IMAF Leadership

[Dan Anderson]

Bloodwood,
"Did the Professor ever say to you or anyone else out there why he would not approve a formal organized structure for leadership and ranking? Did it go against the grain of Go With the Flow and put restrictions on Professor's loose life style, or was he able to control things better with random promotions that had many people beholding to him for one reason or another."

He would always sidestep that question. I think your second statement is more like it, from my observations.

"The best way for us now is to pick the organization or leaders we believe in and respect and help them grow and prosper."

Yes, yes, yes, and if I didn't make myself clear, yes.

Richard -
"Actually, Guro McConell it doesn't help me much in terms of an explanation. It may simply be a lack of understanding on my part (quite possible) and I say this with no disrespect intended, but what you are describing sounds precisely like the Flow concept that Professor taught in summer camps and seminars in the early and mid-90's."

Yes, it sounds like it to me as well, however, it makes a great deal of sense in this perspective. Either RP used that term to describe the overall concept of the Flow or the MOTT's have. This greatly differentiates between having mastery over one drill (tapi-tapi) and mastering a concept wihc includes not only one but all drills.

Rich Parsons - (re ranking and the like)
"In 'My' experience, Remy Presas, would have people make these suggestions and he would be all for the idea. And then the politics would become an issue even before it could be executed."

I'd disagree on the reason being politics. He just listened, agreed and then went about his business getting more seminars. Check your memory and you'll find out what was important to him, - spreading the word on Moedrn Arnis and getting seminars booked. Those he got done wiht amazing efficiency. The rest was sufficiently unimportant to do anything with. This is by his actions, not by his words.

Paul -
"Does the IMAF, Inc. believe that they are the only ones with Professors complete art (and the only ones sanctioned by professor to to teach his complete art), or does the IMAF, Inc. recognize that they are one group of leaders out of many that are a part of the Modern Arnis family?"

So far, Dan McConnell and Brian Johns are the only ones publicly talking from IMAF, Inc. and from what I get, the second possibility is the one held by the group. The MOTT's were the last group before RP's death to be urged to carry on the torch. Actually, I think I am mistaken as he spoke with his children (founders of MARPPIO) to do the same and said to my face, "Danny, get involved." The only group which appears to give that indication is JD's IMAF and he isn't publicly saying yay or nay.

"I just need to know what IMAF, Inc. is claiming so I can decide whether or not I would like a positive relationship with that group. I need it to be public info so people won't doubt my motives for having a positive relationship with the group. It is just that simple.

And to say that the IMAF, Inc. is not claiming anything, or to differ answering my question, is crap. There is enough implied info that is out there, and to imply a lie (if that is what is being intentionally done) is the same as outright lying.

If I can't get a public answer on this forum, then I will email and write IMAF, Inc. myself. I will try to make a few phone calls as well, but an over the phone answer will not be enough; as I said this answer should be publically stated."

I hope you can get one. The key point I have gotten from IMAF, INc. is the madate they have gotten from RP is their guiding light. I, personally, have gotten no statements of superiority or we are the only ones from Dr. Schea, Chuck Gauss, Gaby Roloff, Brian Zawilinski or Ken Smith. I do wish they would either make a public statement on the matter or appoint Dan McConnell as their spokesman as he is willing to publicly communicate.

All for now,

Dan Anderson

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by DoctorB



Hi Rich,

I believe that you are not entirely correct with regard to your lineages. I have information from both Professor Presas and Bobby Taboada about their training and instructors. In addition, Professor personally approved in 1989, that portion of my lineage chart with regard to his instructors and the Modern Arnis lineage that came down to me.

For Professor:

Leon Presas - his grandfather - Palis-palis and Crossada in the Espada y Daga format.

Also see tape 6 of the orginal Modern Arnis series recorded by the Clapps in the mid 1980's. Listen to his explanations about who first taught him the art of arnis. I believe that he also mentions this on his Black Belt Video Series - tape 2, if I remember it correctly.

He later trained in Balintawak under Rodelpho Moncol, Temeteo Maranga and finally Venacio Bacon in that order.

In an interview published in May/June 1989 issue of Karate international, page 14, Professsor gives the same order of instructors, however he does not specificly name his grandfather.
But in the December 1990 issue of Inside Kung Fu, on page 35, Professor names Leon Presas, as his first instructor in the art of arnis. He very specificly states that his grandfather was a veteran of Spanish-American War and that he was trained in his grandfathers "...style of arnis, espada y daga (sword and dagger) when I was six years old." He later explains that he trained with Moncal, Maranga and then the GM Bacon, himself for 4 years. {Those pieces of information are found on page 36 of the article}

Your information regarding GM Bobby Taboada is also not entirely accurate. Since GM Bacon, did not teach any begining students, with the possible exceptions of GM Ted Buot and GM Dom Lopez, Taboada had to pass through the same type of graduated structure that Professor had encountered. His lineage was through Teofilio Velez to Jose Villasin to GM Venancio "Anciong" Bacon.

If GM Taboada did not study with the late Balintawak GM Bacon, then why is he shown in an 8mm training film shot by GM Johnny Chiuten, sparring with the GM? If he was never part of the innner circle of Bacon students, why is he recognized as such by GM Chiuten as well as Chito Velez, the son of the late GM Teofilio Velez? Why would Professor Presas, acknowledge GM Taboada as fellow student of his teacher GM Bacon, if such were not the case?

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

Dr Barber,

First, thank you for your update.

I never mentioned Leon Presas, because I was an A$$ and ASSumed that everyone knew Remy Presas started first with his Grandfather. The discussion I was trying to further understand was the Balintawak Connection. And yes the order you listed and the time frame is what I have in my knowledge bank I call my head.

As for Bobby Taboada, Thank you for the update and clarification. I was not aware of the Bacon study. I did not mean any disrespect in that he started elsewhere, hell everyone starts somewhere. Thank you for the references. Now, please understand I did not mean to say that it had not happened only what I had in my memory banks. This is good knowledge to have. None of my references stated that Taboada did not train with Bacon, only the he had trained with Vilez and Villasin. :asian:


My Curran, please except my apologies for the lack of knowledge. I am glad I have gained more today.

Rich

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson

. . .
"The best way for us now is to pick the organization or leaders we believe in and respect and help them grow and prosper."
Yes, yes, yes, and if I didn't make myself clear, yes.
. . .
Rich Parsons - (re ranking and the like)
"In 'My' experience, Remy Presas, would have people make these suggestions and he would be all for the idea. And then the politics would become an issue even before it could be executed."

I'd disagree on the reason being politics. He just listened, agreed and then went about his business getting more seminars. Check your memory and you'll find out what was important to him, - spreading the word on Moedrn Arnis and getting seminars booked. Those he got done wiht amazing efficiency. The rest was sufficiently unimportant to do anything with. This is by his actions, not by his words.
. . .
All for now,

Dan Anderson

Dan,

Yes RP was great at getting the seminars, and lining people up for the next swing through the area.

Maybe I took one incident from myself, and applied it across the board. The incident, one of the local instructors, said 'Hey Rich, you are good with computers put something together to help organize this.' I did, and it went nowhere for a lot of the reasons I stated before. Now, I also heard other people talking about trying to help RP do similar things at Seminars and at Camps so I had assumed then that they had gone through something similar to me.

At a later date, when RP asked me himself to help with the Modernaris.com web site. I did get resistance from everyone involved, I was even told to go away, I could not get my Rank by doing the web page for RP. I had Rank at the time, and would not take more until my local instructors said I was ready. Yes, I did start somewhere and not Directly with a GM.

So, Dan, While I agree that Remy Was after the next Seminar, and looking to travel around the country, I did have these experiences, as well as some others we could discuss over that beer I am to buy the winner Symposium Slogan Contest. IF I am buying one I might as well but two.

Thanks

Rich
:asian:

 

[arnisador]

You could have gotten rank for doing the web page.

I understand you wouldn't have wanted it. But the Prof. certainly gave out rank for helping as well as skill. Rank was given out like candy at times.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by arnisador

You could have gotten rank for doing the web page.

I understand you wouldn't have wanted it. But the Prof. certainly gave out rank for helping as well as skill. Rank was given out like candy at times.

GM Presas never offered me Rank for helping, he only asked if I would. It caused me problems. I always seem to get into trouble whenever I try to help out others.

The only Rank I have ever truly been proud of are the following ranks. In Alphabetical Order:

Student of Manong Ted Buot
Student of Joe Dorris
Student of Master Jeff Owens
Student of Master Jim Power
Student of Grand Master Remy Presas

The last is questionable, from what I hear from others. GM Presas sat on all my Lakan and above certificates to my Last of Lakan Tatlo. I did train and work out with him when he was in Flint, but, nothing like the others on the list or like many of the Datu's or Protégé's. I would have to say I put it there for my own ego sense, but do not deny the others at the same time.

Sincerely

Rich

:asian:

 

[bloodwood]

Just a light hearted look at our current state of affairs.

Just think if there was a symposium while Professor was still here. All the major players and all those who thought they were somebody in the same room with the Professor at the same time.Just the thought of it could blow the top of your head off. The air would be thick and the a$$ kissing would be in full swing.A fly on the wall with a video camera would make a fortune.

 

[Emptyglass]

Hello everyone:

I'll try and respond in (semi) order...

To Rich Parsons (post 1 and 2):

"My Curran, please except my apologies for the lack of knowledge. I am glad I have gained more today."

Rich

- Actually Rich, it's Curren, but most people ASSume the more common "an" spelling. As for apology, accepted. I wasn't going to argue with you about it anyway.

To Guro Dan McConnell:

"I could give a more difinitive answer to the tapi tapi question, but so many people have so many diff. opinions that it would neither edify nor help the topic get settled, so I won't. Some people won't be satisfied regardless of the answer. I see that you have made 4 posts so far. Perhaps you have been reading the previous posts/threads on the issue. Perhaps not, but you could find more opinions by reading them.
As for my saying that it is an experiencial portion of the art for some, that is to say that for some, the only explanation is to get in there and try it. They may niether understand by way of verbal explanation or even by watching. They just gotta do it."


- Actually I was only interested in your opinion on the subject, but I'll settle for your polite decline to answer. Yes, only 4 posts and lots of looking for the last year or so. I thought I should really have something to say before I jumped into this pond. I have indeed read lots of opinions, so I thought I would request some info from one of the IMAF, inc. authorities. Pardon me if such things have been discussed before.Perhaps there should be an IMAF, inc. FAQ.
As for the experiencial comment, thanks for the clarification. Statements like that tend to raise my eyebrow when I see them so I thought I'd ask.


To Arnisador:

- Thanks for spelling my name correctly and the confirmation!

To DoctorB:

- Thanks as always for the info and fine reference material. You saved me a great deal of typing with your response. Salamat po!

To Dan Anderson:

"Yes, it sounds like it to me as well, however, it makes a great deal of sense in this perspective. Either RP used that term to describe the overall concept of the Flow or the MOTT's have. This greatly differentiates between having mastery over one drill (tapi-tapi) and mastering a concept wihc includes not only one but all drills."

Thanks very much. Your input is appreciated!


Regards,

Richard Curren

 

[Emptyglass]

Rich Parsons:

In your previous post you asked:

"Now you say the both trained under Anciong Bacon, so since I train with Manong Ted Buot who also trained and taught at Anciong Bacon School, does this mean that I also trained under Anciong Bacon?"

I'm not sure how you would come to this seemingly illogical conclusion from my original statement that both Professor R. Presas and GM B. Toboada both trained under Venancio "Anciong" Bacon. What you're proposing would be like saying (for example) that if you were a student of Dan Inosanto you would also be able to say that you trained with Bruce Lee? Now you could certainly include Anciong Bacon in the lineage of your instructor Manong Ted Buot and also include his lineage on yours if you desired to create an extended piece of documentation on where the knowledge you possess originated. However, I would have to say that no, you could not claim that you trained under Anciong Bacon unless you were physically in his presence under his tutelage. Sorry if my initial statement was confusing or unclear as that certainly wasn't my intent.

Richard Curren

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson: So far, Dan McConnell and Brian Johns are the only ones publicly talking from IMAF, Inc. and from what I get, the second possibility is the one held by the group. The MOTT's were the last group before RP's death to be urged to carry on the torch. Actually, I think I am mistaken as he spoke with his children (founders of MARPPIO) to do the same and said to my face, "Danny, get involved." The only group which appears to give that indication is JD's IMAF and he isn't publicly saying yay or nay.

By using the title "Grandmaster," I would say that JD's IMAF does publically say that they are "the ones." They blantently present themselves as being the top dogs sanctioned by Professor, which is obviously Bull***t.

Through the way information has been presented by the IMAF, Inc., I'd say that one could logically deduce that they believe that they are "the ones" ( "the ones" or "top dogs" could be interpreted in different ways, please read above post where I worded myself very carefully). However, the other side of this is that there are a lot of people in the IMAF, Inc. that are old friends of mine, and who I believe are good people. If that group is purposfully propigating that they are the "top dogs," I would have a hard time believing that everyone on board adheres to that same egotism.

So....I am confused, and I think others are also. I just want to once and for all clear things up.

I hope you can get one. The key point I have gotten from IMAF, INc. is the madate they have gotten from RP is their guiding light. I, personally, have gotten no statements of superiority or we are the only ones from Dr. Schea, Chuck Gauss, Gaby Roloff, Brian Zawilinski or Ken Smith. I do wish they would either make a public statement on the matter or appoint Dan McConnell as their spokesman as he is willing to publicly communicate.

No statements have been made difinitively one way or the other. It is sort of "up in the air," and I am tired of that. I want to know. The answer to the question is very simple, but what fustrates me (and many others) to no end is that the question isn't even entertained.

It would appear that the answer we have all been waiting for is not going to be addressed by the IMAF, Inc. publically on this forum. I will now move into phase II:

Within the next week or two, I will write a letter and E-mail my question to the IMAF, Inc. I will also follow this up with phone calls. Since Dan McConnell said that it should be easy to get a hold of someone, then this should help me get some answers.

Right!?

I will keep inquiring minds posted, and we shall see.

PAUL

 

[Cruentus]

Just think if there was a symposium while Professor was still here. All the major players and all those who thought they were somebody in the same room with the Professor at the same time.Just the thought of it could blow the top of your head off. The air would be thick and the a$$ kissing would be in full swing.A fly on the wall with a video camera would make a fortune.

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson

:: deleted several paragraphs for sake of brevirt; JB ::

I hope you can get one. The key point I have gotten from IMAF, INc. is the madate they have gotten from RP is their guiding light. I, personally, have gotten no statements of superiority or we are the only ones from Dr. Schea, Chuck Gauss, Gaby Roloff, Brian Zawilinski or Ken Smith. I do wish they would either make a public statement on the matter or appoint Dan McConnell as their spokesman as he is willing to publicly communicate.

All for now,

Dan Anderson [/B]

I can agree with all that you stated and I deleted, Dan. Very well put; however your last paragraph is excellent and right on the money. Dan has done a very good job of making relavent points for IMAF Inc and they should make him their official spokesman AND give him the information that he will need to speak clearly and factually for them. I applaude your suggestion. I also would like to encourage Paul, to keep trying to get the answers to your questions.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by bloodwood

Just a light hearted look at our current state of affairs.

Just think if there was a symposium while Professor was still here. All the major players and all those who thought they were somebody in the same room with the Professor at the same time.Just the thought of it could blow the top of your head off. The air would be thick and the a$$ kissing would be in full swing.A fly on the wall with a video camera would make a fortune.

Hello Bloodwood,

Let me be very candid here... IF Professor were still alive, there
WOULD NOT be a Symposium!!! There are two very simple and clear reasons for my statement:

1. Since professor was the charismatic leader of Modern Arnis, in addition to being the founder and GM, most of the people followed him - as a person and only tangentually belonged to and supported the organization; therefore, most of the followers of Remy Presas, the leader-man, would never agree to attend an event at which Professor would have to share center stage with his own students.

2. Professor Presas himself would have never endorsed the Symposium concept. He thrived on being at the top of the heap and he he never really helped any of his senior students to get recognition outside of the organization. He would say good things about different people at different IMAF events, but once he left that area of the country he did not mention those people again until he returned to that area.

Bringing too many of his top people together at an event like this would have diluted his aura and diverted some attention away from him. You would not have to go to a Symposium to see the "rear-end affection displays". Simply think back to any seminar or camp that you attended and how some people jocked for seats near him at dinner!

The beauty of the upcoming Symposium is that a lot of people can come together and share their visions of Modern Arnis and no one will be offending the Professor or have their chances for rank advancement smashed.

This is an opportunity to see and work with a number of different people. It is an opportunity to see how others have grown and diversified the art for themselves. It is actually an opportunity for us all to take the art to another level, for ourselves. In effect the Symposium is an opportunity for anyone who attends to make new friends and find out what others are doing. This event will be primarily about new opportunities to expand the art of Modern Arnis for yourself.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[bloodwood]

Your post is well taken and understood, but wasn't the Professor, at the time of his first becoming ill, setting up some of his top students to teach in Europe and spread the art on his behalf? I may be mistaken and these people were merely traveling with him and assisting at the seminars. Maybe you or someone can shed some light on this. Could he have been changing his attitude and starting to spread the wealth during his European tour? I believe several people helped finish the tour, but I'm not sure who. I think JD was one. I know Datu Hartman was there, but after helping the Professor get the proper medical attention he needed, he continued on to Sweden or Denmark to fill seminar commitments of his own. After that Professor's condition and where abouts were all but a blur to most. This is also the time when the $..t hit the fan.

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by bloodwood

Your post is well taken and understood, but wasn't the Professor, at the time of his first becoming ill, setting up some of his top students to teach in Europe and spread the art on his behalf? I may be mistaken and these people were merely traveling with him and assisting at the seminars. Maybe you or someone can shed some light on this. Could he have been changing his attitude and starting to spread the wealth during his European tour? I believe several people helped finish the tour, but I'm not sure who. I think JD was one. I know Datu Hartman was there, but after helping the Professor get the proper medical attention he needed, he continued on to Sweden or Denmark to fill seminar commitments of his own. After that Professor's condition and where abouts were all but a blur to most. This is also the time when the $..t hit the fan.

I will defer to someone else regarding the last year that Professor was touring and giving seminars. In my experiences
with him prior to 1995, he was more inclined to follow the pattern that I described in my post. I can not tell you that he changed his habits and inclinations in 1999 and 2000, but I also can not say that he had not done so.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[bloodwood]

This has nothing to do with my previous post which I still would like someone's input on, but being this thread is IMAF leadership, if you look at the IMAF ad in BB magazine for Sept., apparently if you order video tapes from them you send payment to the IMAF,INC but with JD's address. I think it's time one of these groups got a new name. Also the assistant in the photo with JD is no longer with his org.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by bloodwood

setting up some of his top students to teach in Europe and spread the art on his behalf? I may be mistaken and these people were merely traveling with him and assisting at the seminars.

This was a rumor some people tried to start. Remy didn't set up anyone in there own country. He would help set up seminars, but he set up the country for himself. Actually it was my friend Jason Arnold ( a kenpo guy) who opened the door for me in europe. I was trying to set up seminars for Remy in Sweden and Spain.

If Remy was going to put some one in a country it would be to clear the path for himself.

:asian:

 

[bloodwood]

Thanks for clearing up that issue.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

I saw this in the locker room. I feel that it applies to us in the Modern Arnis world.

Originally posted by Mickey

Dinosaurs, Dead Beats, and lazy bones

How many times have you listened to someone who left their art / club / etc, say I knew him when he was , pick color belt here, and I cannot believe that he has been promoted to: pick any rank here?


These guys that leave and do not train and then come back and hang around with their old instructors for a few hours or a few days and then complain because other people are progressing in 'their' art. If they had trained during their time off, that sometimes accounts for years, then maybe they would not be heavier than they like and have some skills within an art.

This is not an attack on those that leave a group and train their basement alone or with friends, or with those that open their own independent schools. Unless of course they also complain about people who might have more rank then them.

Just curious, if I am the only one that wants to walk up to them and say ' SHUT-UP! and train or LEAVE!'.

Mick

 

[bloodwood]

All so true.
But the worst are the ones that come back after a long layoff and try to jump right back in with both feet and make an impact. Most of the people they try to connect with, just scratch their heads and say, who the hell is this and where did they come from. They want things to be the way they were without getting reacquainted with the current participants of their art. They don't want to take the time to blend back into the mainstream.

:flushed: beware of what you jump into

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by bloodwood

All so true.
But the worst are the ones that come back after a long layoff and try to jump right back in with both feet and make an impact. Most of the people they try to connect with, just scratch their heads and say, who the hell is this and where did they come from. They want things to be the way they were without getting reacquainted with the current participants of their art. They don't want to take the time to blend back into the mainstream.

:flushed: beware of what you jump into

Bloodwood, there is an element of truth with regard to your statement and the comment quoted by Mr. Hartman, from Mickey, however, I would caution both of you and others to beware of those people who have merely left a particular organization, yet continued to train and develop their skills, else where!

These people might very well be highly skilled, extremely knowledgable instructors in their ow right. The fact that "they have not been seen" at the organizational training sessions/ schools/seminars and camps by the "orthodox traditionalists" of that particular system should not be confused with ineptness.

There are numerous people within any system or art that we have neither seen nor heard of because they have departed the scene before we arrived. The fact we are not aware of who they are and what they can do within the art, Does Not, in and of itself does not constitute an inability to do the art.

Thus, I will again say to everone reading this thread and others on Modern Arnis - the 2003 Symposium is an opportunity for people to meet one another and determine for themselves who among us has 'exceptional' skills in the art or 'excellent', or 'very good', or 'good' or 'above average' or 'average' or 'poor' or for that matter, 'none'!

It is an opportunity to find out if someone has a couple of things that your feel would help you in your personal development.

I would again strees to you and all others reading these posts, talk is cheap, cyber-postings do not equate to actual martial skills and the proof is always going to be determined on the training floor in the final analysis.

Therefore, I am suggsting that it is time to move beyond what Professor did and said... that is all in the past, it can not and it will not be changed. Leadership and respect are earned. At the Symposium, we wll have an opportunity to meet and train with some of the leading people within the art of Modern Arnis and ALL of them trained with Professor Presas.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.