interpretation of "soft/internal" arts

[yilisifu]

In authentic Taiji (or Bagua or Xingyi) the real movement begins on the inside (of the body), where it is impossible to observe. This is one of the major differences between the so-called "internal" methods and the "external."
The external uses more outward movements with larger actions. Internal systems rely on very subtle internal "movements" which are trained through a variety of special exercises (not just their forms).
That's why I said that a punch in Taiji will appear to be identical to a punch done in most other systems - on the surface. But internally, it's quite different. A flaky teacher won't know anything about it (the real method of moving internally first) and will just "go through the motions" of punching in the manner of most other martial arts methods.

 

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by sweeper
I have seen alot of people practice so called internal arts in a realy soft fasion, not realy practicing with an agressive resisting opponant or implamenting the method of deffence/offence in a aggressive fasion. Genneraly I assume this is how they learn it, when you can find a thai chi/yoga center on every other street corner it seems that most of the schools are attempting to cater to a crowd looking more for an aerobic workout than self deffence (yet the practioners seem to thinkn of it as self deffence).

The question that comes to mind is, do you think it would be posable to practice at one of these schools and than practice implamenting the techniques in a diffrent flavor, a more aggressive flavor that you may have learned somewhere else?

When I met the late Hung Yi Shang , former head of the Chinese MA Association, in Tapei I discussed several things with him.
One of the things was the “hard/soft” misconception.
This is one thing about Chinese arts that never fails to confuse people, and rightly so since it is not an easy topic.

According to Mr. Hung soft never means weak or light or any other sort of non-strength type adjective, quite the opposite in fact if you were ever to receive a demonstration from him. Soft meant he put you in a great deal of agony quite easily and there wasn’t a damn thing you could do about it.

I find few people in the west that can really grasp what “soft” is. I did notice Yiliquan1 doing forms from Yili and he had the right kind of “soft” when doing them…….I believe it was a “Wood” form or “Heaven” form……..sorry I don’t recall what the name was.
Either way, it was nice. Perhaps he can show it to me again on his next trip.

 

[sweeper]

so basicly tai chi uses diffrent mechanics that aren't redaly visable, and as such if someone has practticed the observable motion a bunch it doesn't mean they are practicing the motion correctly.

so basicly no to my question.

 

[KennethKu]

Question: Why is it that we have yet to witness "internal"/"soft" martial arts being applied successfully in competition arena such as K1, Pride, UFC, etc? Please do not say that these are not worthy arena for the internal art practitioners. That is nothing more than a cheap excuse.

 

[Jill666]

My understanding from the little I have learned is that there are internal exercises, using flow of energy, relaxation & visualization to direct that energy into the limbs and out to the other person. (I hope that is coherent). All I can say is I have seen a slow, flowing motion with the arms as part of a Tai Chi form. That same motion sent me flying across the room. I wasn't conscious of much impact- until I hit the wall.

It seems to me that it takes time and patience to realize the power in the forms, and to develop the senses to recognize how this energy feels & what to do with it.

Very Jedi.

Tai Chi practitioners- would you agree?

So yeah, basically, no I guess. In that it seems like a disservice to the art and a cheat to yourself to spend any time with something and miss the whole point.

 

[Jill666]

Originally posted by yilisifu
As an old friend of mine said, "There are those who don't have a clue...then there are those who don't even suspect."

Your old friend is brilliant.

 

[chufeng]

The mechanics are different...
The "feel" is different...
The intent is important...

Jill, the TaiJi guy that launched you was being nice...although you absorbed the force he didn't focus it on the inside...if he had, you would have dropped in your tracks instead...think of THAT force hitting you on the inside...

The other day, I was working with Yiliquan1 and a new student.
I was teaching them, and allowing them, to strike to two distinct spots on the arm using what we call Ox-tongue palm. When done correctly, the result is dramatic...the whiplash effect can even cause unconsciousness, so it must be practiced with some measure of control. At any rate, after "showing" Yiliquan1 two or three times, I offered my arms as targets...
When I know I'm going to get struck hard, I fill the area with qi...
Yiliquan1's blows were ineffective, although he actually was right on the mark with his strikes...
When I offered my arms to the new student, I didn't fill them until she had made contact with the passive hand...she could literally feel the arms "change"...she said, "You changed them...they are different..."
This ability comes from qigong training and applying the principles of YiLiQuan (the martial art)...

Root, Center, Extend...
Use the breath and Yi (intent) to direct the flow of qi...

No, someone who imitates TaiJi will not be able to effect the same result.
Unfortunately, many TaiJi teachers today only know the imitation form of the art...

Keep training, because at the upper levels of Karate, the "internal/soft" is there...It's just that you work from the outside in...Use Intent in all of your techniques (this goes beyond "focus")...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[yilisifu]

Yes! That which is hard ultimately becomes soft though it's hardness.....

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by yilisifu
Yes! That which is hard ultimately becomes soft though it's hardness.....

Y'know, out of respect, I'm just not gonna comment on that... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Chufeng's arms literally felt like they had gone from flesh to wood. Striking them was ineffective, and I don't hit like a 4th grader either... I'm not that good of an MAist, but I can hit okay - and it didn't do a damn thing! The same strike, but just a tad lighter, sent another student to the ground. Chufeng, sick bastard that he is, just stood there, sucked it up and grinned...

As for Chufeng's "showing" me, I'm weird like that... After he hits me and I stop writhing around, I get back up and say "doitagain!"

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[yilisifu]

I realized the implications of what I'd said just a second after I'd posted it......I knew some sicko would pick up on it....

 

[RyuShiKan]

“sicko” is right.
Yiliquan1 is one of the few people I know in the MA that you can beat like a red headed stepchild and then ask you to do that again. Sumtin' rong wit dat boy....

 

[Matt Stone]

Well, everybody needs to be something!

I learn better by knowing what is supposed to happen to the bad guy. The only way I learn what is supposed to happen to the bad guy is to get the smack smacked out of me once or twice... or thrice!

Besides, it earns you either a reputation as a loonie, or as a loonie that can take one serious ***-beating! Either way, bonus for me!

Capitol Hill ***** Slap is next! :lol:

Gambarimasu.
:asian: