There are some martial artists out there that are part of an organization and others that are independant. What do you feel are the pros/cons of each? Do you feel that one is better than the other?
Independant Or With An Organization
- Thread starter MJS
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I do not feel one way or the other, the thing I enjoy in the A.A.U. is fair competition for those of my students that enjoy this. For all others things withen my school I am an indepentdant and teach and develope my own curriculum on a daily bases. Orgs in genear are not bad but then again they are not the best either.
I have just recently joined the UIKA (http://unitedisshinryukarate.com/) and I am glad that I have done so.
I do not know of any pros/cons of this Isshin-Ryu organization versus any others, because I only have knowledge of this one. Our dojo is affiliated with this organization; sensei urges higher rank belts to join. However, it is completely voluntary. Dues are cheap at $25 per year.
All I get out of it that I am aware of is a patch for my gi and official recognition of my rank. If for any reason I were to have to find another Isshin-Ryu dojo, my rank would be respected by any other dojo that is affiliate with the UIKA. On a personal note, my membership card and certificate is signed personally by Master Mitchum. That's a rare privilege and I consider it a great honor. Master Mitchum respects the promotion to brown belt that my sensei has seen fit to award me; this means worlds to me. I hope to one day have my rank as black belt confirmed by Master Mitchum, if I should eventually prove worthy to wear the black belt.
I realize from being on MT that not all organizations are as simple and straightforward as the UIKA; I would never had know if I hadn't read it here. We don't have elaborate conferences, confabs, competitions, or other things that karateka must join and pay high fees for; and locally, my dojo charges no testing fee and $10 for a promotion to a new belt for adults. With only six belt colors, that's not a lot of outlay!!!
I recognize that there are a lot of scam organizations out there, but I am quite convinced that the UIKA is not one of them. Therefore I have joined and am proud that they will have me as a member. I certainly understand why others dislike organizations and associations that sap money from members, make demands on their money and time, jerk them around, and provide little to nothing in return. I'm glad I do not have to face that situation.
Bruno@MT
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I think it depends on what you want. If you want to learn a specific art, then you need to find a dojo / organization that can make a reasonable claim to teach that art. So for example, if I want to learn legit kenjutsu, then I need to find out a dojo that teaches said art. If they are legit, then that almost always means that it will belong to an organization that originates from the country of origin of said art. In this case that would be Japan. Otoh, Bob's kenjitsu black dragon society without any verifiable claims would be dodgy.
There are of course independents that are legit, like Chris Parkers ninjutsu organization, but they are open about their origins, and anyone willing to do the legwork can verify that what they teach is legit.
Now, if you want to compete, then you will robably want to look at how that dojo performs in the competition world, and membership to an organization is less important. And if you want self defense, then you should probably look into the experience level of the trainer.
So all in all it depends on what you want, I guess.
There are of course independents that are legit, like Chris Parkers ninjutsu organization, but they are open about their origins, and anyone willing to do the legwork can verify that what they teach is legit.
Now, if you want to compete, then you will robably want to look at how that dojo performs in the competition world, and membership to an organization is less important. And if you want self defense, then you should probably look into the experience level of the trainer.
So all in all it depends on what you want, I guess.
OP
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Personally, I could go either way, but I tend to lean more towards being part of an org. This may help with credibility. Of course, the org that you're with, should also be credible too. LOL. So, assuming that it is, simply being affiliated with someone could be a plus when it comes to potential new students.
I also think its a plus when it comes time for rank advancement and a knowledge source. If someone was not part of an org., how does the inst. continue his training? How does someone advance? Ex: An indep. Kenpo school. The teacher is a 5th degree. Where do they get their training from? Do they ever advance or do they self promote? Do they run to various Kenpo seminars or have people in for seminars and ask for a promotion?
OTOH, being on your own means that you dont have to answer to anyone. You can do your own thing, when you want, etc.
Then again, being part of an org can either be very expensive or inexpensive. Going on Bills post it sounds to me like you get alot for your buck.
I also think its a plus when it comes time for rank advancement and a knowledge source. If someone was not part of an org., how does the inst. continue his training? How does someone advance? Ex: An indep. Kenpo school. The teacher is a 5th degree. Where do they get their training from? Do they ever advance or do they self promote? Do they run to various Kenpo seminars or have people in for seminars and ask for a promotion?
OTOH, being on your own means that you dont have to answer to anyone. You can do your own thing, when you want, etc.
Then again, being part of an org can either be very expensive or inexpensive. Going on Bills post it sounds to me like you get alot for your buck.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Since I have never trained in a CMA school that was not independent I really can't answer and yet I simply do not understand the need for an organization
Bruno@MT
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No, but IIRC your arts are lineage based. And in that regard you do belong to an organization, if only from the practical pov and there are no monetary ties.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
China being based in Confucianism is big on filial piety and a CMA lineage is looked on in much the same way, and in Traditional Chinese Martial Arts a lineage is a history, not a governing body or organization. Although some of the CMA families in China today are trying to make themselves an organization (See Yang Family). But then there are still a lot of old school CMA sifu types out there that think they are being incredibly silly
I am not saying anything against Organizations; I simply do not understand the need.
Balrog
Master of Arts
I'm with the American Taekwondo Association. Although I disagree with some of the things ATA is doing, overall I stay with them because of the tremendous level of support and standardization that I get from them.
I think there is much to be gained from being part of an organization, but the organization itself should be....well, organized. There should be established guidelines and standards and procedures for promotions and one's rank history should be easily accessible, that sort of thing.
I think there is much to be gained from being part of an organization, but the organization itself should be....well, organized. There should be established guidelines and standards and procedures for promotions and one's rank history should be easily accessible, that sort of thing.
What Mr. Bill did not tell you about the UIKA is that a Lifetime Membership is only $200. $200, really ??? there are groups in Isshinryu that charge that per year. The great thing about the UIKA is the standard in which they hold there everyone. It is not just a group that takes your money and sends a Certificate. If a guy/gal has Rank issued by the UIKA, you know he/she earned it. It is a small close knit group so there is no Drama or back bitting everyone knows their place and if not Grand Master Mitchum will be glad to tell them what it is.
To me if one can find a group like the UIKA it is the way to go. on the other hand. I think it is important to not be a part of a buddy system that promotes based on money or worse friendship/"loyalty"
I train in American Karate (Goju-ryu) on a weekly bases because my Isshinryu Sensei is 5 hours away
My American Sensei is under no one. He has gotten promotions but not what he should have. He says he does not want to deal with the politics.
SO I think for me a group like the UIKA is the way to go. Great Standards, no politics, and they let you be Independent as long as you stay with their standards and they have Master Mitchum.
oaktree
Master of Arts
Personally I like Independant. I like Independant so much I only do private lessons with my teacher.
Lineage is not an organization in the sense of a governing body as Xue has said. For example: many people practice Chen Taijiquan they have a traceable linerage going back to Chen village. However not everyone belongs to any type of Chen Taijiquan organization and are pretty much independant.
I think of organizations more as a business and lineage more as passing a tradition to the next generation.
You may disagree and I welcome that.
Lineage is not an organization in the sense of a governing body as Xue has said. For example: many people practice Chen Taijiquan they have a traceable linerage going back to Chen village. However not everyone belongs to any type of Chen Taijiquan organization and are pretty much independant.
I think of organizations more as a business and lineage more as passing a tradition to the next generation.
You may disagree and I welcome that.
I don't see the point of style based organizations, the only relationship that should matter is the one between a student and their instructor.
What are the benefits of an organization? Standardization? Who cares? How many associations are big enough that if you did actually move to someplace new that there is a greater that 50% chance there is actually an instructor from that organization in place already.
Recognition? From who? The general public doesn't give a rat's *** because the name is generally meaningless and when was the last time you thought ooh, hes from the AAAA organization, he must be a badass? As experienced martial artists you know the uh, wide range of capabilities that instructors from any particular organization can exhibit.
I completely understand and support the use of competition based organizations for sports, that is an area where some level of standardization and organization is important. But I largely think the large associations are about money not the art. If each instructor just worried about producing quality students and instructors, the art is secure, and the need for an organization goes out the window.
What are the benefits of an organization? Standardization? Who cares? How many associations are big enough that if you did actually move to someplace new that there is a greater that 50% chance there is actually an instructor from that organization in place already.
Recognition? From who? The general public doesn't give a rat's *** because the name is generally meaningless and when was the last time you thought ooh, hes from the AAAA organization, he must be a badass? As experienced martial artists you know the uh, wide range of capabilities that instructors from any particular organization can exhibit.
I completely understand and support the use of competition based organizations for sports, that is an area where some level of standardization and organization is important. But I largely think the large associations are about money not the art. If each instructor just worried about producing quality students and instructors, the art is secure, and the need for an organization goes out the window.
Supra Vijai
Black Belt
This was actually something I was discussing with my Sensei and a fellow student after class last night. I get the wanting to fall "under the umbrella" and being part of a larger group. With Ninjutsu, the Bujinkan are the go to name in terms of being the most marketed etc. I train under Chris Parker who Bruno mentioned in his post and our school split off from the Bujinkan over 10 years ago. This means there is no longer a tie to Japan or more specifically to Hatsumi Sensei as that seems to be most important. Some argue that this means if I get a black belt, it won't be recognized. I really don't care to be honest. I train because I enjoy the art, have a good rapport with my sensei and am interested in what he has to say/teach. If I get a black belt (still a looooong way away!) then it will be because my Sensei who's spent the time and effort on me and watched me through my journey in the art thinks I've earnt it and that's the most important thing IMO, plus I'll still know all the same techniques anyway so I see no major benefit of not being independant
I am just fine with an independent, and my hapkido and kendo were both through an independent school (though my GM created a kendo and a hapkido org, they essentially consist of his two schools, thus I'm essentially an independent).
Pros are that there is little in the way of organizational politics and I have instant access to the GM.
Cons are that our kendo tournament circuit is teeny tiny! Really no con for being an indy HKD school, as I am past the point in my life where I feel that I need my rank to be recognized outside of where I teach and train.
Pros of an organization in general are fairly obvious: rank portability, tournament circuit (for arts to which that would apply), possible certification tracking, varying levels of support for member schools, and a feeling of belonging. Also, organizations are well suited to spreading the art as well. Arts with a strong competitive or sportive element are really the ones that benefit the most from an organization, kendo, taekwondo, and judo all being good examples.
Cons are sometimes costs, corruption, organizational politics (look at the TKD section if you are need examples) and the fact that an organization tends to, by its very nature, feed into the preoccupation that people seem to have with rank.
Which is better? Personally, I lean towards the independent, but that is just me. Really, it depends on the student and what they are looking for.
Also, it really depends on the organization. All orgs are not equal. Some maintain a very high level of integrity while others are mired in corruption and/or political turmoil. Still others are built for the sole purpose of generating profit and do little to nothing for their members. Often, people assume that an organization somehow vets its instructors, which most often is not the case, thus there is often a perception of quality that is not always matched by reality.
An independent may offer greater integrity an less expense, or an independent could be an upstart crackpot with little to no qualifications to teach.
And while many view independents as being non commerical, that is not always true. I can tell you that Korean Martial Arts Inc. where I have trained is essentially an independent school (as far as kendo and hapkido go) but it is still a commercial school and is not exactly cheap. KMA has contracts and ascending test fees. Now, I have been pleased with the instruction and am overall happy with the school, but it is still a commercial school.
I teach outside of KMA as an independent, and am quite inexpensive. I do not view my independent status as making me better than an affiliated instructor, however, though it does afford me a level of freedom that an affiliated instructor or school may not have.
Daniel
I beg to differ. Sticking to one organization will give you the benefit of not having to re-invent the wheel every time you move from one place to another; so, the bennefit is that you are learning the same material in the same language, under the same cicumstances. Of course that and $3.25 will get you a mocha at a coffee stand, but some people don't want to start over.
Sean
Hi Sean,
But how many schools belong to any one organization to make that even remotely likely? Kenpo2000 has how many affiliate schools? Looking for a list and not finding one on the kenpo2000 site (and its sort of odd for an association not to list its affiliated schools btw), I'll have to extrapolate from the number of website links that are offered. There are 12 links, looks like at least 3 of those are from international schools. So lets say that only 1/4 of all Kenpo2000 schools has a website, so there are 36 affiliated North America, this is me just making up a number here.
So what are the odds that if I move away from wherever I am studying to somewhere else in the US that there is a Kenpo2000 affiliate nearby. Say you move from Spokane to the Tri-Cities, Seattle, Tacoma, Boise, Portland, or Eugene, all of the major metropolitan locations in the PNW. How many of those have a Kenpo2000 affiliate? I might be wrong, but I don't think any of them do. Even if we take the AKTS, the kenpo org with the biggest PNW presence, it only hits 4 of the 7 cities. So the benefit of an organization is that if you move the the biggest centers of population in a three state area you have between a 0 and 60% chance of not having to change your curriculum? I am not really finding that a compelling argument.
Noah_Legel
Blue Belt
I have only ever purchased a membership with one organization, and that was the USJF (United States Judo Federation) and that was just for tournament insurance purposes--I earned my green belt in Judo in Illinois under my instructor who was ranked by the USJA, but ranked students independent of any organization, so I started over in rank back at white belt in that situation.
When I practiced Shuri-Ryu back in Illinois I was not part of an organization except transitively because my instructor was a member of the International Shuri-Ryu Association, so I had no dues or anything but my rank in Shuri-Ryu is recognized by every dojo that is a member of the ISA, which is just about every single one. As it stands I am taking Kobayashi Shorin-Ryu (Shorinkan) and don't currently have a rank in it, but my Sensei is teaching me as he feels is appropriate for someone who has reached brown belt in another style and I appreciate that, and again when I have rank I will be recognized by the Shorinkan transitively just like it was in Shuri-Ryu, at least that's how I've come to understand it.
I don't feel that there is a need for organizations, but there is certainly a want for them. People want to be included and accepted by a larger group and have their accomplishments affirmed by that group--that's part of human nature. If you want to be a member of an organization, that's fine, but I personally find naturally inclusive organizations to be a bit better for me than the ones that I have to pay.
When I practiced Shuri-Ryu back in Illinois I was not part of an organization except transitively because my instructor was a member of the International Shuri-Ryu Association, so I had no dues or anything but my rank in Shuri-Ryu is recognized by every dojo that is a member of the ISA, which is just about every single one. As it stands I am taking Kobayashi Shorin-Ryu (Shorinkan) and don't currently have a rank in it, but my Sensei is teaching me as he feels is appropriate for someone who has reached brown belt in another style and I appreciate that, and again when I have rank I will be recognized by the Shorinkan transitively just like it was in Shuri-Ryu, at least that's how I've come to understand it.
I don't feel that there is a need for organizations, but there is certainly a want for them. People want to be included and accepted by a larger group and have their accomplishments affirmed by that group--that's part of human nature. If you want to be a member of an organization, that's fine, but I personally find naturally inclusive organizations to be a bit better for me than the ones that I have to pay.
Blade96
Senior Master
Organization = legitimacy.
I do not know of any cons.
and yes we belong to one. It traces roots all the way back to funakoshi. My senseis were students of Mr Nishiyama who were student of Mr Funakoshi.
I do not know of any cons.
and yes we belong to one. It traces roots all the way back to funakoshi. My senseis were students of Mr Nishiyama who were student of Mr Funakoshi.
I'd say verifiable lineage may equal legitimacy, and perhaps within a specific art, an organization may indeed equal legitimacy (given the caliber of the organization you are a part of, it is no wonder you would hold organizations in esteem).Organization = legitimacy.
I do not know of any cons.
and yes we belong to one. It traces roots all the way back to funakoshi. My senseis were students of Mr Nishiyama who were student of Mr Funakoshi.
But, with respect, I must disagree with you in saying so without any qualifiers. As I stated previously, all organizations are not equal.
I can affiliate with any number of organizations that will list me at whatever rank I tell them I am, furnish me with documentation of said rank, rank certificates for my students, and organizational patches, all upon receipt of my payment. I may indeed be 'legitimate' in having earned my rank in the art or arts that I claim to have earned it in...
..or I could be a super-soke of Takiya-Moni Ryu, a pan-system ryu (you know, techniques of all arts found in one) who's MA cred is based on twenty home study courses. Or just stuff I made up.
Then there are organizations that are based entirely upon fraud. Such as guys claiming to have learned the art of the Okinawan royal court or US based organizations that issue "sokeships" to applicants who pay into the org.
Also, with organizations comes the inevitable falsification of organizational credentials, creation of new organziations (I'm not part of yours so I'll start my own and be 9th dan), and the preoccupation of rank within an organization, both on the part of students and on the part of school owners who's next rank depends on how many black belts his school churns out. Five will get you ten that he becomes a blackbelt factory in order to ascend the organization.
Organizations equal rank, structure, and maybe a specific curriculum, and possible a tournament circuit. They do not automatically equal legitimacy.
For the record, I am not anti-organization. But I am also aware that there are indeed potential pitfalls.
Daniel
