Interesting post re: the Skoss thing

[kuoshu]

You've already admitted over on MAP you've never trained in a Koryu. Yet you keep making statements like the above.


How many instances do you know of a student being turned away from Koryu training based solely on the fact that he was a member of the Bujinkan.

Well, let's start with me! I was personally turned away from a koryu kenjutsu school in Europe back in 2001 or thereabouts. They were very polite and said they had to ask the headmaster in Japan. They eventually got back to me and told me politely but firmly "No". I didn't have any tattoos, didn't have a criminal record, no drug use, no links to Al-Qaeda, nothing like that. They politely told me my application was declined and I would have to give up Ninjutsu if I wanted to reapply.In addition, I know of quite a senior Shidoshi in England who was turned away from the Toda Ha Buko Ryu. He went to Japan in person to apply, but was still refused. He was also not accepted by the Araki Ryu. It may or may not have been Ellis Amdur's teacher that he asked. I can't say for sure.Then there was a Bujinkan person in the USA I know of. He tried to enter the Yagyu Ryu Kenjutsu under Meik Skoss in the USA. He was told no.I also have heard (but I am willing to be corrected as it is 2nd hand) that Master Otake of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu will not accept students with a X-kan background.Now maybe these are all isolated instances and not representative of the wider koryu teachers. I cannot say for sure.

 

[kuoshu]

You might start looking at the evidence and works of Koyama,

If you want to use the Koyama work mentioning Nishina to prove that Mr Takamatsu was taught by Mr Toda, then I demand you recognise me as the headmaster of the True Mesopotamian Art of Archery. Here's my story:I learned this art from my grandfather in Greece. He taught me and made me his heir when he died. He said that the art started about 4000 years ago in Mesopotamia with a man called Nimrod. It was then passed down in secret, through the Empires until it reached Greece and my great great great grandfather. From there, it was passed down through my family until I learned it.The art was all passed down orally (kuden ) and so there is no documentation I can show you. The reason it was never written down was because the True Art of Archery was suppressed by the Babylonian Empire and then the Persian Empire as well as the Ottoman Empire. Anyone who was found to be practicing this secret Art of Mesopotamian Archery would have been executed.I also cannot show you any proof that my grandfather existed. This is because he had to live in secret. He was involved in some of the battles with the Turks for control of Cyprus. If I were to show any proof that he taught me the Mesopotamian Art of Archery, it would cause huge political problems on Cyprus.But wait ... oh my God ... just this morning I was thumbing through a copy of the Holy Bible. And guess what!!!! I just happened to open up at Genesis 10:8 and look what I found:

Cush begot Nimrod; he began to be a mighty one on the earth. He was a mighty hunter before the Lord; therefore it is said, "Like Nimrod the mighty hunter before the Lord."

I can't believe it!!! What a coup!!! There is independent mention in the Holy Bible of a man called Nimrod who was a hunter. And he lived in the period that I claimed. So you see, I WAS telling the truth all along.(Just as an aside, I have never cared about the history stuff. I just care whether I can hit the target with my Bow and Arrow. Anyone who still doubts my lineage claims is welcome to come and let me shoot them with my Bow and Arrow.)

 

[Don Roley]

If you want to use the Koyama work mentioning Nishina to prove that Mr Takamatsu was taught by Mr Toda, then I demand you recognise me as the headmaster of the True Mesopotamian Art of Archery. Here's my story:I learned this art from my grandfather in Greece. He taught me and made me his heir when he died. He said that the art started about 4000 years ago in Mesopotamia with a man called Nimrod. It was then passed down in secret, through the Empires until it reached Greece and my great great great grandfather. From there, it was passed down through my family until I learned it.The art was all passed down orally (kuden ) and so there is no documentation I can show you. The reason it was never written down was because the True Art of Archery was suppressed by the Babylonian Empire and then the Persian Empire as well as the Ottoman Empire. Anyone who was found to be practicing this secret Art of Mesopotamian Archery would have been executed.I also cannot show you any proof that my grandfather existed. This is because he had to live in secret. He was involved in some of the battles with the Turks for control of Cyprus. If I were to show any proof that he taught me the Mesopotamian Art of Archery, it would cause huge political problems on Cyprus.But wait ... oh my God ... just this morning I was thumbing through a copy of the Holy Bible. And guess what!!!! I just happened to open up at Genesis 10:8 and look what I found:I can't believe it!!! What a coup!!! There is independent mention in the Holy Bible of a man called Nimrod who was a hunter. And he lived in the period that I claimed. So you see, I WAS telling the truth all along.(Just as an aside, I have never cared about the history stuff. I just care whether I can hit the target with my Bow and Arrow. Anyone who still doubts my lineage claims is welcome to come and let me shoot them with my Bow and Arrow.)

No, you are misinterpeting the information I gave you before.

Here is the thing. Independent researchers not involved in teaching Bujinkan have found evidence that the guy that Takamatsu told Hatsumi started the Togakure ryu actually existed as laid out in the legend.

But the important thing is that there seems to be no eveidence that Takamatsu ever knew that there was any evidence (unlike your little story.)

It was only after Takamatsu died that other people were able to find and prove that parts of his story were verifiably true.

Now maybe Takamatsu had also found the same evidence and never, ever told anyone about it. If so, he would be the first person to do so that I am aware of. And I have seen a lot of people making claims like that. That right there gives me and a lot of others a heck of a lot of reasonable doubt about the accusations you make about him making things up.

Now, if you want to claim that he made it up- then prove it. Is that not what you have been saying, that people making the claims have the burdon of proof? I would like some sort of proof that you can show me that indicates that Takamatsu was even aware that there was collaberating evidence to his story before I accept your contention. You say that maybe he made it up- which of course means that maybe he did not. What part of your accusation can you prove?

If you want to say you don't know and don't see enough evidence to be able to accept the story- then I am fine with that. But your constant trolling and trying to present the idea that Takamatsu made things up as a fact is your responsability to prove.

 

[Koryu Rich]

Well, let's start with me! I was personally turned away from a koryu kenjutsu school in Europe back in 2001 or thereabouts. They were very polite and said they had to ask the headmaster in Japan. They eventually got back to me and told me politely but firmly "No". I didn't have any tattoos, didn't have a criminal record, no drug use, no links to Al-Qaeda, nothing like that. They politely told me my application was declined and I would have to give up Ninjutsu if I wanted to reapply.In addition, I know of quite a senior Shidoshi in England who was turned away from the Toda Ha Buko Ryu. He went to Japan in person to apply, but was still refused. He was also not accepted by the Araki Ryu. It may or may not have been Ellis Amdur's teacher that he asked. I can't say for sure.Then there was a Bujinkan person in the USA I know of. He tried to enter the Yagyu Ryu Kenjutsu under Meik Skoss in the USA. He was told no.I also have heard (but I am willing to be corrected as it is 2nd hand) that Master Otake of Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu will not accept students with a X-kan background.Now maybe these are all isolated instances and not representative of the wider koryu teachers. I cannot say for sure.

See that's more like it.

At least you've, to a degree, given some examples instead of making blanket statements.

Question for you! Was you turned down specifically because of training in Ninjutsu or was it due to just training in another art? Which Ryu was it?

Again this Shidoshi was the reason he was turned away just due to Ninjutsu, you merely said he was turned away. I'm not going to ask for a name as I don't feel it would be appropriate but just saying a Shidoshi isn't really going to improve peoples confidence in what you say, the same goes for this Bujinkan person in the US that you know of. Where did you here about these people was it via personal experience or online “research"?

The reason for my interest in this part of the discussion is because I’m lucky enough to train in a Koryu.