I'm a new guy here...
- Thread starter Subitai
- Start date
Welcome! What do you/have you trained?
OP
OP
Subitai
White Belt
I'm primarily Chinese Martial Arts Now... Hung Gar, Yang and Sun Tai Chi.
FMA, Judo and wrestling back in the day, plus I fought some MMA.
Everything is pretty chill now.
Welcome! I enjoyed your interview with Jerry. Thanks.
Fight Commentary Chats
Nov 2, 2023
We talk to Onassis Parungao about his martial arts journey. What got him into martial arts? What happened in Ultimate Fighting Championship 7? What did he do after UFC 7? Where is O in his martial arts journey? We also talk about the Kungfu community and its evolution, since O is a Hung Gar representative. More conversations soon with this Filipino-American pioneer in the martial arts.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Welcome to MT
Welcome to MartialTalk!
Welcome to martial talk. I enjoyed the pod cast.
Regards
Brian King
Regards
Brian King
Welcome to Martial Talk. Sometimes we cover the same things that 's been discussed many times and sometimes we don't. I don't think I would have been in the groups for this long if everything was just a repeat of conversations from past years. I think focusing on application keeps everything new. Theory often gets old really quick.
windwalker099
3rd Black Belt
Welcome to MT...
An interesting site, with many long time practitioners
covering a wide range of styles and interest.
An interesting site, with many long time practitioners
covering a wide range of styles and interest.
Gyakuto
Senior Master
Welcome to the forum. Itās fantastic that youāve entered a āmartial arts biographyā to your profile as it helps to understand your perspective on things.
What do you think the difference between Taiji and Judo/wrestling?
OP
OP
Subitai
White Belt
Hey, I know that Name and Question rhythm. You're JOHN Wang, from Rum Soaked Fist aren't you? How's it going o'l buddy?
Anyway, i'll give you my take about your question:
I think I fell in love with Hung Style and Taiji because they both have some Stand up grapple methods (Taiji moreso IMO) and the ranges for what I like to do are very similar.
***** Do I go further on this intro thread or should I start a new one?
Anyway,
I know you're like me John, you like fighting or at least are the kind of MA that wants to apply. I respect that.
I would answer your question by pointing out a common goal... as it relates to fighting not just competition.
What is the worst thing that could be put in front of you (opponent wise) if you are Tai Chi and Judo? ( skip wrestling for a second )
answer: In the beginning stand up " IT'S SOMEONE LIKE MOHAMED ALI" Ie. " Float like a butterfly, sting.... " ( everyone knows the rest )
If you cannot close the gap, and or intercept, and or catch him, and or blend, and or take him down, and BLA BLA BLA.
****** There will be a strong possibility that said Mohamed Ali is able to stay on the outside and Pepper you with jabs until, you are so worn down that he can quickly finish with a cross or whatever. I'm talking about someone who is very athletic and quick on their feet. It is a nightmare scenario for any Traditional MA that thinks he can just step in the ring and apply the same way he does in the Kwoon or dojo.
When I spar stand up, I don't stay and trade with people (if I can help it) "trading" means you get some and I get some. I want to close to clinch or some other level of control AFAP. I'm pretty sure you feel the same way with Shuai Jow.
About takedowns, the real strong difference between the 3 are again, do you have a:
Stick point ? (are you touching or grabbing already)
- Taiji has no SHOT in the sense of a western style, ie. lower your level into and single or double leg. The pursuit is usually through what you contact and create some sort of bridge 1st...namely the arms somewhere. Then the set ups can lead to some nasty attacks and combos if you train your taiji that way. Most people are training health only.
- Judo has tons of sweeps, throws and takedowns, ect but to my knowledge most of those again require a set up with the arms or at least grabbing the legs. They once again do NOT lower their level (hips) the same way as western grappling does. Judo can grab anywhere even an ankle pick but usually the set up is via arms first. ALSO a GI really really helps for grab manipulations.
- Wrestling can shoot a takedown via a low drop position usually just out of arms length or closer. NO NEED OF ARMS CONNECTING! Sweeping low outside ankle picks are super fast and an effective way to scoop someone up and.... down. If i'm at the range most Taiji OR Judo is played up close in stand up, screw it ... lower my level and High Crotch lift that SOB straight up, turn and drop him on his head. Its a fight ender, i've done it at least 3 times in street fights growing up.
You and I have gone over this before, haha
Welcome to this forum. There is more "combat" discussion in this forum (It's just too much non-combat discussions in the other forum).
Taiji emphasizes on "water strategy". If you use "earth strategy" with strong defense and move in inch by inch, most Taiji people may have trouble to deal with you because
- Taiji guys don't like to attack first. But your inch by inch move in can hardly be called as "attack".
- There is no force that they can borrow from you.
- Taiji guy don't like to use force against force.
- ...
Those won't be any issue for Judo guys. Judo guys also like to borrow force. But they don't mind using force against force. In other words, Judo guys don't put physical limitation on themselves (such as never use brute force).
So, IMO, there is a big difference between Taiji (self restricted) and Judo (open mind).
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In sparring/fighting, one wants to listen and control their opponent from the furthest distance away, enter then finish. Ranges can be defined in various ways e.g., kicking, striking, wrestling and locking and/or safe zone, fight zone and borders.
āBoxing is the art of hitting your opponent with the maximum amount of leverage from the furthest distance possible while exposing the least of yourself.ā ā Kenny Weldon
There is a point where both fighters can touch each other. However, there is another point before contact is made where one may listen and control their opponent. I have an advantage if I can listen and control you before the "stick point," get you double weighted then enter and finish.
In MMA, Tai Chi's fighting skills lure, listen, control and dissolve can be done without bridging ...
Your comparison may be an example of don't chase hands chase the center.
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OP
OP
Subitai
White Belt
Ok, well.... John had asked me, "What do you think the difference between Taiji and Judo/wrestling?"
I can't say that I gave a full answer but I did share my initial thoughts. I'm not out to convince people my way is the only way. I think we all have our own concerns to what we think is valuable or important to us.
As for what John said about Taiji, I don't think John understood what I meant about Mohamed Ali. NOT JUST HIM BTW, anyone who can use the sweet science of boxing with good foot work is a nightmare. Someone really good at "Float like a butterfly and sting like a bee" doesn't give you a chance at all.
- you rush them they float away
- you get too close they counter punch and float away
- you wait and just try to counter a fast jab in and out... Mabe, if you're good enough
- you try to attack them and they counter sting you.
It's a dilemma, a situation that most traditionally trained people cannot figure out. That's my point.
As for what other writers out there share about MMA and fighting in general..... AS it APPLIES to using Taiji against MMA.
1) I wouldn't listen to NOT ONE DAMN opinion of them (I don't care how famous or what lineage they come from). Unless they have actually fought in MMA in a serious sense or event. It Doesn't have to be the UFC, but in someone's back yard or a park is not the same thing.
2) I don't think i'd be wrong in guessing that over 95% of the ENTIRE world practicing Tai Chi right now would end up having a Xu Xaodong moment of embarrassment. Thats being generous to the 5%.
I said what I said about it with reservations of what I think people can actually pull off. Consistently!! Meaning not just ONE master or some long ago teacher could do it.
So as far as MMA goes, as in the Modern get in the octagon with professionals are concerned. I'll believe it when I see it.
*** Not some obscure video when someone from another style does something remotely related to tai chi.
Especially when someone suggests controlling me without even touching me... It borders on Supernatural ability and don't get me started on Ling Kong jing. If being able to stop an attacker from a distance (ie not touching) was even remotely possible it would be amazing. Otherwise its pure fantasy.
If someone can Kong Jing me away and stop me without touching me, I'd quit MA forever.
I can't say that I gave a full answer but I did share my initial thoughts. I'm not out to convince people my way is the only way. I think we all have our own concerns to what we think is valuable or important to us.
As for what John said about Taiji, I don't think John understood what I meant about Mohamed Ali. NOT JUST HIM BTW, anyone who can use the sweet science of boxing with good foot work is a nightmare. Someone really good at "Float like a butterfly and sting like a bee" doesn't give you a chance at all.
- you rush them they float away
- you get too close they counter punch and float away
- you wait and just try to counter a fast jab in and out... Mabe, if you're good enough
- you try to attack them and they counter sting you.
It's a dilemma, a situation that most traditionally trained people cannot figure out. That's my point.
As for what other writers out there share about MMA and fighting in general..... AS it APPLIES to using Taiji against MMA.
1) I wouldn't listen to NOT ONE DAMN opinion of them (I don't care how famous or what lineage they come from). Unless they have actually fought in MMA in a serious sense or event. It Doesn't have to be the UFC, but in someone's back yard or a park is not the same thing.
2) I don't think i'd be wrong in guessing that over 95% of the ENTIRE world practicing Tai Chi right now would end up having a Xu Xaodong moment of embarrassment. Thats being generous to the 5%.
I said what I said about it with reservations of what I think people can actually pull off. Consistently!! Meaning not just ONE master or some long ago teacher could do it.
So as far as MMA goes, as in the Modern get in the octagon with professionals are concerned. I'll believe it when I see it.
*** Not some obscure video when someone from another style does something remotely related to tai chi.
Especially when someone suggests controlling me without even touching me... It borders on Supernatural ability and don't get me started on Ling Kong jing. If being able to stop an attacker from a distance (ie not touching) was even remotely possible it would be amazing. Otherwise its pure fantasy.
If someone can Kong Jing me away and stop me without touching me, I'd quit MA forever.
Yes, I agree with everything you said. I believe you misunderstood my reply. I just added to what you said.
I agree. John may have misunderstood your point. But John answered your question (which may have been rhetorical) in his own way, not necessarily disagreeing with you (like me).
I agree. And to discuss further your point, Ali is listening to and controlling his opponent before contact with footwork, feints, deception, pressure/non-pressure, etc. Itās the same non-touch concept but by using different methods and skills to achieve it.
You may have misread the 2 videos by NTUMA and Taichi Lab. I donāt believe they were talking about using Taiji against MMA (nor was I). They were talking about a Taiji concept of controlling their opponent before a āstick pointā without touch. However, Taiji and MMA, boxing and basketball may have differences in interpretation, skills and techniques in following that concept.
They used Michael Jordan (championship basketball player), Lyoto Machida (UFC champion) and Mike Tyson (World Champion) as examples of controlling without touch. None of them are considered fake.
I donāt disagree.
I agree. However, they were not talking about āSupernatural abilities," only proven non-contact skills against non-compliant opponents used by Jordan, Machida and Mike Tysonā¦
This foot sweep, in a MMA fight, uses the five skills mentioned and seen in the two MMA step drills and judo clip. In BJ Penn vs Lyoto Machida, Machida...
1. controls distance with push/pull footwork, then circles left luring Penn to turn and follow (control) 2. hand fights and listens for Penn to weight the back foot 3. neutralizes incoming force by attacking with foot sweep:
