if you could change a thing or things.....

[pdg]

I'm usually late getting home - generally the only time I'm not the last to leave is when I don't turn up...

 

[Earl Weiss]

Ah! I call the soft part of the forearm (palm-side) the "inside" or "inner". It makes much more sense with your definition. So my "outer block" (high closed-hand block to the outside of the shoulder) is both "inner block" and "outer block" to you, since I allow it both palm-in and palm-out.

FWIW in the Chang Hon system the palm side of the forearm is "Under forearm" and the knuckle side is the "Back Forearm".

 

[Earl Weiss]

Well, I now have part of my "Monday night question time" sorted

I was happy with my interpretation of inner/outer/inward/outward - but @Earl Weiss has now added inside and outside which I now must research as to whether our ITF branch uses the same nomenclature...

The terminology is from General Choi's text. I think I saw an article on this in Totally TKD called "Can You talk TKD?" if you PM me with your e-mail I will send you a copy. For General Choi, things can get a little more interesting as to when he uses "Inward" in a name to designate technique stops at chest line. You could have a block that moves inward but is called a " Front Block" to designate it stops at center / solar plexus line . (Vol III)

 

[Earl Weiss]

If you're like me, two or three hours of research should be sufficient to answer any relatively unimportant question.

If you follow general Choi's text and have access to hard copy or volume III it's less than a 10 minute exercise to find these terms in that volume.

 

[Earl Weiss]

whether our ITF branch uses the same nomenclature...

What branch would that be?

 

[pdg]

The terminology is from General Choi's text. I think I saw an article on this in Totally TKD called "Can You talk TKD?" if you PM me with your e-mail I will send you a copy. For General Choi, things can get a little more interesting as to when he uses "Inward" in a name to designate technique stops at chest line. You could have a block that moves inward but is called a " Front Block" to designate it stops at center / solar plexus line . (Vol III)

I found the references in the edition of the encyclopaedia I have, but it's an old edition and some things I've tried to research before have been changed or superceded in more recent editions - and also reinterpreted...

This means I usually have the personal need to seek clarification from my seniors so I can get the current info as well as the historical aspect - both of which interest me.

I'll send you a pm, as I'm definitely interested.

What branch would that be?

Directly (at least I believe directly), UKITF.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If you follow general Choi's text and have access to hard copy or volume III it's less than a 10 minute exercise to find these terms in that volume.

That's not nearly enough time to spend on such an insignificant issue. Clearly, I'd need to read four Wikipedia articles, watch a half dozen videos about Wing Chun (why? I don't know - they show up when I look at TKD videos sometimes), and start a new thread on MT.

 

[dvcochran]

But if I use my outer forearm I can block in an inward or outward direction. They can't both be outside blocks, surely?

And an open hand block - well, I can do a knifehand or a palm block inward or outward, or rising (upward) or pressing (downward) or pushing (forward), or say an upset palm (low to mid section, palm up - really more of a catch but termed as a block). I can't see the logic in lumping them all under one name... Unless you do have different names that all include the term "open hand"?

Why can't they? The motion of the arm is to the outside, regardless of the hand position. You don't use the exclusively the hand to block with anyway (closed hand) so hand position is not as important as arm motion. Same is true for an open hand, whatever, that is the position or condition of the hand, it has nothing to do with the arm motion. IMHO. I suppose I can see some conflict with open hand blocks, but a high or rising block is so named because of the motion of the arm same is true for a down or low block.

 

[dvcochran]

But if I use my outer forearm I can block in an inward or outward direction. They can't both be outside blocks, surely?

And an open hand block - well, I can do a knifehand or a palm block inward or outward, or rising (upward) or pressing (downward) or pushing (forward), or say an upset palm (low to mid section, palm up - really more of a catch but termed as a block). I can't see the logic in lumping them all under one name... Unless you do have different names that all include the term "open hand"?

Yes, there is, to the best of my knowledge, a unique name for each block. In generic sections maybe? There are many flavors of high, low, middle, inside, and outside blocks among other (palm, pressing, etc...). And some I am sure I am forgetting.
When you teach/learn your first form what do you call the first learned block?

 

[pdg]

Why can't they? The motion of the arm is to the outside, regardless of the hand position.

The point is, that it's not.

With an outward block, the arm moves from around the centreline to or slightly past the shoulder line.

With an inward block, the arm moves from outside the shoulder line in towards the centreline.

So, an inward block moves inward, an outward block moves outward, a downward block moves downward and a rising block moves upward.

The hand is unimportant, except that the orientation of the hand dictates whether the inner or outer forearm is being used. Or if the blocking tool is the hand.

That said, I did confirm that I can in fact use the terminology "outer forearm inward outside block" perfectly legitimately, or "inner forearm outward inside block"

 

[dvcochran]

The point is, that it's not.

With an outward block, the arm moves from around the centreline to or slightly past the shoulder line.

With an inward block, the arm moves from outside the shoulder line in towards the centreline.

So, an inward block moves inward, an outward block moves outward, a downward block moves downward and a rising block moves upward.

The hand is unimportant, except that the orientation of the hand dictates whether the inner or outer forearm is being used. Or if the blocking tool is the hand.

That said, I did confirm that I can in fact use the terminology "outer forearm inward outside block" perfectly legitimately, or "inner forearm outward inside block"

My simple mind again. We are saying much the same thing(s) until you get to the 5 word, multi-adjective vernacular using conflicting terms. "Outer, outside, inside all in the same block description? It took me a while to get in step with inside to outside and vice-versa. Do you do the outer forearm Outward outside block (closed hand) often? I have been trying to think of where we use them and can only think of a higher BB form done very slow and as a SD move I suppose. It is much to do with repetition in action and in word so it is whatever a person gets used to hearing.

 

[pdg]

When you teach/learn your first form what do you call the first learned block?

The first block generally taught is a low block.

More accurately, it's a low section outer forearm outward block.

This can be an inside block or an outside block, but I don't know which until I know what it's being used against and in which orientation.

Say I'm using my right arm against my opponent doing a snap kick with his right leg - that would now be a low section obverse outer forearm outward outside block.

My right arm against his left leg? Low section obverse outer forearm outward inside block.

But, the "obverse" bit depends on the stance. If I have my right leg forward in walking stance it's obverse (initially, pretty much everything it taught obverse). If I have my right leg forward in L stance, using my right arm makes it a reverse technique (so, low section reverse outer forearm outward outside/inside block).

Simple eh?

 

[pdg]

Do you do the outer forearm Outward outside block (closed hand) often?

Well, the low block is generally done as outer forearm outward block with a closed fist - unless it's a knifehand technique.

There's a high section obverse outward outer forearm front side block in Do-San, again in Yul-gok, and a couple of instances in higher patterns (but I'd have to look those up as I'm not at that level yet).

Those can't be classified as inside or outside though, because they're not being performed against anything.

The front arm in a forearm guarding block is doing pretty much the same thing too.

I think it's safe to say that in my class, I do these blocks as an outside technique more than anyone else, where it's used in set step sparring it's generally done as inside, mostly...

 

[dvcochran]

The first block generally taught is a low block.

More accurately, it's a low section outer forearm outward block.

This can be an inside block or an outside block, but I don't know which until I know what it's being used against and in which orientation.

Say I'm using my right arm against my opponent doing a snap kick with his right leg - that would now be a low section obverse outer forearm outward outside block.

My right arm against his left leg? Low section obverse outer forearm outward inside block.

But, the "obverse" bit depends on the stance. If I have my right leg forward in walking stance it's obverse (initially, pretty much everything it taught obverse). If I have my right leg forward in L stance, using my right arm makes it a reverse technique (so, low section reverse outer forearm outward outside/inside block).

Simple eh?

Clear as mud. So even though you are using your front arm in the L stance block you call it a reverse technique? I have never heard that one.

 

[pdg]

Clear as mud. So even though you are using your front arm in the L stance block you call it a reverse technique? I have never heard that one.

In L stance, the majority of the weight (75%) is on the rear leg.

So, left leg forward means it's a right L stance.

Because it's a right stance, (almost) anything done with the left arm (front arm) is a reverse technique.

In walking stance, the weight distribution is equal so the stance is handed by the front leg. Left leg forward means a technique done with the left hand is an obverse technique.

To add to the fun, fixed stance is like L stance but one foot length longer with equal weight distribution, so it's also handed by the lead leg.

It's great - the look of confusion if you tell someone you want an obverse block in walking stance followed by a reverse punch in L stance followed by, say, an obverse backfist in fixed stance (without stepping, just repositioning the feet slightly).

The amount of "Jackie Chan face" when you tell them afterwards it's supposed to be all done with the same hand



Then of course you have reverse kicks, which are something else entirely.

 

[dvcochran]

In L stance, the majority of the weight (75%) is on the rear leg.

So, left leg forward means it's a right L stance.

Because it's a right stance, (almost) anything done with the left arm (front arm) is a reverse technique.

In walking stance, the weight distribution is equal so the stance is handed by the front leg. Left leg forward means a technique done with the left hand is an obverse technique.

To add to the fun, fixed stance is like L stance but one foot length longer with equal weight distribution, so it's also handed by the lead leg.

It's great - the look of confusion if you tell someone you want an obverse block in walking stance followed by a reverse punch in L stance followed by, say, an obverse backfist in fixed stance (without stepping, just repositioning the feet slightly).

The amount of "Jackie Chan face" when you tell them afterwards it's supposed to be all done with the same hand



Then of course you have reverse kicks, which are something else entirely.

I would be interested to hear other peoples interpretation of this. In 30+ years I have never heard of any front hand technique being called a reverse. I very much like the KISS principal. It is hard enough to get someone to perform a technique correctly without worrying about an overly elaborate name.

 

[pdg]

I would be interested to hear other peoples interpretation of this. In 30+ years I have never heard of any front hand technique being called a reverse. I very much like the KISS principal. It is hard enough to get someone to perform a technique correctly without worrying about an overly elaborate name.

There was a discussion about the obverse / reverse thing a while back, I'll see if I can find it.

What you think of as overly elaborate I think of as increased descriptiveness.

To me, it means that if I want someone to do a specific technique (or someone wants me to do it) the name fully describes what's expected.

Now do it in Korean...


And this is why when, in class, the instructor says to do a low block then asks "what is it in Korean?" they never pick me to answer. Most other people will say "najunde makgi", or rarely "najunde bakat palmok makgi". Only me, with my OCD level of sadness would contemplate responding with "wen gunnan so najunde baro bakuro bakat palmok makgi" - and then I might point out that I'm unsure if that's entirely grammatically correct


(My mum always said I was special...)

 

[pdg]

I would be interested to hear other peoples interpretation of this. In 30+ years I have never heard of any front hand technique being called a reverse.

I said I'd find it

Breaking down the spinning wheel kick

 

[TSDTexan]

Right now if you could change a thing or a number of things on TKD what would you change?

Manny

1.
I would branch out a Sub TKD branch that did full contact sparing and competition.

Like Kyokushin.
A style of stand-up, full contact karate, founded in 1964 by Korean-Japanese Masutatsu Oyama.

Since we are asking for wishes.... and impossible things...

2.
That the Koreans would look past the ultranationalist PR and historical revisionism that has truncated TKD from its Okinawan upstream source.
2b.
The Koreans would send a delegation to Okinawa and train there and restore the lost (at least in transmission to Korea) bunkai, Uchinadi tegumi drills, and Kubudo training to Korean Hongsoodo/Tangsoodo.

3.
Hand strikes get counted, or count higher in WTF Tournament rules, by the WTF Standards Body.

4.
That the KKW would recognize Tangsoodo formally as a parallel branch (parallel to TKD) in the KKW.

Codify a tsd based course, and certify it as KKW TSD.

Allow TSD folks a route besides becoming a Subakdo Subsidiary of a corporation that likes to sue you for citing that your art was created by GM Hwang Kee at his Moo Duk Institute.

5.
Reconciliation between ITF and WTF&KKW in exactly the same way the KKW would recognize TSD.

Another way of saying of creating a branch under the KKW umbrella that recognizes the ITF curriculum, and bring ITF GMs in house to supervise the master instructor courses, and ITF curriculum.

6.
A KKW non sport SD curriculum that draws something from All Korean HSD, TSD, TKD branches
but taught in a non traditional format... like Krav Maga. Almost 90% Hosinsul, weapon defenses and weapons training. Something that isn't all flashy kicks that is quick to deploy.


That's a start.

 

[TSDTexan]

With a strike, the payload you are moving is the hand. With the block, the payload you are moving is the forearm. This is because it is a lot easier to hit a relatively still target like the neck, than a rapidly moving target like a punch.

If I do the block like a strike, then I've significantly increased the margin for error, as I have to exactly hit their arm with my hand, or I fail to block and their attack lands. Instead, I make my forearm, elbow, and knifehand into one large bar that I use to deflect the strike. If I'm 6 inches high or low, I will still block the strike. If it's just my hand, or if everything is level, then I need to be within an inch to be successful.

On the other hand, if I do a strike like the block, then I'm shortening the lever arm to make my strike more accurate, when what I need is more speed and strength. Even if I want to use the forearm instead of my hand, the goal becomes to deliver my power to a specific location, whereas with the block, the goal is to provide a barrier to my enemy.

You can hit people with a shield and you can block attacks with a sword, but that doesn't mean you want to primarily use a shield to strike or a sword to block, and all 4 combinations of weapon/technique are going to involve different motions.

Just to muddy the waters even further, you can enter on the 45° sidestepping the attack, and strike with the radius instead of the ridgehand. It's a very thick bone.... Or strike with the ulna instead of the shuto uchi or hammerfist. Of course... This is very intimate range fighting... closer than punching but not within the clinch.