world/printout/0,8816,1174649,00.html

sorry to pile on.

In January, after Time presented military officials in Baghdad with the Iraqis' accounts of the Marines' actions, the U.S. opened its own investigation, interviewing 28 people, including the Marines, the families of the victims and local doctors. According to military officials, the inquiry acknowledged that, contrary to the military's initial report, the 15 civilians killed on Nov. 19 died at the hands of the Marines, not the insurgents.

...

According to the military officials, the series of raids took five hours and left at least 23 people dead. In all, two AK-47s were discovered. The military has classified the 15 victims in the first two houses as noncombatants. It considers the four men killed in the fourth house, as well as four youths killed by the Marines near the site of the roadside bombing, as enemy fighters. The question facing naval detectives is whether the Marines' killing of 15 noncombatants was an act of legitimate self-defense or negligent homicide.

 

[Don Roley]

Anybody with some Army experience just has to take one look at that picture and think something is wrong with this guys story.

http://www.michellemalkin.com/



Just goes to show that thw anti's are as full of liars and frauds as the pro's IMO.

My god, there is a lot of effort going into trying to make this military and goverment look bad by means of deception and half truths.

 

[ginshun]

Watched only the first 3 minutes. The guy can't string a decent sentence together, seems very confused and then there is that stutter. Stuttering is usually a sign of lack of confidence. You'd expect a Ranger to exude confidence. And a modicum of intelligence. What a crock.

I was thinking the exact same thing. One of the guys I train with is a former ranger, and from what I know of him and what he has said about the Rangers, the skinny little studdering fool in that video sure as hell doesn't fit the profile.

 

[HKphooey]

How about the 2400+ coalition deaths?

 

[michaeledward]

How about the 2400+ coalition deaths?

What, exactly are you asking about them?

And, they are monitored and tracked and grieved for and remembered on this board, by yours truly ... see the thread, '2000 and counting'.

 

[Rich Parsons]

There is this ...

http://www.time.com/time/world/printout/0,8816,1174649,00.html

sorry to pile on.

Sad new to hear about this.

Yet I think the evidence of him not being in the Military is pretty clear.

If you read the complete thread at armyrangers then you can find other nice links including some of the following:

This is a post from his Supposed Half Brother, not verified: http://www.armyranger.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=23398&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45

One reference to his Criminal Record: http://www.co.pierce.wa.us/cfapps/linx/calendar/GetCriminalCase.cfm?cause_num=06-1-01994-8

A reference to his Credit Card Fruad which does not mean he could not still be a Ranger, but the times involved do make it real hard for him to be in two locations at once. Also a real Ranger shows what is wrong with his picture : http://www.sweetness-light.com/archive/james-macbeths-damned-spots-credit-card-fraud


A reference to a name change - which is possible if the above post from his half-brohter is true about being adopted or in foster care: http://www.sweetness-light.com/archive/jesse-adam-macbeth-was-born-jesse-adam-al-zaid/

Another site for the Name Change: http://www.cosc.co.pima.az.us/record_search/casesearch.asp?casenum=C234837

A UK site that with links I have not had time to check you: http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=38847.html


I have no doubt that accidents happen and people get killed who are not combatives. My issue is with the amount of information that has this guy being in court as an adult here in the states and also Over seas at the same time.

Add in that he does not have the right "Dress" and uses incorrect designations for a "Real" ranger makes me wonder.

Yet what gets me with the whole 20+ minutes of dribble is that he only stutters when he talks about being overseas, but does not when talking about other things. Maybe this is nervousness, maybe it is becuase he is a liar.



PS: Forgot a link that has a description of what he put into a database: http://www.thegreatsatan.com/archives/000591.html

 

[Blotan Hunka]

What he said.