Immigration explained

[jetboatdeath]

Ya know I can see a trend here. Basically if you make over 90k a year you’re for Illegal immigration. (I am not saying in here in general)
Why? Because they have the “I am too good to go dig a ditch syndrome.”
But they know that ditch needs to be dug and they sure aren't going to do it.
But they might not be able to make that boat payment if they have to pay a union ditch digger top wages.
So they hire a immigrant worker for ½ the cost and all is good.

 

[Empty Hands]

No problem, Friend. From Post #67... the one you specifically bought up...

Very well, that was incorrectly labeled. It should read "Immigration laws", I did not intend to write "rules."

Now, are you going to address my point?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Not really wanting to get into this but being married to an immigrant and knowing a lot of people who came here legally I have to say they are not all too happy about illegal immigrants either, especially form their own country.

My first wife’s family (totally different country) all of her grand parents aunts and uncles were (legal) immigrants and her family was not all to found of illegal immigrants either.

However with that said I come from an illegal immigrant, it was 3 or 4 generations ago and from Germany but still illegal.

 

[Cryozombie]

Now, are you going to address my point?

Not really because, Well, to be honest with you, I don't make the distinction the same way you do. In my mind, It's like saying a speeding ticket isn't a criminal offense, because you only get fined, you dont get imprisoned, and you don't have to go to court for it.

But the fact still stands it's on your criminal record...

<shrug>

We have different beliefs as to what consitutes crime I guess.

 

[Empty Hands]

We have different beliefs as to what consitutes crime I guess.

Well, it isn't up to you or me, and it isn't up to beliefs. What is and isn't a crime is specifically defined in US law. For support:
"Shortening the term in this way also stereotypes undocumented people who are in the United States as having committed a crime. Under current U.S. immigration law, being an undocumented immigrant is not a crime, it is a civil violation."
From the National Association of Hispanic Journalists
http://www.nahj.org/nahjnews/articles/2006/March/immigrationcoverage.shtml

 

[Cryozombie]

You are missing my point... I understand that as long as HR4437 hasnt passed its a civil issue... Ive never argued that.

We can argue the semantics of it over and over... but the fact remains...

If you break the law, you are a criminal.

It's hard to argue that is not the case. Regarless of the fact the penalties are minor, like a traffic violation, regardless of the fact it's handled in Civil court... THEY HAD TO BREAK A LAW TO GET THERE, which brings us back to...


If you break the law, you are a criminal.

 

[jetboatdeath]

Zombie next time post it in spanish maybe he will get it.

 

[Amazon]

Not really because, Well, to be honest with you, I don't make the distinction the same way you do. In my mind, It's like saying a speeding ticket isn't a criminal offense, because you only get fined, you dont get imprisoned, and you don't have to go to court for it.

But the fact still stands it's on your criminal record...

A speeding ticket goes on your driving record. It does not go on your criminal record. A civil code violation is not recognized by the law as a criminal offense.

You are missing my point... I understand that as long as HR4437 hasnt passed its a civil issue... Ive never argued that.

Yes, you did. You claimed it's a criminal issue, which is different than a civil issue.

We can argue the semantics of it over and over... but the fact remains...

If you break the law, you are a criminal.

Not neccisarily. If you break the criminal code you are a criminal. That's why it's called the criminal code.

You can think whatever you want about it, but the law is clear that a civil violation is not a criminal offense.

Zombie next time post it in spanish maybe he will get it.

I certainly hope you clarify what is meant by this because:

-If you are assuming he is Hispanic then it is a racist remark, as he has clearly demonstrated his English speaking skills
-If you (correctly) assumed that he is, in fact, not hispanic then this comment makes no sense and needs the clarification I requested above.

 

[Carol]

Well, since the subject of the thread is immigration...what should be debated IMO is immigration...and not each other.

 

[FearlessFreep]

what should be debated IMO is [the topic at hand]...and not each other.

Are you new here?

 

[Jonathan Randall]

what should be debated IMO is [the topic at hand]...and not each other.

Are you new here?

No, she's an MT Moderator trying to nudge the thread back on topic.

 

[Grenadier]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, return to the original topic.

-Ronald Shin
-MT Moderator-

 

[shesulsa]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Admin. Note:

Any further slurs or racially-based comments will NOT be tolerated. There will be no more warnings on this matter.

G Ketchmark / shesulsa
MT Assistant Administrator

 

[Ray]

Well, it isn't up to you or me, and it isn't up to beliefs. What is and isn't a crime is specifically defined in US law. For support:
"Shortening the term in this way also stereotypes undocumented people who are in the United States as having committed a crime. Under current U.S. immigration law, being an undocumented immigrant is not a crime, it is a civil violation."
From the National Association of Hispanic Journalists
http://www.nahj.org/nahjnews/articles/2006/March/immigrationcoverage.shtml

Now we know what the journalists think regarding the law. Do we have any quotes from lawyers or judges? Or law enforcement officers? Or INS officers?

 

[Cryozombie]

A speeding ticket goes on your driving record. It does not go on your criminal record.

Do a criminal background check on someone. I used to do it all the time when I was working Repo. Traffic Violations you are found guilty of show up. Maybe it GOES on your driving record, but they show up...

Yes, you did. You claimed it's a criminal issue, which is different than a civil issue.

Did I? Can you point it out to me, I was under the understanding I said it makes you a criminal, not that by law its criminal law. If you can quote me, I'll retract it.

 

[Empty Hands]

Zombie next time post it in spanish maybe he will get it.

Yo no soy companero, soy capitan, soy capitan, soy capitan...

Now we know what the journalists think regarding the law. Do we have any quotes from lawyers or judges? Or law enforcement officers? Or INS officers?

From the Council of State Governments:
"The bill would make illegal immigration a felony instead of a civil violation and calls for a fence along the Arizona-Mexico border."
http://www.csgeast.org/page.asp?id=weeklynewsbulletin84

From Police Chief Magazine:
"But legally admitted aliens overstaying their visas have committed a civil violation, and state and local police have no authority to arrest and detain them."
http://policechiefmagazine.org/maga...on=display_arch&article_id=224&issue_id=22004

 

[Amazon]

Do a criminal background check on someone. I used to do it all the time when I was working Repo. Traffic Violations you are found guilty of show up. Maybe it GOES on your driving record, but they show up...

If you were doing Repo you were more than likley running a comprehensive background check - which pulls up a lot more than just a criminal record. It also pulls up civil and other matters (i.e. not everything you pull on a background check is a criminal record).

I used to do a lot of hiring and run a lot of background checks.

Did I? Can you point it out to me, I was under the understanding I said it makes you a criminal, not that by law its criminal law. If you can quote me, I'll retract it.

In this post you said that an argument claiming is was not a criminal matter wouldn't stand up to the "reasonable person test":

So if the argument is that it's not a criminal matter, and that labeling the people who violate it as criminals is wrong... well, I dunno if it would stand the reasonable person test

 

[Cryozombie]

Ah, yes, but you see that is an addition to this:

Last time I checked, the Definition of a CRIMINAL is somone who did somthing in vioilation of the law. So how is labeling them criminal inaccurate?

My statement was that Violating A law makes you a criminal. Now perhaps that is not saying "all Sneeds are Flumps, but not all Flumps are Sneeds"... but thats just my perspective on this.

 

[Cryozombie]

I was thinking about what Jetboat Death Said about Ditch Digging, and Here's a question for the supporters of Illegal Immigration...

Other than the minorities fighting the system for their people to be allowed to come here illegally, How many of you live in these kinds neighborhoods?

Let me paint a pitcure: Maybe 80% of all the signs are in a foriegn language, and the Grocery store clerks around you don't speak engilsh... so its next to impossible for you to do buisness in your town, you have to go elsewhere for your bread. There are gangs running the streets in your town, tagging your walls, and the city/township/whatever says that YOU are responsible for painting over it every other week. You look out and the homes around you have 4-6 families living in a 2 bedroom house... not a condition exactly up to snuff with anything that DCFS would find acceptable in a "normal" neighborhood... and speaking of neighborhood there is certainly no sense of neighborhood or community... if something happens, no one sees it... so the crime rate is high, and the arrest rate is low... no one wants to talk to the police, they might find out about the 6 illegal aliens living in a closet in their basement... these are examples of the types of neighborhoods I mean... you can certainly insert any race or group, from the russians and poles, to the hispanics or asians... race isnt so much of an issue as the types of things I mentioned...

and if you don't live in one of those such neighborhoods...

Would you honestly move there?

​

 

[Amazon]

Ah, yes, but you see that is an addition to this:



My statement was that Violating A law makes you a criminal. Now perhaps that is not saying "all Sneeds are Flumps, but not all Flumps are Sneeds"... but thats just my perspective on this.

You said very clearly that saying it was not a criminal matter would not stand up to the "reasonable person test'. Obviously making your point that you believe it to be a criminal matter. Playing semantics is rather difficult when your original statment was extremely clear.