In these strange times....

[jobo]

And how are they not. Do you know of Any hospital or care facility that is Not working at full capacity in regards to the virus?
The last time I checked all governments are fresh out of magic wands to make this all go away.

i was replying to your point that people shouldn't cry for the government to take care of them

of course they should expect the government to do exactly that, particularly for financial hardships over and above the more obvious thing of having sufficient ventilators, which it seem very few governments have managed

you seem big on individuals having a '' put by fund'' for emergencies, the government should also have such,( and ventilators) this pandemic is far from an unforeseen event, its been predicted and modelled for decades

we should be very very angry that they are not better prepared

 

[dvcochran]

It's important to remember that having this buffer is only possible if you're making enough to have anything extra after paying for little trivial things like a roof and food. A large portion of the US can't safe because they literally would have to choose between saving or eating.

I first clicked dislike to your post then removed it. I do not dislike it; I just don't agree with it in conception.

I suppose much of it is cultural and in regards to nurture. I got my first real paycheck when I was 14. From that day forward (actually before in regards to allowance) it was drilled into me and my siblings that at least 20% of every paycheck went into savings. It was Always the first thing you did. We were taught the act of transaction and how banking/S&L/credit unions are your ally, not an enemy. I created a relationship with the people inside our banking establishments and became more than just a number. I made my first loan without a co-signer at age 16. It was for $500 on a 90 day note. I held the $500 and paid the note off with money I earned, then put the $500 back into my savings. Each sibling done this three times, incrementally increasing the amount up to $5,000 before we were 18. This was an excellent way to establish credit. I had never even heard of a credit card at this point.

***Side note: we do not use credit cards in our personal finances. I use them only in my business affairs for making purchases from companies I don't have purchase order accounts set up with.

When I turned 18 I borrowed $200,000, without a co-signer, to purchase our family farm and was able to pay it off in 13 years, all the while putting at least 20% into different forms of savings/investments.

It is all about what you see as relevant and not being short sighted. Not living in the minute which is what a Lot of people in the last few generations have been doing. They are not concerned about hardship because they have never felt it. In such, oblivious to it until something like this virus happens.

Money is a habit/drug/asset/nemesis/ally/enemy. It is all in what you do with it. It is real and tangible but not physically capable of doing anything by itself. It takes our own personal intervention before it can do anything.
In other words, it is a tool that we all need to learn how to use to our benefit.
In this regard, it has a direct relationship to work/output. Assessing the value of what we do has a direct relation to output. Sometimes this simply means doing more of what we are already doing; much like @JR137 has been describing in his recent posts. Sometimes it means evaluating our time utilization and realizing what we are doing (all things) are creating an unbalanced equation. This should allow us to see what/where we need to change.

 

[dvcochran]

i was replying to your point that people shouldn't cry for the government to take care of them

of course they should expect the government to do exactly that, particularly for financial hardships over and above the more obvious thing of having sufficient ventilators, which it seem very few governments have managed

you seem big on individuals having a '' put by fund'' for emergencies, the government should also have such,( and ventilators) this pandemic is far from an unforeseen event, its been predicted and modelled for decades

we should be very very angry that they are not better prepared

It is not an issue of money. It is a issue of manufacturing capability. The world has NEVER needed this many ventilators. What did you think? They were supposed to be setting around in warehouses? How many? Whose warehouses? Who pays for them to be produced yet not consumed? You are thinking very small.
Companies of all types are scrambling to make conversions to produce PPE. We just finished 2 such projects. It is testing the limits of government and free enterprise.

 

[jobo]

I first clicked dislike to your post then removed it. I do not dislike it; I just don't agree with it in conception.

I suppose much of it is cultural and in regards to nurture. I got my first real paycheck when I was 14. From that day forward (actually before in regards to allowance) it was drilled into me and my siblings that at least 20% of every paycheck went into savings. It was Always the first thing you did. We were taught the act of transaction and how banking/S&L/credit unions are your ally, not an enemy. I created a relationship with the people inside our banking establishments and became more than just a number. I made my first loan without a co-signer at age 16. It was for $500 on a 90 day note. I held the $500 and paid the note off with money I earned, then put the $500 back into my savings. Each sibling done this three times, incrementally increasing the amount up to $5,000 before we were 18. This was an excellent way to establish credit. I had never even heard of a credit card at this point.

***Side note: we do not use credit cards in our personal finances. I use them only in my business affairs for making purchases from companies I don't have purchase order accounts set up with.

When I turned 18 I borrowed $200,000, without a co-signer, to purchase our family farm and was able to pay it off in 13 years, all the while putting at least 20% into different forms of savings/investments.

It is all about what you see as relevant and not being short sighted. Not living in the minute which is what a Lot of people in the last few generations have been doing. They are not concerned about hardship because they have never felt it. In such, oblivious to it until something like this virus happens.

Money is a habit/drug/asset/nemesis/ally/enemy. It is all in what you do with it. It is real and tangible but not physically capable of doing anything by itself. It takes our own personal intervention before it can do anything.
In other words, it is a tool that we all need to learn how to use to our benefit.
In this regard, it has a direct relationship to work/output. Assessing the value of what we do has a direct relation to output. Sometimes this simply means doing more of what we are already doing; much like @JR137 has been describing in his recent posts. Sometimes it means evaluating our time utilization and realizing what we are doing (all things) are creating an unbalanced equation. This should allow us to see what/where we need to change.

but you are in your state of self justification, ignoring a simple point, which is, you can only have rich people if you also have poor people, the whole capitalised system is based on a pyramid of wealth

or to simplify it for you, there is only so much wealth to go round, if you have more then someone else has to have less, if you have a considerable amount someone else ( actually lot of people) has to have very little


if your hording wealth you cant complain that other people dont have enough money to put by, as its largely your fault

 

[jobo]

It is not an issue of money. It is a issue of manufacturing capability. The world has NEVER needed this many ventilators. What did you think? They were supposed to be setting around in warehouses? How many? Whose warehouses? Who pays for them to be produced yet not consumed? You are thinking very small.
Companies of all types are scrambling to make conversions to produce PPE. We just finished 2 such projects. It is testing the limits of government and free enterprise.

well yes, thats exactly what i think, events that are not only predictable, but have been predicted so often that they become inevitability s, like this pandemic should have been prepared for, who should pay ? well the people of the country, who pay for all government expenditure

 

[JR 137]

And how are they not. Do you know of Any hospital or care facility that is Not working at full capacity in regards to the virus?
The last time I checked all governments are fresh out of magic wands to make this all go away.

This reminds of something a guy who I really can’t say enough good things about and I admire the hell out of said...

I was working football practice one day. 2 assistant coaches were standing off to the side complaining about a situation. They went on for a solid couple minutes. The head coach who was in earshot of them turns around and says “I’ve heard a ton of complaining from you two, and not a single solution. Either try to come up with an idea or keep your mouths shut.”

No one knows the extent of what’s going on behind the scenes. So many “what if” situations are being discussed, and it’s all about coming up with policies that are effective, reasonable, possible to implement, etc. For every hour they’re spending briefing us, I’m sure they’re spending at least 10 hours analyzing and coming up with a plan. And today’s plan will be changed for unforeseen circumstances that pop up tomorrow. Or a highly unlikely scenario happens and sends everyone back to the old drawing board.

Then add a panel of experts in their respective fields who most likely don’t agree on everything and have conflicting information. Aside from all of this current stuff, how many experts agreed on the economy beforehand? Healthcare system? And so on.

Are they perfect? Nope. Are they trying to balance all the risks and rewards to come up with a realistic solution? I’m quite confident they are. I agree with some solutions and disagree with others.

People love to point out flaws. Like they’re experts and have sat in on the meetings and heard all the different and conflicting advice given. Like one person or group is supposed to come up with and/or stop a worldwide crisis. Sure. And I’ve got a bridge for sale in Brooklyn.

And this isn’t pro-Trump speaking. I felt the same way when everyone criticized Obama during the financial crisis back then. While some solutions seem nonsensical in any situation, we haven’t heard all the options on the table and can’t possibly say the decisions made were without any thought or deliberately not following logical and sound expert advice.

Everyone here, me included, has most likely less than 1% of the real facts at hand. Yet everyone’s got something to criticize. Free speech in its finest.

 

[Steve]

I first clicked dislike to your post then removed it. I do not dislike it; I just don't agree with it in conception.

I suppose much of it is cultural and in regards to nurture. I got my first real paycheck when I was 14. From that day forward (actually before in regards to allowance) it was drilled into me and my siblings that at least 20% of every paycheck went into savings. It was Always the first thing you did. We were taught the act of transaction and how banking/S&L/credit unions are your ally, not an enemy. I created a relationship with the people inside our banking establishments and became more than just a number. I made my first loan without a co-signer at age 16. It was for $500 on a 90 day note. I held the $500 and paid the note off with money I earned, then put the $500 back into my savings. Each sibling done this three times, incrementally increasing the amount up to $5,000 before we were 18. This was an excellent way to establish credit. I had never even heard of a credit card at this point.

***Side note: we do not use credit cards in our personal finances. I use them only in my business affairs for making purchases from companies I don't have purchase order accounts set up with.

When I turned 18 I borrowed $200,000, without a co-signer, to purchase our family farm and was able to pay it off in 13 years, all the while putting at least 20% into different forms of savings/investments.

It is all about what you see as relevant and not being short sighted. Not living in the minute which is what a Lot of people in the last few generations have been doing. They are not concerned about hardship because they have never felt it. In such, oblivious to it until something like this virus happens.

Money is a habit/drug/asset/nemesis/ally/enemy. It is all in what you do with it. It is real and tangible but not physically capable of doing anything by itself. It takes our own personal intervention before it can do anything.
In other words, it is a tool that we all need to learn how to use to our benefit.
In this regard, it has a direct relationship to work/output. Assessing the value of what we do has a direct relation to output. Sometimes this simply means doing more of what we are already doing; much like @JR137 has been describing in his recent posts. Sometimes it means evaluating our time utilization and realizing what we are doing (all things) are creating an unbalanced equation. This should allow us to see what/where we need to change.

When these good habits were drilled into you, were they drilled into you by someone who had money or someone who had never had money? Did you work to support your family at 14, or were you allowed to keep your entire paycheck? Did you have a roof over your head? Food in your belly?

I agree with the value of the lessons you learned, but find it galling that you don't recognize how lucky you were. I think it's really great that you learned the lessons you could, but dude.

 

[jobo]

This reminds of something a guy who I really can’t say enough good things about and I admire the hell out of said...

I was working football practice one day. 2 assistant coaches were standing off to the side complaining about a situation. They went on for a solid couple minutes. The head coach who was in earshot of them turns around and says “I’ve heard a ton of complaining from you two, and not a single solution. Either try to come up with an idea or keep your mouths shut.”

No one knows the extent of what’s going on behind the scenes. So many “what if” situations are being discussed, and it’s all about coming up with policies that are effective, reasonable, possible to implement, etc. For every hour they’re spending briefing us, I’m sure they’re spending at least 10 hours analyzing and coming up with a plan. And today’s plan will be changed for unforeseen circumstances that pop up tomorrow. Or a highly unlikely scenario happens and sends everyone back to the old drawing board.

Then add a panel of experts in their respective fields who most likely don’t agree on everything and have conflicting information. Aside from all of this current stuff, how many experts agreed on the economy beforehand? Healthcare system? And so on.

Are they perfect? Nope. Are they trying to balance all the risks and rewards to come up with a realistic solution? I’m quite confident they are. I agree with some solutions and disagree with others.

People love to point out flaws. Like they’re experts and have sat in on the meetings and heard all the different and conflicting advice given. Like one person or group is supposed to come up with and/or stop a worldwide crisis. Sure. And I’ve got a bridge for sale in Brooklyn.

And this isn’t pro-Trump speaking. I felt the same way when everyone criticized Obama during the financial crisis back then. While some solutions seem nonsensical in any situation, we haven’t heard all the options on the table and can’t possibly say the decisions made were without any thought or deliberately not following logical and sound expert advice.

Everyone here, me included, has most likely less than 1% of the real facts at hand. Yet everyone’s got something to criticize. Free speech in its finest.

i think your naive if you think governments are doing their best for anything else but their own self interest .

there are enormous differences between nation as to whats being done, they all have the same data and the same projections, but the reaction is completely different. that they have considerably different priorities is as far as i can see the only explanation for that

china locked down a whole city and left people to die, which to be fair does seem to have worked, if you ignore the rumoured death toll rather than the official one

India has locked down the whole country leaving people to starve, Indian panic buyer are feeling really smug about now

the UK has us more or less under house arrest, with eye watering fines for those that wont comply

and the states have done really very little in comparison


now only one of those can be correct and the others are either massively over or under reacting, if its OUR best interests they are seeking

 

[Tez3]

I agree with the value of the lessons you learned, but find it galling that you don't recognize how lucky you were.

also lucky in that he wanted to do something that would give a financial profit. We also need teachers, scientists, nurses, military, medical researchers, professors, etc etc. None of these professions make a profit in the way that a business can. We need many people to work to provide services for all. The problem is many of these jobs are low paid and people cannot afford to save, they live month to month. Castigating them for not earning enough is wrong, they deserve good pay for the jobs they do that enables others to earn their money.

It is testing the limits of government and free enterprise.

Actually it's not, there are plenty of people who can organise such things, they can easily supply an invasion of another country. And it's not 'free enterprise' that is doing the job, it's altruism and the willingness of countries to help each other in time of need.

Mercedes F1 team helps create breathing aid to keep coronavirus patients out of intensive care

China sends doctors and masks overseas as domestic coronavirus infections drop


Airline staff to sign up as NHS volunteers during coronavirus pandemic

 

[jobo]

also lucky in that he wanted to do something that would give a financial profit. We also need teachers, scientists, nurses, military, medical researchers, professors, etc etc. None of these professions make a profit in the way that a business can. We need many people to work to provide services for all. The problem is many of these jobs are low paid and people cannot afford to save, they live month to month. Castigating them for not earning enough is wrong, they deserve good pay for the jobs they do that enables others to earn their money.




Actually it's not, there are plenty of people who can organise such things, they can easily supply an invasion of another country. And it's not 'free enterprise' that is doing the job, it's altruism and the willingness of countries to help each other in time of need.

Mercedes F1 team helps create breathing aid to keep coronavirus patients out of intensive care

China sends doctors and masks overseas as domestic coronavirus infections drop


Airline staff to sign up as NHS volunteers during coronavirus pandemic

to be honest they should give much of the problem to the F1 teams to sort out, they do employ some of the cleverest people in the world, either that or nasa

its times like this were being run by a meritocracy of managers, engineers and logistics people would have an advantage over the ''aristocracy'' that runs most of the world

 

[JR 137]

i think your naive if you think governments are doing their best for anything else but their own self interest .

there are enormous differences between nation as to whats being done, they all have the same data and the same projections, but the reaction is completely different. that they have considerably different priorities is as far as i can see the only explanation for that

china locked down a whole city and left people to die, which to be fair does seem to have worked, if you ignore the rumoured death toll rather than the official one

India has locked down the whole country leaving people to starve, Indian panic buyer are feeling really smug about now

the UK has us more or less under house arrest, with eye watering fines for those that wont comply

and the states have done really very little in comparison


now only one of those can be correct and the others are either massively over or under reacting, if its OUR best interests they are seeking

Every locale’s situation is different, therefore one approach throughout the world is absurd. You’re naive if you think what’s going to work in Bozeman, Montana is going to work in NYC; what’s going to work in Calcutta is going to work in Mogadishu; what’s going to work in London is going to work in Tibet. And on and on.

You’re also naive if you think everyone is out to get you and no politician has anyone’s interest in heart other than their own.

 

[jobo]

Every locale’s situation is different, therefore one approach throughout the world is absurd. You’re naive if you think what’s going to work in Bozeman, Montana is going to work in NYC; what’s going to work in Calcutta is going to work in Mogadishu; what’s going to work in London is going to work in Tibet. And on and on.

You’re also naive if you think everyone is out to get you and no politician has anyone’s interest in heart other than their own.

well there seems almost no intrinsic difference between, between populas cities in those counties, non at all,

they all have similar density and similar social structures and then no difference between a small town in Montana and one in Lancashire england, and Blackburn Lancashire has exactly the same restrictions as the mega city that is london, so clear our government disagee, which then just highlights the different approach which was my point

tibet might be an out lyer, but cities all the countries mentioned have more in common than they have differences and the differences between say new york and london are minuscule in the extreme, like you drive on the other side of the road and have yellow taxis, that sort of thing

 

[Steve]

Well, I've never been to Lancashire England, but I would go out on a limb that it is nothing like Bozeman, MO.

 

[jobo]

Well, I've never been to Lancashire England, but I would go out on a limb that it is nothing like Bozeman, MO.

tell me 5 notable things about bozeman ( that effect the virus spread) and we can compare

 

[dvcochran]

When these good habits were drilled into you, were they drilled into you by someone who had money or someone who had never had money? Did you work to support your family at 14, or were you allowed to keep your entire paycheck? Did you have a roof over your head? Food in your belly?

I agree with the value of the lessons you learned, but find it galling that you don't recognize how lucky you were. I think it's really great that you learned the lessons you could, but dude.

To be very clear that was not bragging. Yes, we grew up with a good roof over head. The majority of our food we either raised or grew. We were NOT well off by any means. Both parents worked. As the youngest child I wore a lot of well worn hand-me-downs. I never translated that, or any part of my childhood as bad. It just was the norm.
When I got my first job my “allowance” reversed and I gave $10 back to my father every week. “Room & board” he would always say. All 4 siblings did until you moved out. It was never hateful or resented. It is things like this that engrained good money habits in all of us.
Do I get short with people who make lame *** excuses and are not financially prepared? Yes. Do I feel the least bit bad about it? No.
I am very sorry for the people going through the fire right now. I hope it invokes a sense of urgency that they must get their affairs in better order.
So Dude how is this a bad thing?

 

[dvcochran]

but you are in your state of self justification, ignoring a simple point, which is, you can only have rich people if you also have poor people, the whole capitalised system is based on a pyramid of wealth

or to simplify it for you, there is only so much wealth to go round, if you have more then someone else has to have less, if you have a considerable amount someone else ( actually lot of people) has to have very little


if your hording wealth you cant complain that other people dont have enough money to put by, as its largely your fault

That is absurd beyond any reason.

 

[jobo]

To be very clear that was not bragging. Yes, we grew up with a good roof over head. The majority of our food we either raised or grew. We were NOT well off by any means. Both parents worked. As the youngest child I wore a lot of well worn hand-me-downs. I never translated that, or any part of my childhood as bad. It just was the norm.
When I got my first job my “allowance” reversed and I gave $10 back to my father every week. “Room & board” he would always say. All 4 siblings did until you moved out. It was never hateful or resented. It is things like this that engrained good money habits in all of us.
Do I get short with people who make lame *** excuses and are not financially prepared? Yes. Do I feel the least bit bad about it? No.
I am very sorry for the people going through the fire right now. I hope it invokes a sense of urgency that they must get their affairs in better order.
So Dude how is this a bad thing?

its only '' bad'' as your being judgemental, self satisfied and sanctimonious, which i suspect you cant help, so not really your fault,

what is BAD , is i get the impression that your less than willing to part with some of your wealth to help them out.

now im not a practising christian, but even i know thats in the great book, so perhaps add hypocrite to the list ?

 

[Steve]

tell me 5 notable things about bozeman ( that effect the virus spread) and we can compare

Well, just off the top of my head, Bozeman, MO is a town and Lancashire is a county.

With a few minutes research, I looked this up, which seems relevant.
Bozeman is in Gallatin County, MO, which is over twice the area of Lancashire county (2600 sq miles vs about 1200 sq miles). But is significantly less populous.

Gallatin County has about 90k people, with about half in the town of Bozeman. So, the population density of Bozeman (the 19 square mile town) is about 1900 people per sq. mile. Gallatin County is just a hair over 80 people per sq. mile.

Lancashire County is somewhere around 1.5 million people, and about 4k people per square mile.

If you are interested in other notable things, I recommend you look at income levels and where that comes from, access to healthcare, number of guns... lots of notable things you could easily research. When you're done, maybe you can share a report with the rest of class.

 

[jobo]

Well, just off the top of my head, Bozeman, MO is a town and Lancashire is a county.

With a few minutes research, I looked this up, which seems relevant.
Bozeman is in Gallatin County, MO, which is over twice the area of Lancashire county (2600 sq miles vs about 1200 sq miles). But is significantly less populous.

Gallatin County has about 90k people, with about half in the town of Bozeman. So, the population density of Bozeman (the 19 square mile town) is about 1900 people per sq. mile. Gallatin County is just a hair over 80 people per sq. mile.

Lancashire County is somewhere around 1.5 million people, and about 4k people per square mile.

If you are interested in other notable things, I recommend you look at income levels and where that comes from, access to healthcare, number of guns... lots of notable things you could easily research. When you're done, maybe you can share a report with the rest of class.

i said Blackburn Lancashire that a smallish town in the county of Lancashire ????

 

[Steve]

To be very clear that was not bragging. Yes, we grew up with a good roof over head. The majority of our food we either raised or grew. We were NOT well off by any means. Both parents worked. As the youngest child I wore a lot of well worn hand-me-downs. I never translated that, or any part of my childhood as bad. It just was the norm.
When I got my first job my “allowance” reversed and I gave $10 back to my father every week. “Room & board” he would always say. All 4 siblings did until you moved out. It was never hateful or resented. It is things like this that engrained good money habits in all of us.
Do I get short with people who make lame *** excuses and are not financially prepared? Yes. Do I feel the least bit bad about it? No.
I am very sorry for the people going through the fire right now. I hope it invokes a sense of urgency that they must get their affairs in better order.
So Dude how is this a bad thing?

I didn't see it as bragging. I see it as lacking awareness.