Immigration explained

[michaeledward]

First point because there has to be a screening process of some sort, or we will end up with every criminal and low-life other Countries don't want. It would be a lot cheeper to buy a passage to the US than imprision them.

I do not believe there needs to be a screening process. Let them come. Each and every one. Come one, Come All! Welcome.

Give me your tired, your poor,​

your huddled masses, yearning to breathe free​

The wretched refuse or your teeming shore​

Send these, the homeless, the temptest tost to me​

I lift my lamp by the golden door.​

​

The second point because it IS difficult to read an invitation to join the KKK in that letter.

Have you ever wondered how gay people, making up by some estimates less than 7% of the population, find each other? Do you suppose they have a secret handshake, or something?


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

On a different note ..

Nice try! Link those that you don't agree with to the KKK. That's low. Even for a devout partisan.

This is an interesting comment that came my way. The unnamed commentor is saying that I have linked the original poster to the Ku Klux Klan. This is an interesting thought. Let's examine it, shall we.

I believe after reading the initial post, I was offended. It seemed a simplistic argument against a complex reality. Having recently been made aware of the reports by the Anti-Defamation League, I thought there was a connection. Primarily because the ADL suggests that a rise in activity among the Ku Klux Klan is being driven by illegal immigration.

I connected to the ADL web-site and the an Associated Press article reporting on the Anti-Defamation Leagues research. And then I closed my post with this ...

When one sees a note that ends with ...

Originally Posted by jetboatdeath
Only in America .....if you agree, pass it on (in English). Share it if you see the value of it.

... it is not difficult to read this letter as an invitation to join their organizaiton.

It is not impossible to say that I am accusing jetboatdeath of attempting to recuit for the KKK. Althought that is far from what I believe I am doing, and far from what I meant.

I do not believe for a moment that the original post in this thread is the intellectual property of jetboatdeath. Most likely, it is spam that comes from an email ... quite possibly the original source will never be identified.

However, jetboatdeath did not print this work attributed to someone else's intellect. He posted it as if it was his own. So, when I quoted the text, I included him as its source. I could have quoted the language from the letter without sourcing it to jetboatdeath, but that too, would be a mischaracterization. After all, I am not certain that this work is not his intellectual property. He did post without any other sourcing.

But, the actual request to 'pass it on' also requires some attention, I think. This is saying 'if you think like I do, spread the message', reinforce our beliefs. Let us find people like ourselves so that we might unite to make our message louder.

That citizens can peaceably assemble is one of the protections afforded us in the First Amendment to the Constitution. I cherish that right. And I recognize that right. To see this 'pass it on', as a signpost for like minded people to peaceably assemble is not a difficult reach.

Now, connect that with the articles by the Anti-Defamation League. The Ku Klux Klan is searching for like minded people, and finding them in the illegal immigration debate. In its history, the most explosive period of the KKK's history was during the German and Irish immigration periods in the early 20th century. Immigration has been shown to be a powerful recruiting tool for the organization. It was then, why not now?

So, it may very well be that jetboatdeath has no idea what the Ku Klux Klan is, nor did he intend to invite people to the organization. Well, I saw this language as a code that like minded people would identify with and be drawn to, and if that doesn’t qualify as an invitation, I don’t know what does.

I can hear the clarion call of white supremecy in the original post ... jetboatdeath may not be aware that he is issuing that sound by 'passing it on' ... but maybe it is there ... or as some here think, I'm just attacking America because I hate President Bush.

 

[michaeledward]

In my mind, I conceived country A as a country where Aluminum was produced less expensively than in country B. Part of the reduced cost was the cost of employee wages. I put country B in the category of a place where wages were higher and poor people from country A would illegally enter country B.

Ray, what if Country B said, "Hey everybody, come in. There are no laws preventing you from coming."

Is worker from Country A then illegal?

We are no where near ready for open and free borders.

Why not? Our country existed that way for many, many years.

 

[bydand]

I do not believe there needs to be a screening process. Let them come. Each and every one. Come one, Come All! Welcome.

Give me your tired, your poor,​

your huddled masses, yearning to breathe free​

The wretched refuse or your teeming shore​

Send these, the homeless, the temptest tost to me​

I lift my lamp by the golden door.​

Have you ever wondered how gay people, making up by some estimates less than 7% of the population, find each other? Do you suppose they have a secret handshake, or something?

Actually it doesn't say anywhere there about taking the criminals and low-lifes. And even a semi-reasonable person cannot make the jump from wretched refuse to criminal minded. No sreening process at all? Good luck with that!

As for the secret handshake, can't speak for the homosexual community, but when it comes to the KKK... not a handshake, a hand position shall we say. Don't ask, I didn't run with the best of people in my stupid younger days - NO I never agreed with the tenets of the KKK, but several of my "friends" and relatives did, and had the hoods to prove it. I personally find the whole idealology of the Klan to be sickening and repulsive, My best friend from kindergarten to this day (39 years) is Hispanic, I cannot even begin to believe someone may think less of him or his family due to their ethnic background.

This is an interesting comment that came my way. The unnamed commentor is saying that I have linked the original poster to the Ku Klux Klan. This is an interesting thought. Let's examine it, shall we.

That thought never crossed my mind personally. I may disagree with your personal views most of the time, but never have seen a post where you don't just say what you mean, and think. That is one of the reasons I like reading your posts (even though the majority of them piss me off ). You tend to make me think about my stand on an issue, and for that, no matter how blooming mad some of them make me, I like reading your responses. I don't think I'll find much we will agree on, but at least you don't pull your punches and lay out your stand for all to see, no matter how unpopular they may be at times.

 

[michaeledward]

Thank you, Scott.

I think it is interesting to thing about out how people with minority or fringe interests find each other. It really doesn't matter the topic. But when those involved are a small minority of the population, how do they meet?

My mother-in-law is gay. My father-in-law is gay. (don't ask) How do they go about finding their partners? (current partners, I mean). I am a straight man, and I believe I have only once in 42 years been propositioned by a gay man. Why doesn't that happen more often?

The town of Danvers, Mass recently hosted the 'Fetish Faire'; where people could find all of their needs to fulfill any sexual fantasy. But, outside of a gathering like this, how would Mary find someone to train her to become Miss Mary? How would Miss Mary find someone willing to be subserviant to her dominatrix persona? Never in my life have I had such a conversation. (well .. this one time in college ... .never mind).

Personally, I think nothing about gay couples. And, what people do in the privacy of their own dungeons is none of my business. But, how do they find each other?

This same question could apply to the attitudes of White Supremecy, and probably many other organizations that society finds displeasing. They have to find some way to communicate with each other. Sometimes, it is done in plain sight or in plain hearing.

When President Bush nominated Harriet Miers to the Supreme Court, his language ... about 'knowing her heart' ... sounds genuine and innocent enough. But, some of my political stripe posited that was his 'secret handshake' to the Movement Christians that have been so important to his administrations.

Maybe that 'hidden in plain sight' call to racism isn't in the original post. Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but that doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.


Oh, and on the open borders ... really and truly; Wide Open. I'm not saying that we eliminate all laws in the country. Just the ones that prevent ambitious people from coming to this country to work. If a crook came here and acted like a crook, arrest and prosecute him. I hear there is a tent city in Arizona. As Picard said to Q ... We may have been, once, but Test Us! ... Let their actions once here guide us.

 

[shinbushi]

Yes it is easy for those way up north to not worry about the illegal invasion of our southern border, here are some stats to think about.
Form http://www.alipac.us/article63.html

By Frosty Wooldridge News With Views.com 11-9-4 In 2003, according to the Arizona Department of Motor Vehicles, 57,600 cars were stolen in Phoenix. It is now the car-jacking capital of the world. Most were SUVs and pickup trucks. At a conservative average of $15,000.00 per vehicle, owner losses exceeded $864 million. Insurance companies in the state suffered incredible claims from policyholders. Worse, how would you like to walk out of your home or business to see your car gone? Imagine the hassle, violation of your hard work and disrespect for your well being.

Where did those vehicles go? Who stole them? Take a guess. Arizona is the temporary home of 500,000 illegal aliens. They cost Arizona taxpayers over $1 billion annually in services for schools, medical care, welfare anchor babies, loss of tax base and prisons. Illegals use those vehicles for smuggling more people and drugs from around the world into our country. When the vehicles are recovered, they are smashed-up wrecks in the desert. If not found, they have new owners south of the border as thieves drive the cars through the desert and into Mexico as easily as you drive your kids to soccer practice. THAT's how porous our borders are! The chilling costs of illegal migration reach like an octopus into every aspect of our lives. Illegal aliens displaced American workers at a cost in excess of $133 billion dollars last year according to Harvard Professor George Borjas. College and high school kids cannot find a summer job in yard care, landscape, fast food or service jobs. Why? Illegal aliens work them at a third the wage and often' under the table. Not only do your kids not have jobs; you,re paying taxes for illegal aliens who are not paying taxes. Annually, 75 percent of drugs arrive from Mexico at a net cost of $120 billion hard currency that leaves our country for good. In addition' our tax dollars pay $80 billion for the War on Drugs each year. It is a war that hasn't been won in the past 30 years and drugs are as available today to your teenager as they were in 1970. When an alien criminal gets caught for rape, murder or drug distribution' you pay $1.6 billion annually in prison costs to house, feed and clothe those filling 30 percent of our federal and state prisons - not to mention TV, movies, weight rooms and other entertainment - they enjoy while being incarcerated. Is your blood boiling at this point? How about illegal alien anchor babies? Over 300,000 women annually arrive pregnant and drop them on U.S. soil. You pay food, housing, medical and schooling for them to age 18 PLUS their mother. According to the Center for Immigration Studies, average annual cost per child K-12 is $7,161.00 and exceeds $109 billion annually per cycle of anchor babies. That's your money given out to 300,000 moms and their kids annually and all they did was get pregnant and birth that child on U.S. soil. If you haven't had a heart attack by now, you'll need Tums after this figure. The average head of household illegal alien costs you $2,700.00 in welfare money over and above any taxes he or she pays in their meager paying jobs. With 15 to 20 million illegal aliens in the USA, that figures exceeds $20 billion of your tax dollars. (Source: Center for Immigration Studies, August 2004) How about the $56 billion in pure cash illegal migrants sent to their home countries last year and every year? That's after their kids enjoyed free education' free lunches and free medical care paid for by you. Mexico receives $15 billion annually from its worker drones. No wonder Vicente Fox sent us 9.2 million illegal alien Mexicans so far. The lifetime net fiscal drain"taxes paid minus services used - for an adult immigrant is $55,200 according to Carrying Capacity Network. Who makes that money up? You do! Your work! Your taxes! With a minimum of 15 million illegal aliens in our country, these figures are the tip of the iceberg. Average bilingual education is $1,200.00 per illegal alien student. Get this! We educate 1.1 million illegal alien children each year. Do the math! Ready for another anvil dropped on your toe fact? You paid $27 billion to provide forms, ballots, interpreters and brochures for languages other than English in 2003. An estimated one-third to one-half illegal aliens work off the books. It costs $200 million to provide for emergency health care for illegal aliens in the Border States annually. California with over three million illegals paid $79 million' BUT four of their major LA hospitals bankrupted and shut their doors in 2004. Texas with 1.5 million illegal aliens paid $74 million in hospital care. Who is Texas? You, the taxpayer, that's who! Because you, in your state, pay commensurate medical care according to your illegal alien population. Georgia ran a $63 million deficit for 64,000 unpaid doctor visits to their Grady Health Care system in 2002. In the same year, Georgia taxpayers paid $27 million for 11,188 anchor baby hospital births. Georgia taxpayers paid a whopping $242 million for educating illegal alien kids in 2003. What is it in your state? What are the consequences? One in two adult African-Americans in New York is unemployed. African-American children's poverty grew by 50 percent since 1999. Why? Their dads can't find work. It costs you, the taxpayer, $68 billion a year JUST to pay for the resettlement of legal immigrants. Fellow Americans, we are $7.384 trillion in debt as of November 1, 2004. This year's budget deficit exceeds $413 billion. Our trade deficit stands at $400 billion. Our consumer debt exceeds $2 trillion and our average credit card carries an $8,000.00 balance. Our U.S. government borrows $1.6 billion daily from foreign banks, just to stay afloat. Have you ever heard of the Titanic? We are taking on heavy immigration numbers while we,re being financially bled to death. Are we in trouble or what? Who brings this fiscal nightmare into America? Take a guess. The majority of your Congress! President George W. Bush himself! Tom Ridge, who won't guard our borders from this invasion' but gets his orders from Bush! Illegals are arriving at over 4,000 per night according to Time Magazine, September 12, 2004, "Who Left the Door Open?" I quote, "That total of illegal aliens flooding into the United States this year will total three million"enough to fill 22,000 737 Boeing airliners, or 60 flights every day for a year." Don't you think with that many illegals crossing nightly that anyone with a brain would send troops to our border to protect from an invasion? Since we just re-elected the same Congress and president, you can expect more of the same. You can count on your corporations devouring cheap labor as they send you to the unemployment lines. Additionally, they pay PAC groups to keep senators and congressmen in their back pocket. How do I know? Only 22 companies in 2003 were taken to court for hiring illegal aliens. None went to jail. However, it's a $10,000.00 fine per illegal alien hired and up to five years in prison. You would think that would deter corporations. Not when they've bought off enforcement! Who else figures in this grand scheme? Your governors and mayors who provide sanctuary laws for illegal aliens! Mayor Bloomberg of New York City. Governor Baldacci of Maine! Governor Bill Owens of Colorado! Mayor Hickenlooper of Denver! Mayor of Los Angeles! Mayor of San Francisco! Mayor of Chicago! Mayor of Miami! How do I know? All those cities and dozens more give sanctuary to illegal aliens with Special Order 40. Illegals remain in our country with exemption from arrest"yet, they are federal criminals! Can you blame millions of desperate people for coming illegally to America? Hardly! Do you think they will stop coming since the world adds 80 million annually of poor, hopeless people from war torn' ravaged and impoverished Third World countries? Not a chance! This is the land of free milk and honey. As long as our leaders allow the invasion and not enough Americans speak up, you can expect 12 million more illegal aliens in the next four years. Who pays for this invasion of your country? You do! As a final note, if you,re as sick of this nation-destroying dilemma as I am, go to my web site. I'll send you an action letter with 17 effective points to change our nation's suicidal course. Whatever your talent, you will become a part of this movement to save our country from this disaster being brought to us by our leaders. You may send that action email out to your friends and they can send it to their friends. As Americans we must link arms, hearts and minds to take action to preserve our country and force our leaders to stop this illegal immigration madness. It's called a 'consciousness shift' and it's going to take every one of us. That means everything you do, COUNTS! Frosty Wooldridge is a teacher and author who has bicycled 100,000 miles on six continents to see overpopulation up close and ugly. His explosive new book is: "IMMIGRATION'S UNARMED INVASION: DEADLY CONSEQUENCES." Copies may be obtained: 1 888 280 7715 Read entire story here. Read copy at Rense.com.

 

[bydand]

Oh, and on the open borders ... really and truly; Wide Open. I'm not saying that we eliminate all laws in the country. Just the ones that prevent ambitious people from coming to this country to work. If a crook came here and acted like a crook, arrest and prosecute him. I hear there is a tent city in Arizona. As Picard said to Q ... We may have been, once, but Test Us! ... Let their actions once here guide us.

Damn it man, I am beginning to see where you are coming from. You might (and it pains me to say this) have a point. I have no problem with letting in those who are willing to work and become a productive member of the Country. I think a wide open border would cause a vast increase in problems, more than the benefits could outweigh, but also have to concede the point that it is too constrictive as it is right now. Where that middle ground is, I don't have an answer and am thankful I am not the one who has to come up with the answer to that question.

 

[michaeledward]

Pivoting back to immigration ...

I saw this on the HuffPo

I don't want my 17-year-old son to have to pick tomatoes or make beds in Las Vegas.

He was explaining the President's guest worker program, apparently.

The article has another interesting old quote it

In the United States professions are more or less laborious, more or less profitable; but they are never either high or low: every honest calling is honorable.

and this ...

but most importantly it would change the very nature of our society for the worse, creating whole occupations deemed to be unfit for respectable Americans, for which little brown people have to be imported from abroad. In other words, mass immigration, even now, is moving us toward an unequal, master-servant society.

Although, I don't believe it is mass immigration that is accomplishing this division, but rather that immigration is 'illegal' ... which gives the employer power over the worker beyond compensation.

 

[bydand]

Yes it is easy for those way up north to not worry about the illegal invasion of our southern border, here are some stats to think about.

We don't have the influx of the Hispanic population, true. But, you don't have to worry about the numbers of Canadians who come across and take jobs on this side. Can't tell where they are from just by looking or listening to them either.

Granted we have nowhere near the people crossing the border, but we do have a giant problem with drugs coming down from the North. In Maine alone there are hundreds of miles of border without so much as a house along it and the criminal element is having a field day with it.

 

[jetboatdeath]

Mike you said If a crook came here and acted like a crook, arrest and prosecute him.

Problem is we are talking about Illegal immigrants see that first word. He came in a crook so arrest him.

The post is dealing with illegal immigration. Not the Klan. Funny how things get introduced into the post to steer the comments away from the original. How long are they gonna beat that dog?

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Even during the mass imigrations of the late 1800's-early 1900's you had to go through the proper procedures. Remember Ellis Island?

 

[michaeledward]

Mike you said If a crook came here and acted like a crook, arrest and prosecute him.

Problem is we are talking about Illegal immigrants see that first word. He came in a crook so arrest him.

The post is dealing with illegal immigration. Not the Klan. Funny how things get introduced into the post to steer the comments away from the original. How long are they gonna beat that dog?

Throughout my posts on this thread, I have advanced my position that there should be NO LAWS prohibiting anyone from entering the country. Therefore, there could be ZERO Illegal immigrants. The laws that restrict people from coming to this country, for any reason, should be revoked, rewritten and eliminated.

When it was written "We the People of the United States of America ... ", it was inclusive of anyone who had the guts to come to these shores. (Oh, sure, women, and slaves, and non-land owning males didn't count, but you understand what I am saying). Don't know why it needs to be any different today.

And, your original post deals with bigotry, not illegal immigration.

 

[michaeledward]

Even during the mass imigrations of the late 1800's-early 1900's you had to go through the proper procedures. Remember Ellis Island?

Yes, I do remember. Let me quote myself.

I believe anyone who wants to come to American to live or work, should cross the border freely, walk into a Social Security Office and get a legal document that allows them to work, earn money and participate in the system.

I think that spells out a 'proper procedure' that is plenty complete. And probably just about equal to what happened on Ellis Island.

EDIT - I just read a short piece about the lengthy process immigrants faced at Ellis Island. It was new information to me. But, the records indicate that approximately 98% of people petitioning from Ellis Island were admitted into our Union. - END EDIT

 

[FearlessFreep]

In a rare instance of agreeing with Michael, I think it's foolish that going from one piece of dirt to another is 'illegal'. We are here 'legally' because we got her first, and now we say you can't come here.


The border shouldn't be guarded by troops, it should be manned by buerocrats with SSAN cards to hand to everyone that comes across. Get 'em in and get 'em working and get 'em paying taxes; get 'em a part of us

 

[Blotan Hunka]

EDIT - I just read a short piece about the lengthy process immigrants faced at Ellis Island. It was new information to me. But, the records indicate that approximately 98% of people petitioning from Ellis Island were admitted into our Union. - END EDIT

Thats all Im sayin. However, like an Island in NY harbor. I dont agree with the "cross the border freely" part. If you can show you are not a criminal/wanted/a terrorist than fill out your papers and come on in. Unsecured borders is a recipe for all sorts of bad stuff.

 

[michaeledward]

In a rare instance of agreeing with Michael, I think it's foolish that going from one piece of dirt to another is 'illegal'.

Oh, Crap! :xtrmshock ... Now I got to go figure out how I thought this through so carefully ... and then got it wrong!

If FearlessFreep and I are agreeing on something ... one of us has got to be wrong. :duel:

I think it's my turn. :uhoh:

 

[Don Roley]

In a rare instance of agreeing with Michael, I think it's foolish that going from one piece of dirt to another is 'illegal'. We are here 'legally' because we got her first, and now we say you can't come here.


The border shouldn't be guarded by troops, it should be manned by buerocrats with SSAN cards to hand to everyone that comes across. Get 'em in and get 'em working and get 'em paying taxes; get 'em a part of us

I think the problem is that we could make every illeagle alien a citizen today and overnight they would change from people who worked illeaglly...

....to people who can't work at all.

When we are talking about most illeagle immigrants we are talking about unskilled labor that can't speak functional English.

This of course describes a lot of our anscestors once they got off the ship at Ellis Island.

But our forefathers where willing to work really crappy jobs for little pay and no safety net for the chance to either improve themselves, or have their children grow up with chances they never had. If they fell off of a roof, they had to arrange for a way to get to a doctor and pay for it themselves. They did not get paid for missed work, or for having a kid unless their employer was willing to do so.

Quite simply put, a person who has no job skills and can't speak Engish is barred from ever getting the jobs that our anscestors got. Now the employer if they employ the person legally has to not only pay what the government tells them they will pay, they also have to shell out for unemployment insurance, health coverage, maternity leave.....and the list goes on.

I used to work for a Japanese couple at their restraunt. They got around the problems of being employed by working for themselves. They were there to set up by the time they opened for lunch at 11 and left after cleaning up after the last customer was served at 10 pm. No health insurance AFAIK, one day off a week, etc. But they were willing to do it to raise their daughter in a country where she had less sexism and more oppurtunity. And the last I heard, she had a MBA and was doing very, very well.

And thier story is not the only one. You can see a lot of little stores opened up by Koreans who work long hours and avoid a lot of taxes and such by using family members. Their kids are setting the standards in the school system and are getting better jobs than their parents could ever hope to get in the old country.

But for the guys that just want to come here and work their butts off for someone else for a chance to make their lives or their kids lives better- we have functionally barred them from ever getting a legal job in the name of compassion.

Something to think about. I really do not know how we can change this fundemental fact.

 

[FearlessFreep]

Don, it's because, fpr whatever reason or root cause, we've made life much more complicated and controlled.

The Apollo Project could not be accomplished today in nearly the same time frame.

Neither the US Highway system, nor many of our greater civil engineering accomplishments.

Too much paperwork, too much fear of risk, too much regulation. It's made us safer, at the cost of making us ineffective.

and then it trickles out to all aspects our our reality, our day to day living. Much rarer and more difficlt for a guy to show up in need of a bed and a few meals to cut wood or wash dishes for the day or two

We've outgrown some of our barbarism, and lost some of our drive to live.

 

[michaeledward]

I think that drive can still be found in those who are willing to fight to enter this country; paying exhorbitant bribes to coyotes, crossing dangerous rivers or deserts to bypass the legal entry points, living in cardboard shanty towns in the hills behind local 'McMansions'. I think there is some drive there.

As for a workforce that is unable to work, there are reportedly between eleven and twelve million people in this country right now that can be described as 'illegal immigrants'. They are cleaning the floors of our offices at night. During the day, they are cleaning the hotel rooms in which we sleep. They are picking the strawberries and lettuce and broccoli we demand at our local grocery store. They are re-building what is being rebuilt in the city of New Orleans.

They are doing the 'Hard Work' in our society. When I work hard, it is with my brain. I apply my talents, intellect and energy to solve problems. For these 'illegal immigrants', they are working hard, moving that pile of rocks from over there, to over here. Carrying that round boulder up the hill, to see it roll back down again; allowing him to start over.

Every immigrant population was ostracized a bit when they arrived. But, in a few generations, they became Americanized to lesser or greater degrees. (My mother in law still speaks French around the dinner table at times).

But, for this immigrant population, we have made them all criminals. Is there a more certain way to guarantee that they will not, two generations hence, be Americans. Not only do they live in Shanty Towns, but because we name them 'criminals' and ostracize them to a greater extent than any prior generation, we are forcing them to keep and fight for their non-American heritage.

Talk about an unintended consequence.

 

[grydth]

I think that drive can still be found in those who are willing to fight to enter this country; paying exhorbitant bribes to coyotes, crossing dangerous rivers or deserts to bypass the legal entry points, living in cardboard shanty towns in the hills behind local 'McMansions'. I think there is some drive there.

As for a workforce that is unable to work, there are reportedly between eleven and twelve million people in this country right now that can be described as 'illegal immigrants'. They are cleaning the floors of our offices at night. During the day, they are cleaning the hotel rooms in which we sleep. They are picking the strawberries and lettuce and broccoli we demand at our local grocery store. They are re-building what is being rebuilt in the city of New Orleans.

They are doing the 'Hard Work' in our society. When I work hard, it is with my brain. I apply my talents, intellect and energy to solve problems. For these 'illegal immigrants', they are working hard, moving that pile of rocks from over there, to over here. Carrying that round boulder up the hill, to see it roll back down again; allowing him to start over.

Every immigrant population was ostracized a bit when they arrived. But, in a few generations, they became Americanized to lesser or greater degrees. (My mother in law still speaks French around the dinner table at times).

But, for this immigrant population, we have made them all criminals. Is there a more certain way to guarantee that they will not, two generations hence, be Americans. Not only do they live in Shanty Towns, but because we name them 'criminals' and ostracize them to a greater extent than any prior generation, we are forcing them to keep and fight for their non-American heritage.

Talk about an unintended consequence.

There are two sides to any story, and you are doing an able job of presenting one. I think there are some valid points. But...

We did not make illegal aliens criminals. Like most other modern nation states, we have long had laws governing citizenship and residency. Within those laws, it is possible to come here from other countries...... to openly live and to work legally. By violating these laws, they have made themselves criminals. As a matter of law, you are incorrect on this.

I have 3 legal immigrants employed at our work place, and they indeed exemplify the traits you say immigrants have. But generalizing motive and intent to all members of any class is wrong no matter which end of the political spectrum does it. So, while there are many hard workers, there are also many drug lords profitting by selling poison from overseas to our children. There are drunk drivers without insurance, murderers and rapists, crime cartels from other countries. Let's not forget those visitors who perpetrated 9/11 either.

A recent large scale arrest was prompted by citizen complaints - they were dead tired and sick of watching illegals tossing forms into the trash declaring,"Taxes? We don't pay taxes!" Many in fact do not. Many more arrive at hospitals and then scram, leaving us to pay their bills. Used to be called theft of services, but I guess it's okay when they do it?

Some immigrants do come here for a better life, but others as a virus to exploit and then kill the host.

By the way, what would you do under your open borders scheme if a mere 300 million Chinese decided to move here? Just hand the country over?

 

[Ray]

Ray, what if Country B said, "Hey everybody, come in. There are no laws preventing you from coming."

Is worker from Country A then illegal?

Wow...are you asking me: if there is no law against something then is it a legal act? "What if"-- my children used to play that game when they were little and lived at home.

Sometimes you just have to face the facts as they are. There is a procedure, there are laws and anyone breaking the law is a criminal---by definition, that's what a criminal is.