Indian girl uses Karate to defend herself. Is Karate an effective martial art for self defense?

[RTKDCMB]

It makes perfect sense given that that range of fighting wasn't deemed important when Karate was formulated. The problem is that now in the modern day that range of fighting (along with stand up) has matured and Karate simply hasn't modernized itself to meet those changing dynamics.

And you think that applies to all Karate except for the ones you personally accept? How cute.

 

[Tez3]

Actually yes they are. It makes perfect sense given that that range of fighting wasn't deemed important when Karate was formulated. The problem is that now in the modern day that range of fighting (along with stand up) has matured and Karate simply hasn't modernized itself to meet those changing dynamics. If you value pre-arranged forms and traditions, than by all means. However, if someone was learning how to fight I wouldn't suggest a karate school unless it was Kyukushin or similar.

BTW, I never said that Karate was "pants". I said that its better than nothing and that the more modern variations derived from Kyukushin are just fine.

You haven't trained enough karate nor know enough about it to give an informed opinion of karate. You make so many assumptions I'm not going to debunk them because I don't want to sit typing for hours. Karate was designed for civilian self defence as we have told you time and time again and time and time again you insist on cluttering up threads with ideas about karate that simply aren't true. We get that you don't like karate, that's fine I hate green vegetables, I don't however go around foodie sites telling people they are useless and horrible. We know your opinion and that it flies in the face of everything that is we know to be true , we call that Donald Trumpitis. It's the ability to totally ignore truths and to make up your own world, sometimes to a dangerous to others degree. Just accept than we make karate work, you can't but that's another problem altogether.

 

[Hanzou]

You haven't trained enough karate nor know enough about it to give an informed opinion of karate. You make so many assumptions I'm not going to debunk them because I don't want to sit typing for hours. Karate was designed for civilian self defence as we have told you time and time again and time and time again you insist on cluttering up threads with ideas about karate that simply aren't true. We get that you don't like karate, that's fine I hate green vegetables, I don't however go around foodie sites telling people they are useless and horrible. We know your opinion and that it flies in the face of everything that is we know to be true , we call that Donald Trumpitis. It's the ability to totally ignore truths and to make up your own world, sometimes to a dangerous to others degree. Just accept than we make karate work, you can't but that's another problem altogether.

It was designed for civilian self defense almost a century ago in Asia. Quite a bit has changed since that time, and Karate hasn't changed much at all.

 

[oftheherd1]

Karate is more suited to the street, than the grappling styles. Although, knowing both is a plus.

Out of curiosity, which style of Karate and which style of grappling art do you study?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Out of curiosity, which style of Karate and which style of grappling art do you study?

Kenpo. We just steal grappling stuff.

 

[Tez3]

It was designed for civilian self defense almost a century ago in Asia. Quite a bit has changed since that time, and Karate hasn't changed much at all.

Ah my dear, you are just so wrong. The more things change the more they stay the same. Modern karate instructors aren't stuck in the past and I would remind you than many styles of karate such as my own had a founder who was alive for most of my lifetime.

 

[donald1]

It isn't. The preference for Krav Maga or Bjj is because if the karate practitioner gets tackled or ends up on the ground they're pretty much done for.

Anyone who dosn't have ground fighting experience will be done for that does not always mean the karateka student it done for. If someone is done for its because they are not good at ground fighting. Do some karate schools dont teach ground fighting? Maybe. But just because they cant does not mean all. it does not mean most. I know quite a bit of karate students who practice ground falls and ground fighting. Its still traditional karate.

Hmm 1st post on the forum is to post a thread about a topic thats beat to death around here. Then the resident BJJ fan boy shows up shortly after to "pounce" lol

And it probably wont be the last. Im sure somewhere along the line someone else will post something similar

 

[Hanzou]

Anyone who dosn't have ground fighting experience will be done for that does not always mean the karateka student it done for. If someone is done for its because they are not good at ground fighting. Do some karate schools dont teach ground fighting? Maybe. But just because they cant does not mean all. it does not mean most. I know quite a bit of karate students who practice ground falls and ground fighting. Its still traditional karate.

Spending 20 minutes every month or so on break falling, or kicking and punching while on your knees isn't what I'm talking about when I say "ground fighting".

Anyway, feel free to have the last word.

 

[TimoS]

Do you really have to have this "conversation " about karate's effectiveness again? Here's how it goes: someone says something positive about karate as a self defense art. Another, usually Hanzou, comes to tell that karate is useless for self defense. People point out examples, Hanzou ignores everything and keeps insisting that his point of view is the only valid. People lose their cool, arguments start. This goes on for pages, neither side changes their opinion. Then a few months of silence and everything starts all over again in a different thread

 

[Tony Dismukes]

It is sometimes said that karate is not the best martial art for self-defense. Many people prefer Krav Maga and Jiu-Jitsu.

No art is the "best" for self-defense. Too much depends on the individual and the situation.

Some people prefer Krav Maga and Jiu-jitsu. Some people prefer Karate of one form or another. Some people prefer Wing Chun or Judo or Kali or any one of a myriad of arts.

The only folks making a big deal about "my martial art is better than all these others are either instructors engaged in advertising for their product or evangelical partisans who believe they've found the one true way and that they can convince everybody else of that if they just repeat it enough. (Cue Hanzou's arrival in the thread a little further down.)

An incident which occurred in India this year seems to prove otherwise:

A single incident doesn't prove anything about whether an art is good or bad or the best for self-defense. It just indicates that one individual was able to defend themself in one particular situation using whatever they've learned.

Karate is more suited to the street, than the grappling styles. Although, knowing both is a plus.

I'd say it mostly depends on how the karate or grappling art was trained than anything else, although I agree that it's good to understand both striking and grappling.

Fighting/combat sports and self defence are not the same thing (the differences have been discussed elsewhere on this site many times) and that fact that something works (or does not work) in one field does not mean it will (or will not) work in the other. So the lack of effectiveness of [insert name of martial art here] in the UFC has absolutely no bearing on it's effectiveness for self defence.

Yes and no.

As we've discussed before, most of self-defense is not about fighting. However the primary use of any martial art in self-defense is in the subsection of self-defense that involves fighting. If a martial doesn't improve your ability to fight in some context, then it probably is not going to help your self-defense capability much.

The most useful and appropriate tactics and techniques for fighting do vary considerably in different contexts. Two trained unarmed fighters squaring off in a challenge match is not the same as a teenage girl fending off a date rapist is not the same as a group of orderlies trying to subdue a psychiatric patient having a violent psychotic break is not the same as soldiers using bayonets in the trenches of WWI. Nevertheless, there are also commonalities as well and it is possible to gain useful insights from observations in one context that can be applied to another. I would recommend that anyone interested in "street application" of their martial art not dismiss the lessons from MMA any more than they should blindly assume that the best tactics for the cage match those of the street.

The preference for Krav Maga or Bjj is because if the karate practitioner gets tackled or ends up on the ground they're pretty much done for.

Maybe if they are taken down by someone who is an expert in groundfighting. Fortunately for the karateka, the overwhelming majority of self-defense situations don't involve assailants who are expert groundfighters.

Additionally other striking styles (mainly forms of boxing) teaches more effective fighting tactics, like head movement and footwork.

Good karate has good footwork. I'll agree that boxing is best for head movement, however there are other useful elements that can be found in karate but not boxing.

KM, MMA, and Bjj incorporates what works, and actively evolve their respective systems constantly.

True, but evolution (in biology or martial arts) improves fitness within a specific context. You could easily argue that a large percentage of BJJ students are being more poorly prepared for street self-defense than they would have been a generation ago because they are focused on learning how to win BJJ tournaments at the expense of stand-up, takedown, and punch defense skills.

Karate by and large does not, and prefers to adhere to tradition above everything else.

Eh. "Karate" is a huge umbrella and it includes people who are innovating, people dedicated to tradition, and people who think they are innovating or being traditional when they really aren't.

 

[drop bear]

Anyone who dosn't have ground fighting experience will be done for that does not always mean the karateka student it done for. If someone is done for its because they are not good at ground fighting. Do some karate schools dont teach ground fighting? Maybe. But just because they cant does not mean all. it does not mean most. I know quite a bit of karate students who practice ground falls and ground fighting. Its still traditional karate.

I have never seen it or heard of it. I done done 3 ot 4 mabye a year stretch back in the day. Shotokan,wado ryu I know the kyokushin guys. Even did Zen do kai for a bit. Not exactly heaps but enough to have noticed if they do comprehensive ground work.

Zen do kai did the most but took it from the beej and were honest about that.

I had done 5 years of judo and jjj before I looked at a karate. So I had a bit of an idea what comprehensive ground work looked like. (We were rolling for sub's even then)

Most of what I saw in karate was trip and strike stuff. With the mantra that strong stances were enough to prevent take downs. But all of that was just after ufc 1 so the grappling boom had not really started.

So to sum up in my experience I would say most karate do not do ground work. I am not even sure why that opinion would even be an issue.

 

[Tez3]

I have never seen it or heard of it. I done done 3 ot 4 mabye a year stretch back in the day. Shotokan,wado ryu I know the kyokushin guys. Even did Zen do kai for a bit. Not exactly heaps but enough to have noticed if they do comprehensive ground work.

Zen do kai did the most but took it from the beej and were honest about that.

I had done 5 years of judo and jjj before I looked at a karate. So I had a bit of an idea what comprehensive ground work looked like. (We were rolling for sub's even then)

Most of what I saw in karate was trip and strike stuff. With the mantra that strong stances were enough to prevent take downs. But all of that was just after ufc 1 so the grappling boom had not really started.

So to sum up in my experience I would say most karate do not do ground work. I am not even sure why that opinion would even be an issue.

Well you said it, it's your opinion, you are entitled to it of course but you aren't entitled to your own truth. You have had a slight experience with karate, 3 or 4 years in multiple styles, not really long enough in any one to actually know what they do. Ok, you didn't do 'ground work' in your fleeting karate career and 5 years of Judo makes you an expert lol ( my instructor has 45 years of Judo experience and 40 of karate so guess who I'll listen to) There are karateka who have an extensive experience in ground work, there's Judoka with extensive experience in striking, the trick of course is not to generalise and not to disagree just because you like arguments or should I say 'sparring' online which is what you call it. You don't know all the karateka and karate clubs/schools so really cannot say based on your slight acquaintance with karate what is done. It might surprise you to know that we were grappling in karate looooong before UFC1, our founder was an extremely good 'grappler', a master in fact.

 

[JP3]

This sounds very much like a thread from bullshido.net, just sayin'.

 

[drop bear]

Well you said it, it's your opinion, you are entitled to it of course but you aren't entitled to your own truth. You have had a slight experience with karate, 3 or 4 years in multiple styles, not really long enough in any one to actually know what they do. Ok, you didn't do 'ground work' in your fleeting karate career and 5 years of Judo makes you an expert lol ( my instructor has 45 years of Judo experience and 40 of karate so guess who I'll listen to) There are karateka who have an extensive experience in ground work, there's Judoka with extensive experience in striking, the trick of course is not to generalise and not to disagree just because you like arguments or should I say 'sparring' online which is what you call it. You don't know all the karateka and karate clubs/schools so really cannot say based on your slight acquaintance with karate what is done. It might surprise you to know that we were grappling in karate looooong before UFC1, our founder was an extremely good 'grappler', a master in fact.

Yes it would surprise me. And not because i like sparring or argument. The trick is to be swayed by evidence rather than stories.

And because i have seen no evidence of karate based grappling other than mabye the ocasional arm lock or trip. I am going to still follow the logic that they dont really do it.

I mean i am pretty sure i dont have to do ten years of a martial art to notice if they do ground fighting.

I have never seen karate grappling anywhere.

Now the interesting thing is the karate styles i have been in contact with are also ego free enough to accept they dont really grapple. They dont get in a huff. And would even suggest that their guys do some grappling.

 

[Skullpunch]

You have had a slight experience with karate, 3 or 4 years in multiple styles, not really long enough in any one to actually know what they do. Ok, you didn't do 'ground work' in your fleeting karate career and 5 years of Judo makes you an expert lol ( my instructor has 45 years of Judo experience and 40 of karate so guess who I'll listen to)

So how long does someone have to do karate before they start meeting these members who became experts on the ground just by studying karate? Several years isn't enough? It's reasonable to train for several years without meeting a single grappling expert in an art that supposedly can turn you into an expert grappler? In MMA, bjj, and judo, I met competent ground grapplers my first day in all three of those training environments.

 

[Tez3]

In MMA, bjj, and judo, I met competent ground grapplers my first day in all three of those training environments.

Well I would really hope you would otherwise it would have been pointless training there wouldn't it!

Putting your sarcasm to one side, I think you perhaps have to know what karate is before you can criticise it. I could spend some time telling you but you could also spend some times looking at what experienced karateka on this site have said. To keep reiterating what we say is tiresome when those who think they know what karate is have closed minds and a tendency to only believe their own prejudices. It's not attacking the two posters who dismiss karate here when I say that they both have admitted they have only attended karate classes for a short time before deciding they know all there is to know about karate.
For you benefit I will tell you I also take BJJ, have some Judo and am heavily involved in all aspects of MMA including training.

 

[drop bear]

Well I would really hope you would otherwise it would have been pointless training there wouldn't it!

Putting your sarcasm to one side, I think you perhaps have to know what karate is before you can criticise it. I could spend some time telling you but you could also spend some times looking at what experienced karateka on this site have said. To keep reiterating what we say is tiresome when those who think they know what karate is have closed minds and a tendency to only believe their own prejudices. It's not attacking the two posters who dismiss karate here when I say that they both have admitted they have only attended karate classes for a short time before deciding they know all there is to know about karate.
For you benefit I will tell you I also take BJJ, have some Judo and am heavily involved in all aspects of MMA including training.

So how long would I have to have done karate before I saw the grappling system?

 

[drop bear]

Looks like this ian guy hasn't been studying karate long enough to learn the comprehensive grappling.

Karate Grappling: Did It Really Exist? | Iain Abernethy

Which is scarily along the lines of what hanzau said.

 

[Skullpunch]

Well I would really hope you would otherwise it would have been pointless training there wouldn't it!

Putting your sarcasm to one side, I think you perhaps have to know what karate is before you can criticise it. I could spend some time telling you but you could also spend some times looking at what experienced karateka on this site have said. To keep reiterating what we say is tiresome when those who think they know what karate is have closed minds and a tendency to only believe their own prejudices. It's not attacking the two posters who dismiss karate here when I say that they both have admitted they have only attended karate classes for a short time before deciding they know all there is to know about karate.
For you benefit I will tell you I also take BJJ, have some Judo and am heavily involved in all aspects of MMA including training.

It wasn't sarcasm, it was a literal question. In every art I know of that is proven to be able to make you a competent grappler you can see the competent grapplers in that art in one day. So how long do you have to train karate before you start meeting the guys that became good ground fighters just by training karate? And why is karate the only martial art in human history that can make you an expert grappler where you have to train for so many years to be able to even see it's grappling prowess that can make you an expert grappler?

 

[ballen0351]

It wasn't sarcasm, it was a literal question. In every art I know of that is proven to be able to make you a competent grappler you can see the competent grapplers in that art in one day.

HUH?

So how long do you have to train karate before you start meeting the guys that became good ground fighters just by training karate?

depends on style, school, instructor, and student

And why is karate the only martial art in human history that can make you an expert grappler where you have to train for so many years to be able to even see it's grappling prowess that can make you an expert grappler?

You don't need to be an "expert" to effectively use ground ighting skills taught in certain styles of karate