if you could change a thing or things.....

[TSDTexan]

1.
That to me is a knifehand - the 'tool' is the side of your open hand, from little finger (pinky?) to wrist.
2.
A reverse knifehand is from index finger to wrist with you thumb tucked out of the way (is that ridge hand to others?)
3.
"Straight fingertip" is what I think of when you say "spearhand" - mechanics like a 'normal' punch, but using the fingertips?

in karate number one is a Shuto Uchi, knifehand strike or Sonnal Chigi or Sudo in Korean. can be palm up..

or
palm down.

number two is a Haito Uchi, or ridge hand or in korean Sonnaldeung Bakkat Chigi or Yeogsudo

number three is a Nukite Uchi spearhand or Gwansu

 

[TSDTexan]

But if I use my outer forearm I can block in an inward or outward direction. They can't both be outside blocks, surely?

And an open hand block - well, I can do a knifehand or a palm block inward or outward, or rising (upward) or pressing (downward) or pushing (forward), or say an upset palm (low to mid section, palm up - really more of a catch but termed as a block). I can't see the logic in lumping them all under one name... Unless you do have different names that all include the term "open hand"?

It's an outside block if crossed the centerline to end, in front of, the sholder the blocking arm is attached to. Wrist direction doesn't matter.
in the first gif... the closed fisted arm is doing a Uchi Uke... outside block.

wrist facing away (as seen in NahaTe, mawashi uke)

It is an inside block, if it starts outside, stops directly in front of, or crosses the centerline in the direction of the other arm.

Such as the open palmed arm... in this one. Soto Uke.

When you perform the Uchi Uke simultaneously with the Soto Uke... you perform a pass parry, and open a gate on your opponent.

 

[pdg]

in karate number one is a Shuto Uchi, knifehand strike or Sonnal Chigi or Sudo in Korean. can be palm up..
View attachment 21627
or
palm down.
View attachment 21626

number two is a Haito Uchi, or ridge hand or in korean Sonnaldeung Bakkat Chigi or Yeogsudo
View attachment 21625

number three is a Nukite Uchi spearhand or Gwansu

And this shows direct translations to and from Korean aren't always consistent...

No.1, knifehand strike - sonkal taerigi.

No.2, ridgehand strike - sonkaldeung taerigi.

No.3, spearhand - straight fingertip thrust - sun sonkut tulgi.

 

[pdg]

It's an outside block if crossed the centerline to end, in front of, the sholder the blocking arm is attached to. Wrist direction doesn't matter.
in the first gif... the closed fisted arm is doing a Uchi Uke... outside block.

View attachment 21629
wrist facing away (as seen in NahaTe, mawashi uke)
View attachment 21628


It is an inside block, if it starts outside, stops directly in front of, or crosses the centerline in the direction of the other arm.

Such as the open palmed arm... in this one. Soto Uke.

View attachment 21629

When you perform the Uchi Uke simultaneously with the Soto Uke... you perform a pass parry, and open a gate on your opponent.

To me, all 3 of those GIFs are showing an outward block.

I can't say if they're inside or outside without knowing what they are blocking.


Edit: wrist direction only matters to describe the part of the arm used for blocking, whether it's inner or outer forearm.

The first gif is an inner forearm outward block.

The second would be an outer forearm outward block, if the hand was closed to suggest the arm is the tool.

As the hand is open, that suggests it's either a knifehand or palm block, where again the wrist direction only matters because it physically has to follow what the hand is doing.

 

[TSDTexan]

To me, all 3 of those GIFs are showing an outward block.

I can't say if they're inside or outside without knowing what they are blocking.


Edit: wrist direction only matters to describe the part of the arm used for blocking, whether it's inner or outer forearm.

The first gif is an inner forearm outward block.

The second would be an outer forearm outward block, if the hand was closed to suggest the arm is the tool.

As the hand is open, that suggests it's either a knifehand or palm block, where again the wrist direction only matters because it physically has to follow what the hand is doing.

In the second, it is a forearm block, with the hand ready to grab and pull, or to strike up the same line... see the first video opening around the 07 second mark.
pay attention to the left hand.

Here is the same block being combined with Makiwara striking. In the beginning of this video.

In the third...
it's a palm block, that redirects and incoming strike, into position for the outside block to windshield wiper it all the way offline.


inside block
The starting position is the same arm, same side moving and clearing the center, to end across the body.

If the right arm is starting on the right side of the it will cross over, ending on the left side.

If the left arm is starting on the left side of the it will cross over, ending on the right side.

 

[Earl Weiss]

"Outer, outside, inside all in the same block description? It took me a while to get in step with inside to outside and vice-versa. Do you do the outer forearm Outward outside block (closed hand) often?

As with many things in MA the terms are defined within the system and do not necessarily cross over to other systems let alone other languages.

General Choi defines terms thusly for arm blocks. (If you don't use his system or don't care you may want to stop reading now. )

1. Outer - Refers to part of forearm making contact. Small finger side of arm.
2. Outward - Direction of travel* (From center line toward shoulder line.)
3. Outside - Can only be determined in relation to where opponent is blocked. Without opponent present can not be determined. Position Example: Opponent facing you right foot forward right hand extended palm down in a punch at your shoulder level . You step right foot forward right arm moves outward and your outer forearm contacts the Small finger side of their arm. You are to the outside of them and this is an outside block.*
* Note, terminology is further refined so that half and side facing techniques are denoted as "Side" So the direction of arm travel is not necessarily used in the formal block name. The block described in # 3 above is done half facing and is technically named a "Side Block" with outer forearm. Direction of travel - outward is simply a characteristic used to describe it.

 

[Earl Weiss]

But, the "obverse" bit depends on the stance. If I have my right leg forward in walking stance it's obverse (initially, pretty much everything it taught obverse). If I have my right leg forward in L stance, using my right arm makes it a reverse technique (so, low section reverse outer forearm outward outside/inside block).

Simple eh?

This is due to the naming convention for stances (One of the things General Choi could have done better but I heard it stems from translation issues)
Stances are named for the lead leg when weight distribution is equal and for the leg with the most weight when unequal. Since L stance has more weight on the rear leg it is named for the rear leg. So, using a limb that is on the side not named for the stance is a "reverse" technique.

 

[Earl Weiss]

In L stance, the majority of the weight (75%) is on the rear leg.

.

70% but whose gonna measure

 

[pdg]

70% but whose gonna measure

Looks like I'm getting the bathroom scales out again



Edit: I knew it was 70/30, but sometimes even I make mistakes

Also, measuring it - technically you'd have to slightly alter your stance position to maintain 70/30 when doing a reverse punch as opposed to a reverse inward knifehand, because I'm quite sure the difference in arm position could throw the balance off by at least 5%...

 

[pdg]

In the second, it is a forearm block, with the hand ready to grab and pull

Which is almost what 'we' would term a hooking block.

In the third...
it's a palm block, that redirects and incoming strike, into position for the outside block to windshield wiper it all the way offline.

I'll be entirely honest, I didn't notice the palm move was part one

So in that case, it would make it an inward palm block and outward inner forearm block combination in 'our' terms.

inside block
The starting position is the same arm, same side moving and clearing the center, to end across the body.

If the right arm is starting on the right side of the it will cross over, ending on the left side.

If the left arm is starting on the left side of the it will cross over, ending on the right side.

And this is where my point lies...

Both of those are inward blocks (they start on the side of the arm being used, and travel inward toward or past centre).

Whether they are inside or outside depends upon how you are countering your opponent's move, and with no opponent present can only be classified as inside or outside in an imaginary context (I'm pretending my invisible opponent is throwing a right hand punch, so I'll use my left arm to perform an inward outer forearm outside block, or my right arm to perform an inward outer forearm inside block).

 

[pdg]

This is due to the naming convention for stances (One of the things General Choi could have done better but I heard it stems from translation issues)
Stances are named for the lead leg when weight distribution is equal and for the leg with the most weight when unequal. Since L stance has more weight on the rear leg it is named for the rear leg. So, using a limb that is on the side not named for the stance is a "reverse" technique.

Whether or not translation problems were a factor I'm not sure "better" is the actual term I'd use. Just different. Possibly easier to translate to other arts.

Sure, it's initially confusing to some but once you understand the formula and how to apply it becomes extremely descriptive and very consistent.

Well, until you try explaining it to someone used to using a different formula...

 

[pdg]

@TSDTexan - what did you dislike about this post?

I'm not uppity, just curious as to why you disliked me explaining where the terminology differs...

Which is almost what 'we' would term a hooking block.



I'll be entirely honest, I didn't notice the palm move was part one

So in that case, it would make it an inward palm block and outward inner forearm block combination in 'our' terms.



And this is where my point lies...

Both of those are inward blocks (they start on the side of the arm being used, and travel inward toward or past centre).

Whether they are inside or outside depends upon how you are countering your opponent's move, and with no opponent present can only be classified as inside or outside in an imaginary context (I'm pretending my invisible opponent is throwing a right hand punch, so I'll use my left arm to perform an inward outer forearm outside block, or my right arm to perform an inward outer forearm inside block).

 

[TSDTexan]

@TSDTexan - what did you dislike about this post?

I'm not uppity, just curious as to why you disliked me explaining where the terminology differs...

I do that sometimes on my phone, it's a thing.
Martialtalk buttons have misrepresented my likes as dislikes, a number of times, over the years.

It was not a dislike! it was a like. My ape fat fingers vs tiny little buttons.

Reposting this related image.

I prefer my laptop. (new image to this subject)

 

[pdg]

I do that sometimes on my phone, it's a thing.
Martialtalk buttons have misrepresented my likes as dislikes, a number of times, over the years.

It was not a dislike! it was a like. My ape fat fingers vs tiny little buttons.

Ah, I've hit any number of ratings when scrolling on my phone

I did think that maybe I'd worded the post so that you interpreted it as me trying to "correct your wrong terminology" or something!

 

[dvcochran]

I said I'd find it

Breaking down the spinning wheel kick

???

 

[dvcochran]

1.
I would branch out a Sub TKD branch that did full contact sparing and competition.

Like Kyokushin.
A style of stand-up, full contact karate, founded in 1964 by Korean-Japanese Masutatsu Oyama.

Since we are asking for wishes.... and impossible things...

2.
That the Koreans would look past the ultranationalist PR and historical revisionism that has truncated TKD from its Okinawan upstream source.
2b.
The Koreans would send a delegation to Okinawa and train there and restore the lost (at least in transmission to Korea) bunkai, Uchinadi tegumi drills, and Kubudo training to Korean Hongsoodo/Tangsoodo.

3.
Hand strikes get counted, or count higher in WTF Tournament rules, by the WTF Standards Body.

4.
That the KKW would recognize Tangsoodo formally as a parallel branch (parallel to TKD) in the KKW.

Codify a tsd based course, and certify it as KKW TSD.

Allow TSD folks a route besides becoming a Subakdo Subsidiary of a corporation that likes to sue you for citing that your art was created by GM Hwang Kee at his Moo Duk Institute.

5.
Reconciliation between ITF and WTF&KKW in exactly the same way the KKW would recognize TSD.

Another way of saying of creating a branch under the KKW umbrella that recognizes the ITF curriculum, and bring ITF GMs in house to supervise the master instructor courses, and ITF curriculum.

6.
A KKW non sport SD curriculum that draws something from All Korean HSD, TSD, TKD branches
but taught in a non traditional format... like Krav Maga. Almost 90% Hosinsul, weapon defenses and weapons training. Something that isn't all flashy kicks that is quick to deploy.


That's a start.

I think 2 & 2b are ridicules. You be controlled by a "communist" government for decades and see how you feel. TKD evolved from much more than just Okinawa.
3 will never happen at least partly because of the strong intent to be different form boxing. Scoring has changed over the years.
4 is a great idea I have advocated for often.
5 The fracture started with the ITF. With the success and differences of both systems I have a hard time seeing it happen.
6 I think a lot of it is the responsibility of the instructor(s) to offer a broad range of skills. I do think a purely WTF school lacks a lot and is a poor representation of TKD from my perspective.

 

[pdg]

I would be interested to hear other peoples interpretation of this. In 30+ years I have never heard of any front hand technique being called a reverse. I very

I said I'd find it

Breaking down the spinning wheel kick

???

You and I had a very similar discussion in the thread I linked.

 

[dvcochran]

You and I had a very similar discussion in the thread I linked.

Well, there was a lot of semantics back and forth but my post was about kicks and yours about blocks.

 

[pdg]

The fracture started with the ITF.

That is a hotly contested viewpoint and one that is hard to substantiate when you take into consideration that the ITF predates the kukkiwon by a number of years.

How can one organisation (the ITF) be responsible for "the split" when the organisation it supposedly split from (the KKW) was created in direct competition and because of political and idealogical differences?

One could say in fact that the government of the time liked the idea of a national martial art, liked the name and liked the showmanship but didn't support the desire of that organisation's founder to promote full reconciliation between the north and south...

 

[TSDTexan]

That is a hotly contested viewpoint and one that is hard to substantiate when you take into consideration that the ITF predates the kukkiwon by a number of years.

How can one organisation (the ITF) be responsible for "the split" when the organisation it supposedly split from (the KKW) was created in direct competition and because of political and idealogical differences?

One could say in fact that the government of the time liked the idea of a national martial art, liked the name and liked the showmanship but didn't support the desire of that organisation's founder to promote full reconciliation between the north and south...

Ahhh... the sad squabbling of the Kwans, and the ultranationalist Government and ultraconformist citizens.... and the Korean war...

The truth about who split from who.... is boring, and short sided.

Hwang Kee did well to run away from that nonsense after a while. Too bad the family business is more important than keeping your word to people. No disrespect to a great man, RIP.

Not to be accused of racism... because I dearly love a fair number of Korean individuals. They are a beautiful people, with a great culture....

But there exists a category of insanity unlike anything on planet earth when it comes to The Politics of Korean Martial Arts.