Independant Or With An Organization

[Blindside]

Organization = legitimacy.

I do not know of any cons.

and yes we belong to one. It traces roots all the way back to funakoshi. My senseis were students of Mr Nishiyama who were student of Mr Funakoshi.

If you weren't part of an organization and someone questioned who you were and what you do, you would say exactly what you just did; "my senseis were students of Mr. Nishiyama who was a student of Mr. Funakoshi." You answer lies in your lineage, not that you art part of some larger association, again it is that student teacher relationship.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Hi Sean,

But how many schools belong to any one organization to make that even remotely likely? Kenpo2000 has how many affiliate schools? Looking for a list and not finding one on the kenpo2000 site (and its sort of odd for an association not to list its affiliated schools btw), I'll have to extrapolate from the number of website links that are offered. There are 12 links, looks like at least 3 of those are from international schools. So lets say that only 1/4 of all Kenpo2000 schools has a website, so there are 36 affiliated North America, this is me just making up a number here.

So what are the odds that if I move away from wherever I am studying to somewhere else in the US that there is a Kenpo2000 affiliate nearby. Say you move from Spokane to the Tri-Cities, Seattle, Tacoma, Boise, Portland, or Eugene, all of the major metropolitan locations in the PNW. How many of those have a Kenpo2000 affiliate? I might be wrong, but I don't think any of them do. Even if we take the AKTS, the kenpo org with the biggest PNW presence, it only hits 4 of the 7 cities. So the benefit of an organization is that if you move the the biggest centers of population in a three state area you have between a 0 and 60% chance of not having to change your curriculum? I am not really finding that a compelling argument.

I didn't say my particular organization dominates the market, I am saying if you have an affiliate near by, it would be a positive thing. Look at TKD, or the Jeff Speakman thing, they are all over the place; so, its a possibility that there is one near where you move to, where ever that might be. Another downside to consider is that the culture of the new school still might not be quite the same; so, as you say, it really is about the relationship between teacher and student. That being said, sticking to your style as it were, is a more comfortable transition.
Sean

 

[Blade96]

I'd say verifiable lineage may equal legitimacy, and perhaps within a specific art, an organization may indeed equal legitimacy (given the caliber of the organization you are a part of, it is no wonder you would hold organizations in esteem).

But, with respect, I must disagree with you in saying so without any qualifiers. As I stated previously, all organizations are not equal.

I can affiliate with any number of organizations that will list me at whatever rank I tell them I am, furnish me with documentation of said rank, rank certificates for my students, and organizational patches, all upon receipt of my payment. I may indeed be 'legitimate' in having earned my rank in the art or arts that I claim to have earned it in...

..or I could be a super-soke of Takiya-Moni Ryu, a pan-system ryu (you know, techniques of all arts found in one) who's MA cred is based on twenty home study courses. Or just stuff I made up.

Then there are organizations that are based entirely upon fraud. Such as guys claiming to have learned the art of the Okinawan royal court or US based organizations that issue "sokeships" to applicants who pay into the org.

Also, with organizations comes the inevitable falsification of organizational credentials, creation of new organziations (I'm not part of yours so I'll start my own and be 9th dan), and the preoccupation of rank within an organization, both on the part of students and on the part of school owners who's next rank depends on how many black belts his school churns out. Five will get you ten that he becomes a blackbelt factory in order to ascend the organization.

Organizations equal rank, structure, and maybe a specific curriculum, and possible a tournament circuit. They do not automatically equal legitimacy.

For the record, I am not anti-organization. But I am also aware that there are indeed potential pitfalls.

Daniel

Whou. That sounds creepy. What would be even more creepy is if there are actually people out there doing such things. :barf:

Nice post though. I liked what you wrote.

If you weren't part of an organization and someone questioned who you were and what you do, you would say exactly what you just did; "my senseis were students of Mr. Nishiyama who was a student of Mr. Funakoshi." You answer lies in your lineage, not that you art part of some larger association, again it is that student teacher relationship.

This makes sense too. Thanks.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Whou. That sounds creepy. What would be even more creepy is if there are actually people out there doing such things. :barf:

Nice post though. I liked what you wrote.

Sadly, there are people out there doing such things. I can think of at least five such organizations off the top of my head that do one or more of those practices. Creepy? Not so much creepy as greedy.

Or looking for an ego boost or to meet some perceived need. We recently had a member banned for falsifying credentials from two organizations, which aided him in receiving dan grades in a third. Not really sure that his motivation was financial either.

My own GM, when he went independent with his kendo and hapkido, created his own kendo and hapkido orgs. Not so that he could build an organization (he puts no effort into it and the websites for the orgs only exist because one of the instructors is a web designer with some time on his hands), but because he felt that unless his certificates have a federation name on them, nobody would take him seriously. Same reason his marquee read 'karate kendo' on the door early on, even though he taught taekwondo (KKW), hapkido and kendo (he pronounces it kumdo, but believe me, its kendo). I think he'd simplify things greatly by just putting the school logo on his certs instead. We all know its just him, unless its TKD, in which case he is a Kukkiwon 6th dan and writes KKW certs.

Daniel

 

[bluewaveschool]

The ONLY reason I'm considering it (and it's on the backburner right now) is that I want to advance beyond 2nd dan.

 

[Blade96]

Sadly, there are people out there doing such things. I can think of at least five such organizations off the top of my head that do one or more of those practices. Creepy? Not so much creepy as greedy.

Or looking for an ego boost or to meet some perceived need. We recently had a member banned for falsifying credentials from two organizations, which aided him in receiving dan grades in a third. Not really sure that his motivation was financial either.

My own GM, when he went independent with his kendo and hapkido, created his own kendo and hapkido orgs. Not so that he could build an organization (he puts no effort into it and the websites for the orgs only exist because one of the instructors is a web designer with some time on his hands), but because he felt that unless his certificates have a federation name on them, nobody would take him seriously. Same reason his marquee read 'karate kendo' on the door early on, even though he taught taekwondo (KKW), hapkido and kendo (he pronounces it kumdo, but believe me, its kendo). I think he'd simplify things greatly by just putting the school logo on his certs instead. We all know its just him, unless its TKD, in which case he is a Kukkiwon 6th dan and writes KKW certs.

Daniel

Shockin. people out there doing such things.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I don't see the point of style based organizations, the only relationship that should matter is the one between a student and their instructor.

I think it depends a lot on what you want out of your training. If the purpose is to learn to defend yourself and nothing else, then yes, one would think the quality of instruction would be paramount, not the organization from which the trainer claimed certification or approval.

However, if the training is at least in part due to a desire to learn a particular style of martial arts, and to keep that training as authentic as possible according to a particular organization, then I think it would make more sense to belong to such an organization.

Even within Isshin-Ryu, there is tremendous variation in style. Will all of those changes work in self-defense situations? I don't know, but probably, sure. But they're not all what was intended by Shimabuku Soke. Each Isshin-Ryu organization claims to cleave the closest to what he taught; but I am satisfied with the legitimacy claims of the UIKA, and so this makes sense for me to join. No disrespect intended to any other organization.

What are the benefits of an organization? Standardization? Who cares?

Well, anyone for whom standards are important, I guess.

Even in my newness to martial arts training, I see clear differences between the kata and bunkai taught by various students of various lineages. Is this important? It is to me.

So you ask 'who cares'? I care.

How many associations are big enough that if you did actually move to someplace new that there is a greater that 50% chance there is actually an instructor from that organization in place already.

Not that great, unfortunately. However, that situation won't improve if dojos and students don't join. It's a Catch-22. The NRA wasn't a power in Congress until it was. It didn't matter until it did.

Recognition? From who? The general public doesn't give a rat's *** because the name is generally meaningless and when was the last time you thought “ooh, he’s from the AAAA organization, he must be a badass?” As experienced martial artists you know the uh, “wide range” of capabilities that instructors from any particular organization can exhibit.

Only from fellow Isshin-Ryu stylists who know who Master Mitchum is (which would be all of them). His approval carries weight.

I have met several people on MT who are self-proclaimed black belts in a variety of styles. I don't know what their abilities are, but from listening to some of the advice they have given (and having seen some of their videos on YouTube (OMG!), I suspect they don't know beans about beans.

I am not suggesting that one has to be affiliated with any respected organization to become an excellent martial artist, but I do suggest that I'm more willing to listen to one who has the credentials to back up what they're saying.

I completely understand and support the use of competition based organizations for sports, that is an area where some level of standardization and organization is important. But I largely think the large associations are about money not the art. If each instructor just worried about producing quality students and instructors, the art is secure, and the need for an organization goes out the window.

I don't think that's necessarily true.

Have you ever taken part in one of those things where the class lines up and the teacher whispers a secret into the ear of the first student, who then whispers it into the ear of the second student, and so on to the last student? In the end, the 'secret' is repeated back and it has NOTHING to do with the original statement made by the teacher, usually hilariously not even close. Like that.

A student learns and at some point goes out on their own. One hopes they continue to train even as they become teachers themselves, and hopefully their own teachers continue to train, etc. But as people move, as they lose touch with their original teachers, as they develop physical challenges, and so on, they change and alter their own styles; and guess what? They teach those changes to their students. In a couple generations, what they teach has no resemblance to what was taught to the their teachers or their teacher's teachers.

I have been told of a sensei who became, shall we say, quite large in the middle. As a result, he performed his 'stack hands' with an exaggerated reach-around his large belly. I know how that is, I have to reach a bit myself. However, this man was a sensei, so I am told that one can identify his students to this day; they all perform the same movement, even though they themselves are not heavyset. Presumably they also teach this to their students now.

I have trouble keeping my feet straight when I should be in a seisan stance. I hope to cure this deficiency, but supposing that after years of being on my own without guidance from an organization that sets standards, I drift into my usual splay-footed stances? I suppose that is what I would teach, or at the very least, that is what my students would notice and emulate.

What I'm saying is that even with the best of intentions, instructors change things without meaning to. To suit their own thoughts, to suit their own imperfections, or even due to physical conditions such as being overweight or having a bad knee, etc. This gets passed on to their students, and the style begins to drift. That may not make it less effective as self-defense, but it does change it from what it was in terms of the authenticity of the style.

I am also not saying that styles can never change; but I am a student of Isshin-Ryu and that is what I wish to learn; not someone's idea about where Isshin-Ryu was wrong and so he inserted his own ideas about what should be done instead. He may well be right; and more power to him; but that's not what I want to learn. As a student, knowing that my dojo is affiliated with the UIKA means I am learning authentic Isshin-Ryu as taught by Master Mitchum, who learned it from Shimabuku Soke. This is important to me, even if it is not important in the grand scheme of things.

Is it worth $25 a year? Absolutely.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The ONLY reason I'm considering it (and it's on the backburner right now) is that I want to advance beyond 2nd dan.

I can understand that; if you desire a grade higher than what you have, you can do it one of three ways: go independent and/or start your own org. and grade yourself as you see fit, go to a diploma mill, or hold rank and advance in an established and reputable organization. Of the three, the last one is the most appropriate and the most honest.

In reality, there needs to be some level of organization in order for a dan grade to really mean anything anyway; with no larger group to define what a dan grade means, it becomes pointless and arbitrary.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I beg to differ. Sticking to one organization will give you the benefit of not having to re-invent the wheel every time you move from one place to another; so, the bennefit is that you are learning the same material in the same language, under the same cicumstances. Of course that and $3.25 will get you a mocha at a coffee stand, but some people don't want to start over.
Sean

Hi Sean,

But how many schools belong to any one organization to make that even remotely likely? Kenpo2000 has how many affiliate schools? Looking for a list and not finding one on the kenpo2000 site (and its sort of odd for an association not to list its affiliated schools btw), I'll have to extrapolate from the number of website links that are offered. There are 12 links, looks like at least 3 of those are from international schools. So lets say that only 1/4 of all Kenpo2000 schools has a website, so there are 36 affiliated North America, this is me just making up a number here.

So what are the odds that if I move away from wherever I am studying to somewhere else in the US that there is a Kenpo2000 affiliate nearby. Say you move from Spokane to the Tri-Cities, Seattle, Tacoma, Boise, Portland, or Eugene, all of the major metropolitan locations in the PNW. How many of those have a Kenpo2000 affiliate? I might be wrong, but I don't think any of them do. Even if we take the AKTS, the kenpo org with the biggest PNW presence, it only hits 4 of the 7 cities. So the benefit of an organization is that if you move the the biggest centers of population in a three state area you have between a 0 and 60% chance of not having to change your curriculum? I am not really finding that a compelling argument.

A lot depends on which art you are talking about. If you are a taekwondoist, chances are you will find a Kukkiwon school in most every area you move to. If you practice kendo, it is rare to find a non AUSKF kendo dojo in the US, though there are a few out there (I am ranked, teach, and train in one). Chances are that judo is going to be similar. Most well known arts have one or two large organizations that tend to be in most places, at least in the US. If not, I have found that most schools, barring those who's associations test for grades beyond a certain point, will honor your current grade unless the material is so radically different that you really have to start fresh.

I am sure that there are arts that do not have such a proliferation of organizations, so as I say, it really depends.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

As some have alluded at least partially to, the utility and relevance of an organization is tied in closely to the martial art.

With regard to TKD, the best reason to belong to the KKW, the largest TKD org, is if you have Olympic hopes. Beyond that, I'm not convinced there is much value although everyone talks about rank acceptance when you transfer to another KKW school. The truth is that the KKW requirements are rather sparse, so I would imagine most schools also add their own house requirements too to flesh out the curriculum, and any transfer student would have to learn those too when they switch schools. If it is just a matter of keeping your pretty shiny black belt instead of having to prove your fitness for one, I guess there might be some value there.

In judo, I understand the early black belt ranks are attained through competition, so it definitely makes sense to be part of the national governing body that promotes these tournaments for the sport.

With regard to aikido, I am a member of the United States Aikido Federation. My rank is sanctioned through them and thus the Aikikai Hombu in Japan likewise recognizes my rank. Membership also carries many seminar and other learning opportunities with renowned teachers from Japan and all over the world. To me the latter benefit is the more important reason to belong to the USAF, but if I were from one of the break-off groups instead like USU or Ki Society, I know the aikido practiced there is just as good even if some things might be slightly different.

Bill wrote a great post about organizations helping to maintain the specific characteristics of a given style. It does make sense for him to belong to his group since he wants to study what Mitchum taught. Not being super intimate with isshinryu fragmentation however, I would wonder if disciples of some of the other isshinryu groups wouldn't feel just as happy in their own worlds? I haven't seen Mr. Mitchum, but I have seen Mr. Advincula on video, and if I were decades younger and I wanted to learn isshinryu, I would definitely seek him out as I think his karate is great. I imagine Mr. Advincula's org if he has one would be a fine one to join as well.

I don't think there is a single set answer.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

As some have alluded at least partially to, the utility and relevance of an organization is tied in closely to the martial art.

With regard to TKD, the best reason to belong to the KKW, the largest TKD org, is if you have Olympic hopes. Beyond that, I'm not convinced there is much value although everyone talks about rank acceptance when you transfer to another KKW school. The truth is that the KKW requirements are rather sparse, so I would imagine most schools also add their own house requirements too to flesh out the curriculum, and any transfer student would have to learn those too when they switch schools. If it is just a matter of keeping your pretty shiny black belt instead of having to prove your fitness for one, I guess there might be some value there.

Most often, when people say that they don't want to be "starting over," "reinventing the wheel," or any of the other phrasology used in referrence to relocation, retention of rank is what they are referring to. Retain your rank and learn new techniques or different aspects of the art as taught in a new school is just fine with 99% of those who say such things. It is the idea of having to start all over with regards to rank that they are usually looking to avoid.

This is not necesarilly a pride/ego issue either. I see many people post about how noble it is to be so without ego that putting on a white belt again doesn't bother you in the least, but from a practical standpoint, it is not noble to be gouged for testing fees all over again either.

Testing fees are more often than not associated with organizations, but I can assure that independent schools can have them too (ours does). I certainly would not relish the idea of paying the ascending testing fees that are common in some arts all over again.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

Good point, Daniel. This is one of the reasons why I don't like testing fees. They serve to connect the idea of money with achieving rank or recognition. I think it's better just to roll the needed profit from testing fees directly into the tuition itself so there is no such appearance.

I am curious if anyone has ever run into a TKD school that makes a TKD student start all over again however. I've thought most TKD schools are usually generous about that.

My niece was an ITA black belt that switched to ATA. Her new school honored her own rank and just worked with her to learn the entirely different curriculum until she could test into a higher ATA rank.

And my friend who has an independent TKD school refused to let one of my karate students start with a white belt when he simultaneously enrolled there. He just gave him a roughly equivalent rank in their belt system.

Are KKW schools less generous with this because their certification is the most global and therefore carries perhaps more cachet? I know there's always talk on the TKD forum about 'skip dans', but I haven't paid any attention to how it works, if at all, if say someone was trying to transfer in from outside of the KKW system. The cynic in me thinks that if for some reason an ATA master with a profitable cluster of schools wanted to join the KKW with equivalent rank, something could be worked out.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Good point, Daniel. This is one of the reasons why I don't like testing fees. They serve to connect the idea of money with achieving rank or recognition. I think it's better just to roll the needed profit from testing fees directly into the tuition itself so there is no such appearance.

I am with you here 100%.

I am curious if anyone has ever run into a TKD school that makes a TKD student start all over again however. I've thought most TKD schools are usually generous about that.

Methinks that most schools are probably generous about it, but I also suspect that there are school owners out there that are not.

Daniel

 

[Touch Of Death]

Most often, when people say that they don't want to be "starting over," "reinventing the wheel," or any of the other phrasology used in referrence to relocation, retention of rank is what they are referring to. Retain your rank and learn new techniques or different aspects of the art as taught in a new school is just fine with 99% of those who say such things. It is the idea of having to start all over with regards to rank that they are usually looking to avoid.

This is not necesarilly a pride/ego issue either. I see many people post about how noble it is to be so without ego that putting on a white belt again doesn't bother you in the least, but from a practical standpoint, it is not noble to be gouged for testing fees all over again either.

Testing fees are more often than not associated with organizations, but I can assure that independent schools can have them too (ours does). I certainly would not relish the idea of paying the ascending testing fees that are common in some arts all over again.

Daniel

I was refering to the material and how that material is understood and imparted to the students. ie the culture.
sean

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I was refering to the material and how that material is understood and imparted to the students. ie the culture.
sean

Appreciate the clarification.

Daniel

 

[Rich Parsons]

There are some martial artists out there that are part of an organization and others that are independant. What do you feel are the pros/cons of each? Do you feel that one is better than the other?

I think Orgs offer some good things.

I like being independant and I am friends with those in different orgs.

But that is me. I expect no one else to follow or understand.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I feel I have the best of both worlds. Our club is not affiliated with any orgs, our GM runs the club the same way he has for over 35 years. We also have in excess of 4000 members and have clubs all over the place so if I ever moved location I can just walk into another of our clubs and my rank will be recognised.

 

[bluewaveschool]

We've honored rank from students that joined our class from other local schools before. Never had one with any rank last in our class though. Hmm....

 

[ralphmcpherson]

We've honored rank from students that joined our class from other local schools before. Never had one with any rank last in our class though. Hmm....

I can understand this being the case with arts such as tkd, where the term tkd is just too broad. I do tkd (not kukki tkd) and if I trained at a kukki club they would just laugh at me and tell me start over as a white belt. Yet if a kukki black belt came to our club to train Id say he would be starting over from white belt. Neither is better than the other but the term 'tkd' is just too broad these days.

 

[chrispillertkd]

I feel I have the best of both worlds. Our club is not affiliated with any orgs, our GM runs the club the same way he has for over 35 years. We also have in excess of 4000 members and have clubs all over the place so if I ever moved location I can just walk into another of our clubs and my rank will be recognised.

Out of curiosity, how is this not an "organization"?

Also, could someone clarify the difference between an organization and "independence" for me? If having thousands of members and clubs "all over the place" is being independent then what's the difference?

Pax,

Chris