If you were making a sport for weapon disarms, what would the rules be?
I would be a little shocked and very disappointed if this were not the case.
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Airsoft is a viable alterntive, its cheaper and works just as good. and it may be safer too, given you literally cant load or fire a live cartridge, i think thats a risk in simunitions and similar.
So you can maybe just pull out airsoft guns after a day of shooting, as opposed to needing to make sure no one brings their actual firearms to a firearm grappling event. You need the same safety equipment of googles/mask though.
this is Gas blow back airsoft weapons by the way. AEG's, not so much. (its just people asosisate airsoft with a game, so decide to mock that, despite the fact the U.S army uses paintball and laser tag for training, ina similar vein some people mock the fact some militaries use virtual simulators for training and call them a "game")
You're actually making sense now. Good job. I mean that.
Simunition training can be extremely useful, but it is true extra precautions must be taken. But for clarity, it's not really all that easy to load the wrong ammo. Simunition guns all fire a near-9mm round. This round won't fire in a real gun, and you can't load a real round in a gun that's been modified for simmunition. For handguns, you swap the barrel. So with reasonable caution, extra safety checks, and shooters who are not totally new, simunition can be used with reasonable safety.
The company only recently began selling to civilians, and it's still quite restricted, so that can also be a factor in choosing what to use for simulated firearms training.
Depends on the simulator. Playing Call of Duty is not going to do anything useful. Just like watching YouTube isn't an effective way to learn to fight. Paintball markers lack recoil, and of course aimpoints and such are enormously different, but they can be used to train things like movement and covering fire.
It's important to note that those groups use these tools as SUPPLEMENTS to training with real weapons and ammo. Just as books and videos can well be used to supplement an instructors training.
Airsoft is cheaper. But I would not say its just as good. Having trained with both, there is a world of difference between the two. Airsoft does not have the same feel (sorry gas blow back on an airsoft is nothing like the recoil from shooting).
The people making simunitions already thought about preventing live ammunition being used by accident. When you convert your gun to simunition, it will not physically take real ammo.
When you hold your event, no one brings their own weapons. The simunition guns are provided at the event. Now you don't have to worry about who is bringing what. People safely train with these things all the time, in military and police training as well as in civilian training. They are proven to be a safe and effective way to train this stuff. But, lets not let facts get in the way...
Most of that seems irrelevant to my point, which is that one of those three options: both people not having weapons, doesn't make sense. For the reasons i already stated.
What would probably make the most sense (although not the only option) would be a situation where one person is armed, one is not. And have points determined similar to volleyball, where each "point", however it's determined swaps the person holding the weapon, and you can only score if you "win" the point while not holding the weapon.
Then different specific rules for different weapons.
Martial D
Senior Master
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There are a few diffrent types of simulation round, UTM is one. I think the companies use diffrent conversion kits, there is maybe one semi unsafe one that will at least fire a real round, but the ending result would be something along the lines of it just exploding inside the firearm.
the issues only in the conversion kits, due to barrels being extra cost, maagzines being extra cost etc. So it just depend show much and what is changed. If its built ground up, it should be made not to accept live rounds. (which i belive simunitions and UTM make training firearms AND conversion kits, or last i looked they did)
Its more about attitude, everything has pros and cons and limitations.
Airsoft is more popular for training than paintball due to the fact airsoft has more and is easier to make replica and honest replicas of firearms as opposed to paintball.(manual of arms) The paint ball "replicas" are meh. Honour system is null if used for training.
Hell if you analyse simunitions, paintball, MILES and airsoft, youd find the limitations are similar. Airsoft, sim, and paint ball have the same range, the same sort fo thing is cover for them thats not for actual bullets. and MILES is a laser.
to be fair for airsoft youd get just the HEMA and LARP argument just shootingified, as the logic in airsoft of avoiding getting shot while shooting people is pretty much what you do in tactical shooting. (with the sport caviate applied)
The last point is where i think we get confused. When i say "learn from a book" i dont mean just read it (i dont think anyone does), i mean learn from it. That is if its about punching, you read it once, get up and follow it step by step and practise punching the air or on a target. Its only a issue if you get stuck, then you could ask in a forum like this, or try and find videos on mistakes.
They key is just the book needs to be made for it and for your level. There is only so much a instructor, book, video etc can do for you, its still fundmenetally on you to understand and apply the information, you interprite the information and apply it to yourself.
Just apply this sort of process: Some people go off and hunt to learn to shoot, some get taught by their family/freind and some hire somone to teach them. None of these are abolutely the best, all have pros and cons, and work for diffrent people. and in some cases you dont have a choice.
Lets be compeltely fair, whats the diffrence between a 7th degre black belt holding pads, to your freind? Or whats the diffrence in punching a heavy bag at a dojo, or your house? Basically youd pay somone to go "yeah like this" when you get stuck, if you can learn it from a book, then no need to pay somone, not everyone can learn it from a book. People have made study groups to basically figure out fighting with some people who are intrested in doing the same where no other school or teacher exist as well. All martial arts came from scratch, we have some innate fighting ability programmed into us.
Granted this is all heavily reliant on the skill, not all skills are the same and not all people learn all sort of sub groups of skill the same, or even learn the same. I prefer reading backed up by pictures and videos, and doing.
And there are also so many caviates and what ifs in education to begin with, and many things are subject to argument.
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See this is the issue, the sport is not the test to see if it works. Youd presumably do the test before and base the sport upon your findings, which makes the presence of a knife optional. the sport is there to get you to do what you belive works. (based on the presumed test)
And if we started to go down specfic methods of disarm and systems it would deviate from the point of the post and into "this and that doesnt work", the biomechnics of manupulating the arm dont change because of a knife being there or not, and some sytems have you ignore the knife and just deal with the arm, and some have you deal with the knife first, as far as i recall.
Then we have the semntics point of what is meant by disarm, do i(or you) mean literally disarm, or fight somone while unarmed who is armed, or something like i previously mentioned a system that teaches you to deal with the arm first. Now id agree if you physically needed to move something out of the persons hand as part of a sport, then youd need that there, but nothing says you have to or not have to.
and id also agree if we were testing disarms and weapon fighting technhiques in general we'd need weapons or reasonable stand ins. but we arent doing that.
So its not really silly as i have articualted my point, and neutrally explore it with and without the presence of a weapon, as i do belive you can make this work with or without one. And that ones reset as far as i am concerned.
if you dont get it, you dont get it, but i get it. and i doubt anything further will make you get it if this post doesnt.
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Thats because i techncially replied to martial D for most of that, and i probbly should have replied to him, but i basically rehashed that with my most recent reply to him, so this should be 100% focused on your point.
@lklawson I dont know how tanto randroi scores, can you explain? Is it how many times the person gets stabbed, or how many times the person pulls off a grapple?
Also, on your sport comment earlier, i recently saw a video where somone drew a knife and used it reverse grip style, it did not end well for the person wtih the knife it was a small folder, it sort of amuses me how many people dont maintain distance with a knife and dont use it in a fencing style to give them an advantage. Its weird, it wasnt even a quick draw deal, he took it out, unfolded it and put it in a reverse grip, he had plenty of time to switch grip, unless he pulled it out and it was upside down so went with it.
Im going to use Tanto Randori as a base now i know it exists and it is pretty much the one party is armed variation of this. Pending how this works would lead us to the next sort of phase. I do think it shouldnt be a commercilsied sport as such but should be a in hosue for fun and training one, and i think it would sort of be off to reward somone for how many times they can stab a unarmed man.
Doesnt HEMA do the swap system for disarm training? although the swap system could work, you pull off a disarm, you get the knife, and you dont have the issue of drilling it in your head to hand the knife BACK to the person you took it from. Edit: Not nessisarily just HEMA, just HEMA is on the brain because of the HEMA discussion.
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Okay, lets be completely fair. Only someone who learned completely out of a book would see an equivalence between the two. If you don't see the difference, it may be because somethings don't come through a book.
If you could ever have this guy hold pads for you to hit, you will learn quite a bit. (and by that, I mean 30 minutes hitting the pads he holds, would teach more than hitting the pads your buddy holds for 20 years...)
lklawson
Grandmaster
"Competition – TOMIKI AIKIDO" Competition – TOMIKI AIKIDO
Some of them might, a lot of them don't. There's too much variation to make a call Hema does this sort of description.
Peace favor your sword (mobile)
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So apart from that is literallly one sentence out of like 50 connected into a point:
Got to 2:00 in the video (not going to watch past). So breaking this down into two parts, as there are two parts here.
First: We have the "teaching portion", he only taugh the basics of punching from what i got to, thats easy enough to learn if you get a relivent and good study material. Be it a book, video, book series or video series etc.
Second: We have the "holding the pads" portion. The pads portion is not the same as the "teaching portion" the pads portion is where you put what you have "taught" them into practise to see if they understand it, and to work out any kinks or for them to work out any kinks. And frankly anyone can hold pads for this purpose, if you even choose pads, you can choose a heavy bag or double end bag for a similar result.
To put it bluntly, you are doing what i said and that is paying for somone to go "no this is how you do it" for a skill you can realstically learn yourself from a good book or video. And yes anyone can hold pads, there is hardly any secret(and most learnt by trial and error anyway), and the basics of punching is hardly so advanced to illude most people to be requiring a teacher.
Now if you get stuck you may need somone to go "no this is how you do it", but until that point as long as you have the right materials you should be good. As stated everyone learns diffrently, and not everyone has the same options.
You may be acting on the mis udnerstnding i wrote in the original that is "learn from a book" does not mean "only read a book". it doesnt mean seek out instruction nesssasirly either.
Hopefully that explained, as i am needing to leave it here.
Martial D
Senior Master
I get it. It's just..kinda nonsensical. Everything changes if there is a weapon present. There are no functional weapon disarms that can be translated into competition without a weapon to disarm. If there is no weapon it's something else..so why even include the term "weapon disarm"?
Your idea that the movements are the same without a weapon would literally never be true, and even if they were there would be no way to gauge if it worked for points or however it was scored without one.
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A few issues, doesnt that contradict a weapon being a extension of your body?
If a weapon is a extension, then the mechnics for fighting with it, and fighting it shouldnt change. Only your attitude should change, how you take the arm doesnt really.
As for calling it "disarms", thats just what i viewed its use as, i didnt start the sematics in martial arts only play in the game.
Rat, have you trained extensively empty hand versus knife? Have you practiced this with partners in an unscripted manner enough to appreciate the difference between empty hand, and to learn what is of concern?
This is an area that is of huge interest to me, and one I've practiced a lot. I'm by no means an expert on it, but... A lot of what you're saying here sounds like pure speculation on the part of someone who doesn't really know the nature of empty hand versus knife, and is just speaking from imagination.
I want to point out just a few things that I think you're overlooking:
1. The attacker absolutely must have a knife, if you're going to learn to defend and counter against it. Are you aware of how much extra reach a knife gives you? The sorts of parries you're used to using against punches are not going to work well against a knife -- you must meet a knife earlier and take it offline more, because it can reach around your defense much easier. At the same time, though, this makes you more committed, and opens you up elsewhere, which makes it easier for the knife user to follow your flow and cut or thrust around your extended defense. This is very difficult to get right.
2. The defender (empty hand) must be focused not only on disarming, but on counter attacking simultaneously. Finger jabs to the eyes are often employed because you get a good reaction out of your attacker, and because they give you a bit of extra range and allow you to turn the fore-arm in a safer orientation in case you are cut. Slaps, fists, palms, knife hands, and a variety of limb destructions with passes are also often employed and very useful. But whatever you use, you must not just chase the hands and go only for a disarm: disarms work best after you've smacked someone really hard. And if you're just chasing the knife hand and not also giving him something to think about / defend against, you are very likely to just become a puppet. Your attacker will get you to commit in one way, and then take your opening very quickly.
3. In a sport context, many of these things may become less effective, because of a psychological reasons also:
In reality, if someone is attacking you with a knife, they intend to stick it in you and do you harm. The aim is to kill you. Attacks will be on average more aggressive and direct, and in some cases (but not all) committed -- though, you should count on them being very quickly reset. In a sportive context, one's aim becomes different -- it becomes not to get disarmed. As the knife user, it would make way more sense to be extremely cautious and uncommitted and focus on weapon retention and baiting and counter cutting, which is quite a bit different from the behavior that you would encounter in reality.
4. Do you know how knife disarms work? Like, how do you even know you've disarmed someone if they don't have a weapon in their hand? To say nothing of knowing if you got stabbed or cut. Disarms often apply leverage to the weapon itself. But guess what: they don't always work. Often times they don't. How do you practice this if there is no weapon to apply pressure to, and if you don't know if you're getting cut or not, and if there is no weapon that can be immobilized or stripped or ejected from the hand? How do you know that your technique did not get you cut and actually resulted in a disarm? None of this makes sense if you don't actually have a weapon in the hand of the attacker.
Another important part of knife defense in real life is not necessarily to try to fight an opponent with a knife with your bare hands (which you really don't want to do), but to actually create an opportunity to disengage or access your own weapon, if you carry one, or any kind of makeshift weapon that may be at hand.
In any case, I suggest you get a buddy and a practice knife and have at it. You'll very quickly start to appreciate what many people have been saying throughout this thread.
This is an area that is of huge interest to me, and one I've practiced a lot. I'm by no means an expert on it, but... A lot of what you're saying here sounds like pure speculation on the part of someone who doesn't really know the nature of empty hand versus knife, and is just speaking from imagination.
I want to point out just a few things that I think you're overlooking:
1. The attacker absolutely must have a knife, if you're going to learn to defend and counter against it. Are you aware of how much extra reach a knife gives you? The sorts of parries you're used to using against punches are not going to work well against a knife -- you must meet a knife earlier and take it offline more, because it can reach around your defense much easier. At the same time, though, this makes you more committed, and opens you up elsewhere, which makes it easier for the knife user to follow your flow and cut or thrust around your extended defense. This is very difficult to get right.
2. The defender (empty hand) must be focused not only on disarming, but on counter attacking simultaneously. Finger jabs to the eyes are often employed because you get a good reaction out of your attacker, and because they give you a bit of extra range and allow you to turn the fore-arm in a safer orientation in case you are cut. Slaps, fists, palms, knife hands, and a variety of limb destructions with passes are also often employed and very useful. But whatever you use, you must not just chase the hands and go only for a disarm: disarms work best after you've smacked someone really hard. And if you're just chasing the knife hand and not also giving him something to think about / defend against, you are very likely to just become a puppet. Your attacker will get you to commit in one way, and then take your opening very quickly.
3. In a sport context, many of these things may become less effective, because of a psychological reasons also:
In reality, if someone is attacking you with a knife, they intend to stick it in you and do you harm. The aim is to kill you. Attacks will be on average more aggressive and direct, and in some cases (but not all) committed -- though, you should count on them being very quickly reset. In a sportive context, one's aim becomes different -- it becomes not to get disarmed. As the knife user, it would make way more sense to be extremely cautious and uncommitted and focus on weapon retention and baiting and counter cutting, which is quite a bit different from the behavior that you would encounter in reality.
4. Do you know how knife disarms work? Like, how do you even know you've disarmed someone if they don't have a weapon in their hand? To say nothing of knowing if you got stabbed or cut. Disarms often apply leverage to the weapon itself. But guess what: they don't always work. Often times they don't. How do you practice this if there is no weapon to apply pressure to, and if you don't know if you're getting cut or not, and if there is no weapon that can be immobilized or stripped or ejected from the hand? How do you know that your technique did not get you cut and actually resulted in a disarm? None of this makes sense if you don't actually have a weapon in the hand of the attacker.
Another important part of knife defense in real life is not necessarily to try to fight an opponent with a knife with your bare hands (which you really don't want to do), but to actually create an opportunity to disengage or access your own weapon, if you carry one, or any kind of makeshift weapon that may be at hand.
In any case, I suggest you get a buddy and a practice knife and have at it. You'll very quickly start to appreciate what many people have been saying throughout this thread.
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Let's see if I can put this into a short explanation.
If I'm hitting pads, and you are holding the pads, I'm almost entirely dependent upon my own knowledge to identify and correct issues. I can't see me, so I can't see where I've opened myself up for a counter, etc. If Freddie Roach, or dvcochran, or drop bear's coach, or anyone else with significant training and knowledge (especially in how to recognize and correct others' issues) is holding those pads, I'm going to get a stream of feedback. They'll know when to adjust those pads to let me feel where I'm almost over-extended. They'll be able to move the pads a bit to exaggerate an opening I keep creating. They'll also know when to let me work on the thing I'm focused on, and fix another problem later.
And that's without getting into the fact that just putting the pads in the right place for each strike is a skill. A beginner holding pads tends to put them vaguely kinda where they think they belong. An experienced pad-holder tends to hit locations that actually mimic good targets.
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