Improving Your Kenpo

[MJS]

Point sparring may be overdone, but its an important ingredient.
Sean

I disagree. I think sparring is crucial, but from everything I've learned about fighting, about behavior, about motor learning, and physical education, point sparring is at best a useless but entertaining game of tag.

I do spar, and did point spar, and it took quite a bit of 'retraining' to get past it. That doesn't mean you need to brawl aimlessly, but successful transfer of skills needs a much better approximation than 'tag'.

I've done both point and continuous, but I focus more on the continuous. Point sparring isnt necessarily all bad, but if you're not careful, it can IMO, develop bad habits. People tend to rely on a few techniques, and if they make contact, the match is stopped, and restarted. I've seen point matches won by nothing more than someone leaping at the other person with a backfist to the head. But thats it. No counter, no pressure from the other person. Now, transfer that same techinque to continuous sparring, and you will be in for a surprise.

But hey, to each his own. Everyones goals are different. For me, my goals are best met with continuous. My footwork, punches, kicks and overall technique gets more of a workout that way. I can also include close range strikes as well as clinch work.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I disagree. I think sparring is crucial, but from everything I've learned about fighting, about behavior, about motor learning, and physical education, point sparring is at best a useless but entertaining game of tag.

I do spar, and did point spar, and it took quite a bit of 'retraining' to get past it. That doesn't mean you need to brawl aimlessly, but successful transfer of skills needs a much better approximation than 'tag'.

So being first is unimportant? Try point sparing with a live blade. You need to look up the term "useless".
Sean

 

[Matt]

So being first is unimportant? Try point sparing with a live blade. You need to look up the term "useless".
Sean

If the first shot is to my pinky or the back of my live hand because the person was rewarded for points and never practiced any finishes, and my counter is to their throat, then yes, being first is unimportant. Live blade sparring is not a particularly good example as point sparring folk wouldn't do that either.

Consider instead a 'goal based' spar where you train effective finishes and evaluate the minor cuts on the way in. If you train to 'get that first quick cut' and stop, you are training to be killed.

 

[Touch Of Death]

If the first shot is to my pinky or the back of my live hand because the person was rewarded for points and never practiced any finishes, and my counter is to their throat, then yes, being first is unimportant. Live blade sparring is not a particularly good example as point sparring folk wouldn't do that either.

Consider instead a 'goal based' spar where you train effective finishes and evaluate the minor cuts on the way in. If you train to 'get that first quick cut' and stop, you are training to be killed.

Defanging is crap; got it.
Sean

 

[Matt]

Defanging is crap; got it.
Sean

Defanging my live hand certainly is. Defanging my blade hand? Maybe it's a viable strategy, but it's not the end of the encounter. It's one tool, and I don't think it's a really high percentage / high value tool to base an encounter on.

It's revered in 'dueling arts', and I've spent time 'dueling' with some Pekiti Tirsia friends, but it's pretty absent in their 'self-defense' portions. I don't have a definitive answer for you that I can present, other than they didn't do it too much except when sparring.

Besides, if you're going to train 'defanging' why would you use point sparring to do it. Why not just get the training blades out and work defanging?

______
Edit - hey my 400th post. I'm a brown belt. Whee!

 

[marlon]

it is not kempo but George P Alland always teaches disarms. In fact he says it is one of the chief complaints he get when he or his students 'spar' with other kali people..."you / he took my weapon!!"... the hidden message is "hey, no fair" and he teaches people to train with real blades and live, i worked with him for a few hours...actually more like he taught and drilled me for a few hours and then showed me how much i did not get the next day (it was fantastic)...this guy is all about teaching and being authentic and he lets you know when the crap you tried can get you killed
Just some thoughts

Respectfully,
Marlon

 

[Matt]

it is not kempo but George P Alland always teaches disarms. In fact he says it is one of the chief complaints he get when he or his students 'spar' with other kali people..."you / he took my weapon!!"... the hidden message is "hey, no fair" and he teaches people to train with real blades and live, i worked with him for a few hours...actually more like he taught and drilled me for a few hours and then showed me how much i did not get the next day (it was fantastic)...this guy is all about teaching and being authentic and he lets you know when the crap you tried can get you killed
Just some thoughts

Respectfully,
Marlon

I think disarms are an integral part of that kind of training, and if they present themselves, then by all means take them. I think that's a slightly different issue, unless I'm misunderstanding T.O.D.

If I'm interpreting his point correctly (and definitely feel free to straighten me out, I don't want to put words in your mouth), the quick in- quick out / non-commitment style of fighting favored in point sparring builds effective speed which can then be used in knife v. knife duels for 'defanging', i.e. damaging the weapon hand as to make it non-functional. Additionally, 'defanging' is a fundamentally good strategy for weapon v. weapon encounters.

This is slightly different from a 'disarm' which to me constitutes removal of the weapon from the attacker by various means during a counter.

I feel that defanging plays the best role in an asymmetrical weapon encounter (stick v knife) as you can take advantage of your strength (range) hopefully neutralizing his advantage (ouch pointy). For run of the mill uses, I don't think it is a strategy to base my response on.

For knife on knife, I would tend to think that any minor target damage (defanging, outside of forearm, etc.) would only be a transitional move on the way to a major target with the hopes of avoiding a drawn out duel.

 

[marlon]

Hi Matt,
it is just something that came to mind when i read the post. i feel that the point sparring defanging that you mentioned seems pretty non functional, but disarms are part of the basics as long as you do not get overly focused on the pointy part (weapon) and forget the attacker. Greg P Alland made convincing arguements that a little difference can make all the difference in the moment

respectfully,
Marlon

 

[MJS]

Defanging is crap; got it.
Sean

Sean, can you expand on this a little more please?

Mike

 

[Touch Of Death]

Sean, can you expand on this a little more please?

Mike

Any first contact will effect the timing of your opponent. Defanging isn't just injuring the hand of a weilding knife attacker. Its drawing first blood. In a knife battle some people just can't help but be consumed by the fact that they are bleeding and then compound the fact that even though they might not feel it yet, there hand can't hold the knife as well and perhaps its getting slippery. With that, even successfull opening with bad technique can lead to opportunities for good technique. In fact all kenpo techs are based on minor, minor, major timing set. Defanging is built into the system.
Sean

 

[Matt]

Any first contact will effect the timing of your opponent. Defanging isn't just injuring the hand of a weilding knife attacker. Its drawing first blood.

Ohhhh, that's a bit broader than I was thinking. Thanks for expanding.

In a knife battle some people just can't help but be consumed by the fact that they are bleeding and then compound the fact that even though they might not feel it yet, there hand can't hold the knife as well and perhaps its getting slippery. With that, even successfull opening with bad technique can lead to opportunities for good technique.

Okay, I think this is a valid idea, but I disagree with the premise that point sparring will help with this. I'll expand a bit.

In fact all kenpo techs are based on minor, minor, major timing set. Defanging is built into the system.
Sean

I absolutely agree here, which is why I hold point sparring in such low esteem. First, many traditional 'defanging' targets are 'pointless' in point sparring. You are expected to bypass minor targets and are often forbidden to do much to manipulate or control them. So what happens are 'first' shots that leave you open for 'second' shots that are fatal, but don't count because you were 'first'. If it somehow rewarded 'firsts' that were followed by another minor and a major, then it might be useful. Essentially, it's just training you not to use the defanging built into the techniques that you mention. So the vast majority move in, try for first, and try to get out, never using a technique they have learned for self defense.

 

[Josh Oakley]

So being first is unimportant? Try point sparing with a live blade. You need to look up the term "useless".
Sean

Still standing at the end of an encounter is what's important. You can still get cut even if you get there first. If you make the first cut and then stop, you'd be training for death. You still gotta finish the fight.

 

[Matt]

Still standing at the end of an encounter is what's important. You can still get cut even if you get there first. If you make the first cut and then stop, you'd be training for death. You still gotta finish the fight.

You know, it took me several posts and a bunch of paragraphs, and I still didn't put it as well as you did.

 

[Hawke]

I now train mainly in FMA and Silat, but still use Kenpo concepts.

Power generations:
If possible combine as many concepts into that strike.
-3D Strike
-Fitting
-Marriage of Gravity
-Torque
-Guided Collision
-Purposeful Compliance
-Bracing Angles
-etc

So when practicing a technique I think how many ways can I stack these power generation concepts into each step as I flow from one attack into another.

 

[marlon]

Still standing at the end of an encounter is what's important. You can still get cut even if you get there first. If you make the first cut and then stop, you'd be training for death. You still gotta finish the fight.

if you get cut first and then stop, you will also be dead. Finish the fight even if you are bleeding, train not to get cut and if you do get cut do not get cut in a vital place.

marlon