Interesting interview

[bully]

I found this interesting, mainly because I trained with this guy for 6 weeks. He says some interesting things about Wing Chun, its mainland not YM and he seems to modified it a bit too

Monkey Steals Peach

He mentions a form before SLT, the 12 free hands. (I learnt this)

Did YM learn this and drop it or was it something that he was never taught?

Thoughts?

 

[Juany118]

I found this interesting, mainly because I trained with this guy for 6 weeks. He says some interesting things about Wing Chun, its mainland not YM and he seems to modified it a bit too

Monkey Steals Peach

He mentions a form before SLT, the 12 free hands. (I learnt this)

Did YM learn this and drop it or was it something that he was never taught?

Thoughts?

I think the most likely explanation is described here in the video... An interesting story of the YM Mook Jong

A practitioner who doesn't intend to teach will make any MA, not just WC, their own. Even in modern MMA we see participants who are better strikers trying to keep the fight "standing", better grapplers trying to take the fight to the ground etc. The same with WC.

So, my opinion, is this. Studying YM's history he never expected to be a professional WC teacher. He became a police officer under the Chinese Nationalist Government but when the Communists won he had to flee to Hong Kong to live. He was a great WC fighter BUT he had made WC his own. So when he found himself having to teach to pay the bills he had to remember a curriculum he never thought he had to teach and what he could not remember he had to reinvent. When we reinvent something it is always through our personal lens.

 

[Nobody Important]

I found this interesting, mainly because I trained with this guy for 6 weeks. He says some interesting things about Wing Chun, its mainland not YM and he seems to modified it a bit too

Monkey Steals Peach

He mentions a form before SLT, the 12 free hands. (I learnt this)

Did YM learn this and drop it or was it something that he was never taught?

Thoughts?

The 12 Loose Hands are a set of San Sik found in Yuen family & another version is found in Sum Nung WC. They are similar, but Sum Nung's version comes from Chung Bo. Much like Kulo WC it is a separate version of WC, compact & complete. It was developed for quick understanding of rudimentary self defense & is a good introduction into Wing Chun. I don't believe Yip Man ever learned it, though he did have a codified 16 San Sik method. How similar, I don't know.

 

[wckf92]

.... Yip Man ever learned it, though he did have a codified 16 San Sik method. How similar, I don't know.

Any more info about these 16? I read about this on another forum once, but if memory serves the number was 18 (?)

 

[bully]

Sorry to sound stupid but what do you mean by "codified 16 San Sik method"

Thanks for your post NI, I was hoping someone would know a bit more about the origins of that form.

We also did a WC footwork drill called "steps and stances" everyday in China which was something I hadn't done before.

It encompassed lots of WC footwork, including some stuff I hadn't done before.

I would post a video of me doing it but the ensuing 2000 posts saying your left foot was 3mm offline, 0.0009 degrees out and weighting is wrong because I was taught the only correct one by Ip Man on his deathbed, would likely annoy me.

Its a shame as different lineages could probably take something from it and adapt it with their own nuances and use it as something different to use as a learning tool. I remember as a beginner the hours of "Arrow Walking" up and down the hall we used, this drill would have been a welcome break whilst still teaching us footwork.

 

[Nobody Important]

Any more info about these 16? I read about this on another forum once, but if memory serves the number was 18 (?)

Sorry I don't know too much about it, Joy may be a good one to ask, he is Yip Man line. There is a list floating about somewhere listing the 16 techniques.

 

[Nobody Important]

Sorry to sound stupid but what do you mean by "codified 16 San Sik method"

Thanks for your post NI, I was hoping someone would know a bit more about the origins of that form.

We also did a WC footwork drill called "steps and stances" everyday in China which was something I hadn't done before.

It encompassed lots of WC footwork, including some stuff I hadn't done before.

I would post a video of me doing it but the ensuing 2000 posts saying your left foot was 3mm offline, 0.0009 degrees out and weighting is wrong because I was taught the only correct one by Ip Man on his deathbed, would likely annoy me.

Its a shame as different lineages could probably take something from it and adapt it with their own nuances and use it as something different to use as a learning tool. I remember as a beginner the hours of "Arrow Walking" up and down the hall we used, this drill would have been a welcome break whilst still teaching us footwork.

Hi Bully,

You are most welcome, glad it was of use. Codified is probably a poor choice on my part. From my understanding Yip Man had a standardized/formal set of San Sik (16-18) that he once taught.

I don't blame you for not wanting to upload a video about that footwork drill you learned. It can be frustrating to have to listen to naysayers, and not have the ability to smack hecklers in the mouth.

 

[Juany118]

The 12 Loose Hands are a set of San Sik found in Yuen family & another version is found in Sum Nung WC. They are similar, but Sum Nung's version comes from Chung Bo. Much like Kulo WC it is a separate version of WC, compact & complete. It was developed for quick understanding of rudimentary self defense & is a good introduction into Wing Chun. I don't believe Yip Man ever learned it, though he did have a codified 16 San Sik method. How similar, I don't know.

Do you mean this? Yip Man's san sao techniques(?)

 

[Vajramusti]

Sorry I don't know too much about it, Joy may be a good one to ask, he is Yip Man line. There is a list floating about somewhere listing the 16 techniques.

------------------------------------------------------------------
I work with (Augustine Fong line) 20 single hand san sik motions and about 8 two had motions
then do them with footwork and then work with somebody to sharpen timing of each motion.

 

[Nobody Important]

Do you mean this? Yip Man's san sao techniques(?)

Yes this appears to be it, though I'm not YM WC so can't verify.

 

[ob1]

From another forum about 10 years ago.. didnt note which at time... so I cant give you reference to the person who posted
Yip Mans Sup Baat San Sao Eighteen Separate Hands
Sup Baat San Sao

The Sup Baat San Sao (18 Separate Hands) are believed to be a rare and informal part of the Yip Man Wing Chun Kuen system taught by the late Yip Man to some of his early students. They are typically organized as follows (though thusfar only a small sampling has been possible):

Pien San Choi (Side Body Punch)
Pien San Tan Da (Side Body Disperse and Hit)
Pien San Jut Da (Side Body Choke and Hit)
Pien San Gaun Da (Side Body Cultivate and Hit)
Pien San Pak Da (Side Body Slap and Hit)
Tan Da Seung Chung Choi (Disperse and Hit with Double Punch)
Seung Ma Lien Wan Choi (Chasing Horse Linked Chain Punches)
Seung Ma Jing Gerk (Chasing Horse Straight Kick)
Dai Bong Saam Gwok Pak Da (Low Bong Triangle (Step) Slap and Hit)
Kwan Sao Po Pai Sao (Twining Hands Shield-Holding Hands)
Bong Sao Lop Sao Jong Jeung (Wing Arm Grasping Arm Thrusting Palm)
Gum Sao Saam Gwok Pak Da (Pinning Hand Triangle (Step) Slap and Hit)
Gwun Ma Jin Choi (Pole Horse Arrow Punch)
Seung Lop Sao Gerk (Double Grasp Hands Kick)
Gaun Sao Po Pai Sao (Cultivating Arm Shield-Holding Hands)
Gwai Ma Jin Choi (Kneeling Horse Arrow Punch)
Huen Kao Sao Saam Go Jing Jeung Dae Jeung (Circle and Detain Arm Three Straight Palms Low Palm)
Seung Ma Seung Chuen Sao Seung Chung (Chasing Horse Double Piercing Hand Double Thrust)

 

[KPM]

^^^^^ Same list as from the older thread that Juany linked above. Here is what I said on that thread from 2015:

I don't have first-hand knowledge. But I can tell you my impressions. I think this is said to be an "informal" part of the curriculum because typically no one bothers to break it out and give it a fancy name. Most of what is described on this list are simply basic drills one practices....punching with a pivot, Tan Sau with pivot, Pak Sau with a pivot, punching with a chase step, kicking with steps, etc. I learned most of this when I was doing Ip Man Wing Chun, but we didn't group it together and give it a name. And there were far more than 18 drills! I can tell you this is different than the way things are done in Pin Sun Wing Chun. Each of the formal solo sets in Pin Sun has at least three movements or techniques.

 

[DanT]

It seems to me that these "san sik" are just glorified Drills. At my school we do these but we don't call them San sik we just call them Turining drills or line drills. Examples:

- Chun kune with Turning stance
-jam sao, step, double side kick
-pak, pak, pak da
-double punch, double front kick
-tan da, gan da
-jab, double roundhouse kick
-double Jam Sao, double Chum Sao
Etc

I could list probably over 40 drills that anyone could pretend are special when in reality they're just drills.

 

[KPM]

I think this is Joy's disconnect when he says bad things about Pin Sun Wing Chun. He knows little about Pin Sun and assumes that it is just a collection of drills like those listed on this thread. But it isn't. The actual Ku Lo Pin Sun San Sik are more complicated than this list of straight-forward drills.

 

[ob1]

Sorry about duplicating that earlier post (of Yip Man's supposed San Sik). Had hoped to add something

forms are just a series of san sik strung together.
san sik can be strung together and practiced like a form or practiced separately. Techniques can be pulled out of a form and practiced separately too.
Applications can be derived from either san sik or techniques pulled out of a form.
san sik can be for various purposes eg practice of technque, honing frequently used responses (a smaller number of responses reduces reaction time), quicker learning that covers the most likely situations [but must include some vunerabilities to less common situations where other techniques are needed], training of physical fitness attributes, training of combat attributes etc. Of course the whole idea of WCK (and its forms) also evolved in these directions compared to many other arts

It is the intention or theoretical reasons behind training the technique which is not often written down and this results in lengthy discussions of subjective opinion.
WCKs sophistication is complicated enough when the discussion is amongst 2 people in the same room and there is demonstration and application.

Tried for a long time to pull apart SLT, CK,BJ and WD with the aim of deriving either a simpler form with the critical movements or a set of san sik.
The idea being that some practice of the most important things is better than none when time is short.
Still trying with very limited success.