The Biu Jee Enigma

[wckf92]

This could be a difficult discussion topic...given the wide range of knife forms out there.
Some forms look like kindergarten, others more serious

 

[wingchun100]

My "out of place" comment was really directed back to the OP. I get your points, Juany, but I've never full embraced the "emergency techniques/recovery theory" of biu jee. It is a common one and it may be true, but as Vaj suggested, it feels like a natural extension of the previous forms more so than something contradictory to me.

I do happen to buy into the notion that White Crane is ancestral to Wing Chun, but I've never thought of Si Lim Tao being related to San Chin. I'd need some time to think about that one.

The one Wing Chun form that I do feel like I've seen a Crane equivalent to was Biu Jee, but it's not from the family of Crane that I study.

I have heard it called the emergency form as well. What I notice is that, as you move forward in your forms, you are exposed to techniques that have more power/more damage.

EXAMPLE: In Sil Lum Tao, the techniques can seem "wimpy" at first because you don't pivot at all. Chum Kiu, you start learning to pivot and use your stance to get some power behind things. Then in Biu Jee, you learn elbows and finger jabs. (I know some might say those are in the first two forms, and I agree, but in Biu Jee those techniques are more "up front" and "out in the open.")

 

[Vajramusti]

Okay, here is the ideas of a person who had to fight more than a bit due to his career before he serious started studying WC. I am more focused on the reason for Bil Jee and not the "source here" fyi.

I see it and what do I see? I am doing a form designed for the "Oh CRAP!!!!" moment. If I am thrusting with fingers for the eyes etc it is because "oh crap I need space". If I am throwing elbows like that, and elbows are effective btw, it is because "oh crap I got TOO close and need space to escape". If we are forced to define what the forms are for, I see SLT as the foundation/alphabet. CK as "well now you are fighting". BJ as "okay something went side ways, time to make and opening so you can get back in control." So, imo it is possible BJ is simply a "child" of all the forms in WC/VT. It need not have an origin outside at this point. It is taking what is already WC/VT and simply acknowledging that inevitably in some fight, somewhere, things will go sideways.

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There are difficulties in being accurate with verbal generalizations\re wing chun-but I try in a sharing spirit. I don't quite know what you are saying.
. We distinguish between "development" and "application". An important distinction.Development involves knowing the key motion or motions which much be practiced again and again in order to be embedded in our reflexes. Applications are derivatives of the key concept(s) and there can be many,In bj a key concept is the biu- shoot. the jee -energy exiting via the fingers.

This not mean that the contact point is necessarily the fingers-could be but not necessarily so.

Since slt is the nucleus form it has elements of the others embedded in it- biu sao later on lead to biu jee

 

[Juany118]

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There are difficulties in being accurate with verbal generalizations\re wing chun-but I try in a sharing spirit. I don't quite know what you are saying.
. We distinguish between "development" and "application". An important distinction.Development involves knowing the key motion or motions which much be practiced again and again in order to be embedded in our reflexes. Applications are derivatives of the key concept(s) and there can be many,In bj a key concept is the biu- shoot. the jee -energy exiting via the fingers.

This not mean that the contact point is necessarily the fingers-could be but not necessarily so.

Since slt is the nucleus form it has elements of the others embedded in it- biu sao later on lead to biu jee

Thank you sir. I also agree with the "contact point" issue you raised. I recall reading you saying something similar regarding the punch in an article you wrote. In fact I agree with almost everything you say.

Let me try to clarify what I was trying to say. The following will also be focused solely on the forms. Also note, I am far from a teacher, the below is my simple, and like inadequate way, of describing the concepts as I understand them.

I see the SLT and I see, and am taught, that this is the Alphabet upon which the "language" of my WC is built.

When we move to CK, again it is just a form but it is adding, in the form vs a drill, mechanics that one would use in fighting where you are in control. Rotation, yet while remaining stable, body mechanics that provide power, again while remaining stable.

BJ/BG we also learn to develop power and improved upon what we learned in CK regarding maintaining stable structure with movement, but it can also shows us it can be applied to times where we need to escape. When we are in danger of being trapped and the like. Some people may call it "emergency" or "recovery". I used the term "oh crap" because in my line of work that is the polite way to describe what has passed through my mind on some occasions.

So they are all development tools that when looked at provide foundations for different general concepts of application. I am sure I totally worded that poorly but it's the best I can do since I tend to "feel" the forms vs intellectualize them.

 

[Danny T]

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There are difficulties in being accurate with verbal generalizations\re wing chun-but I try in a sharing spirit. I don't quite know what you are saying.
. We distinguish between "development" and "application". An important distinction.Development involves knowing the key motion or motions which much be practiced again and again in order to be embedded in our reflexes. Applications are derivatives of the key concept(s) and there can be many,In bj a key concept is the biu- shoot. the jee -energy exiting via the fingers.

This not mean that the contact point is necessarily the fingers-could be but not necessarily so.

Since slt is the nucleus form it has elements of the others embedded in it- biu sao later on lead to biu jee

Yep.

 

[ShortBridge]

My very high level thoughts are that the system starts off very restrictive. Little to no movement, very strict concept of center. Stillness. Through the forms it opens up and gets less restrictive.

I don't see Biu Jee as anything antithetical or situationally specific, I see it as an invitation to move less linearly and in a less constrained way than you were taught for x years. It is a good pedagogy. It forces proper structure, grounding, adherence before it invites you to bend those rules.

When I see a "Wing Chun doesn't work against x" video on YouTube, it's usually someone using a very strict, liner SLT notion of Wing Chun, rather than someone who has come through that, built on it and is then expressing ideas from the later understanding of the system.

These are just some of my personal thoughts on the subject and I don't consider them a complete explanation.

 

[LFJ]

I try in a sharing spirit.

If so, can you share with me what sections of WSL's BJ form are "sloppy" and why?

Otherwise, it sounds like another drive-by shot.

If true, I'd definitely like to know! Please share.

Do you at least have an example of a nice and tidy BJ I can observe?

 

[Nobody Important]

This could be a difficult discussion topic...given the wide range of knife forms out there.
Some forms look like kindergarten, others more serious

Pot stirrer, lol!

 

[KPM]

It is pretty well-known that Ip Man choreographed his own knife form and came up with the "Baat Jam Do" name himself. The Yuen Kay Shan lineage history says that the knives were added to the system by Fok Bo Chuen, who was Leung Jan's classmate under Wong Wah Bo. The guys in Ku Lo village say that Leung Jan did not teach knives. So these two stories are pretty consistent. Plenty of Ku Lo guys now have knives in their Wing Chun, but this is because they quickly realized that the empty hand San Sik could be easily adapted to the knives.

 

[anerlich]

I see bil jee as more of a "once you know the rules you can start breaking them" sort of form. Using both arms on one, using the elbows when the bridge collapses or you collapse it yourself, etc. FWIW.

The squarest peg in the roundest hole in WC is the pole form IMO, and some histories have it drafted in later.

Does it matter? A false consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds. It is what it is.