if you could change a thing or things.....

[Gerry Seymour]

Found an example of one of our throws where it may be hard to back roll out of. (hopefully the youtube link at a specific time works... if not go to 7:10 and watch the next throw )

Extra credit if you recognize one of the two gentlemen doing that set of techniques... is is quite well known in the martial arts world.

Hey, what is the name you guys use for the technique used multiple times in the sequence right after that - pulling the arm straight down (sort of) to throw? We have a similar one, and I've been trying to find some videos from other arts that have it for research.

 

[wab25]

Hey, what is the name you guys use for the technique used multiple times in the sequence right after that - pulling the arm straight down (sort of) to throw? We have a similar one, and I've been trying to find some videos from other arts that have it for research.

The technique immediately following the high back fall at 7:10 is actually called Sandan Gaeshi. It takes 3 different techniques from other parts of the Shinnin List and Oku list and puts them together, with uke and tori trading slots back and forth. (tori gets countered and becomes uke then counters and becomes tori again) I believe the art you are interested in is the arm whip throw in the middle. That art we call Gyakute Gaeshi, which is a series of 3 arm whip throws. This video shows both of those techniques a bit slower and better quality video. (no Wally Jay this time though ) Gyakute Gaeshi occurs at 2:44, Sandan Gaeshi occurs at 11:14 (with Gyakute Gaeshi composing the middle segment).

If that is the art you are researching... I can look through some of the offline info I have about the DZR version, if you are interested. Hope that helps!

 

[dvcochran]

Hand strikes to the face target.

If a school purely follows the WTF TKD curriculum, it lessons the overall effectiveness as a self defense. If a WTF TKD school augments the program to include other SD aspects I think they are much more effective. I do advocate TKD (in my experience)as far and away the best style for overall fitness and many of the mental aspects of training in MA. What would I change? More transparency in the promotion schools as TKD sport schools vs. traditional, well rounded schools. If that could somehow happen then the practical reintroduction of punching the face should happen.

 

[pdg]

If a school purely follows the WTF TKD curriculum, it lessons the overall effectiveness as a self defense. If a WTF TKD school augments the program to include other SD aspects I think they are much more effective. I do advocate TKD (in my experience)as far and away the best style for overall fitness and many of the mental aspects of training in MA. What would I change? More transparency in the promotion schools as TKD sport schools vs. traditional, well rounded schools. If that could somehow happen then the practical reintroduction of punching the face should happen.

I didn't think the WTF (or more correctly these days WT) had a curriculum at all, what with being a sport governing body.

Isn't the curriculum the job of the KKW (for the schools who follow that path)?

Even then, there's more facets to TKD than just WT/KKW...

 

[Dirty Dog]

I didn't think the WTF (or more correctly these days WT) had a curriculum at all, what with being a sport governing body.

Isn't the curriculum the job of the KKW (for the schools who follow that path)?

Even then, there's more facets to TKD than just WT/KKW...

You are 100% correct. But plenty of people just don't get it.

 

[skribs]

I didn't think the WTF (or more correctly these days WT) had a curriculum at all, what with being a sport governing body.

Isn't the curriculum the job of the KKW (for the schools who follow that path)?

Even then, there's more facets to TKD than just WT/KKW...

From what I can tell, there is a very heavy link between KKW and WTF. Most KKW schools will train for olympic-style sparring, and WTF-rules tournaments I go to typically use your KKW rank, if I'm not mistaken. However, the base KKW curriculum doesn't cover much in regards to self defense, and the WTF rules are rules for a game, not rules for a fight.

So if a school uses only the KKW curriculum and the WTF sparring rules, then blows to the face are pretty much not covered. A master supplementing the curriculum with more traditional TKD or another martial art can fill in the gaps.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The technique immediately following the high back fall at 7:10 is actually called Sandan Gaeshi. It takes 3 different techniques from other parts of the Shinnin List and Oku list and puts them together, with uke and tori trading slots back and forth. (tori gets countered and becomes uke then counters and becomes tori again) I believe the art you are interested in is the arm whip throw in the middle. That art we call Gyakute Gaeshi, which is a series of 3 arm whip throws. This video shows both of those techniques a bit slower and better quality video. (no Wally Jay this time though ) Gyakute Gaeshi occurs at 2:44, Sandan Gaeshi occurs at 11:14 (with Gyakute Gaeshi composing the middle segment).

If that is the art you are researching... I can look through some of the offline info I have about the DZR version, if you are interested. Hope that helps!

Yes, that is the technique! I would very much appreciate any information you have on how that is taught in Danzan-ryu. I've been going through some of the NGA techniques and looking for similar techniques in other arts, to get a better understanding of their mechanics.

 

[andyjeffries]

However, the base KKW curriculum doesn't cover much in regards to self defense

Based on what?

I attended the Master Instructor Course at Kukkiwon in 2016 and there was a self-defence module on that course, that covered defence to punches in the face, weapons defence, grappling, etc. The Kukkiwon definitely officially has a very full self-defence curriculum. There as a 20 minute rough cut video they showed us (they don't want us sharing it, because they're producing a proper professional one and this was just in various dojangs showing the range of the syllabus).

 

[skribs]

Based on what?

I attended the Master Instructor Course at Kukkiwon in 2016 and there was a self-defence module on that course, that covered defence to punches in the face, weapons defence, grappling, etc. The Kukkiwon definitely officially has a very full self-defence curriculum. There as a 20 minute rough cut video they showed us (they don't want us sharing it, because they're producing a proper professional one and this was just in various dojangs showing the range of the syllabus).

Based on what I've heard from several different sources that the only requirement in the KKW curriculum is the Taegeuk forms.

 

[andyjeffries]

Based on what I've heard from several different sources that the only requirement in the KKW curriculum is the Taegeuk forms.

There is certainly more to Dan grading requirements (also + WT-sparring and admittedly relatively easy destruction), however Kukkiwon acknowledges those are bare minimum specs and not the entire curriculum.

I would also say (if you're a KKW 2nd Dan upwards) that if you can afford it - attend the course. You'll learn a lot about what Kukkiwon Taekwondo is about and the entire syllabus.

 

[dvcochran]

Based on what I've heard from several different sources that the only requirement in the KKW curriculum is the Taegeuk forms.

It is misleading and often poorly presented by KKW. Taegeuk are the official forms but requirements get pretty loose after that. A school can fly the flag and still create their own curriculum. I have attended their self defense mod and feel it leaves a lot to be desired. IMHO.

 

[dvcochran]

So... why haven't you come up with applications yourself? Seriously. If the only applications you know are the ones you're spoon fed by your instructor, you're missing out on more than you're learning. Teaching a specific application of a movement is just a tool to try to get you to understand the principles behind it. Nothing more.



Because it takes more time and conditioning to do safely than most people will commit. The conditioning is fairly painful, and carries a significant risk of broken fingers. So people don't do it right. And then they end up with broken fingers. If you want to condition for spearhand strikes, great. Do so. But for most people, the risk/benefit ratio just doesn't add up. I did it when I was much younger, and like anything else it's easier to maintain than develop. But if I were starting over, I don't think I'd do it.

Agree with your first comment, not so much with the second. The purpose behind each move can be taught and explained. Of course they cannot be repeatedly practiced at full speed/power for the reasons you mentioned. Breaking down poomse is one of my favorite learnings.
Curious, on a different note, in your MDK do you punch to the face during sparring?

 

[dvcochran]

I assume you mean the motion of sticking your arm straight out with your fingertips being used for something other than striking with your fingertips?

I can think of several grappling applications that can apply strikes, such as a leg sweep using the motion of an elbow strike or ridge-hand, or a palm strike to trap the attacker's fingers, but I'm completely blanking out on how a spearhand can otherwise be used.



I'm saying I must at least have an application in mind as a starting point. For example, an augmented block (what I mean by that is an outside block with one arm, and the other arm supporting the elbow). What is the application of that? I have a basis to start with the spearhand, but I don't even know what the purpose of augmenting the outside block is.

With no basis to start from, to me it's just an abstract motion I learn as part of the form.



Well, on the one hand, how do you know I haven't been trying to understand?

On the other hand, why is it not valuable to learn from my master? If I should just figure everything out for myself, I might as well stop training under a Master and just watch Bruce Lee movies and figure out how he did all his stuff.

As to the last bit, if someone is trying to figure out the application of the fall (i.e. what purpose might a fall serve in a fight) they might be down a different track of mind than what the question is (why it's important to know how to fall safely if you happen to fall).

As I was taught, augmenting the block, i.e. an outside block is pretty straight forward. Something really big or heavy is unavoidably coming your way.

 

[Jaeimseu]

But I don't get how you'd get there. Modern WT sparring has very defensive chambers (where the knee blocks forward access), the footwork is very fluid and we train to be able to still kick from pushing distance (which is likely the distance you're talking about). Plus I can't imagine trying to kick from close range as a default (outside of sport contexts), only if starting from range - and I think a fighter will have a hard job coming in close on a correct kick.

However, when I got to Korea in a month, we're having a seminar with a self defence expert and one of the parts he's prepared for us is "kick defence", so we'll see what he teaches then.

I catch round kicks using cover punch as an entry. It’s easy against people who bring the knee around. Against the front kick style chamber you have to be really fast, have perfect timing, or use footwork to move inside and slightly away from the kick. I “grab” the leg from underneath by wrapping/lifting my arm in the bend of the knee. If you move in correctly, you won’t even be hit by a high kick (even with your cover hand down).

I can catch a kick by allowing a kick to the ribs and wrapping over the top, too, as long as I use some footwork to mitigate the damage from the kick. If you know the round kick is coming, it’s actually not that difficult. The problem is when you don’t know what’s coming. If you wanted to have no friends at the dojang you could probably catch round kicks and take people down all day since the default attack is round kick.


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[Jaeimseu]

I don’t think I’d change anything about Taekwondo. I love it just as it is. I think Taekwondo has something for just about everyone, and it’s diverse enough to allow people to focus in their favorite area(s) should they choose to do so.


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[Dirty Dog]

Agree with your first comment, not so much with the second. The purpose behind each move can be taught and explained. Of course they cannot be repeatedly practiced at full speed/power for the reasons you mentioned. Breaking down poomse is one of my favorite learnings.

There is no "the" purpose behind any move. That's sort of the point I've been trying to make.
You can teach A purpose, and I do, but not THE. The difference is significant.

Curious, on a different note, in your MDK do you punch to the face during sparring?

Not usually, because sending your friends home with a black eye isn't super cool. But yes, sometimes, primarily with more advanced students who have good control.

 

[skribs]

There is no "the" purpose behind any move. That's sort of the point I've been trying to make.

I think there is a primary purpose for most movements. In general, applying a move into a different technique usually involves changing it somehow. For example, a knife-hand block and a knife-hand strike use a similar movement, but the block will use more of the shoulder than the strike and will be more of a push than a strike, and your forearm will be at a different angle. If you looked at me do a knife-hand block and then do a knife-hand strike, you will clearly see two different techniques, and each one has a purpose. Heck, even the chamber is different (with the block I chamber with my elbow next to my chest, with the strike I have my elbow pointed at the target).

Now if I were to take each and find another application, besides the block or the strike, I could. For example the motion of the knife-hand block can be used against the chest or neck as part of a leg sweep. However, if I'm doing a sweep, I will probably do the motion in my arm slightly different (my forearm will be turned so I can push with my palm instead of the blade of my hand), so is that a different application of the knife-hand block motion, or a different move entirely?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Based on what I've heard from several different sources that the only requirement in the KKW curriculum is the Taegeuk forms.

There ought to be a difference between testing requirements and curriculum. Admittedly, there sometimes isn't.

 

[skribs]

There ought to be a difference between testing requirements and curriculum. Admittedly, there sometimes isn't.

Do you mean what CAN be taught at the school, or what IS taught at the school?

For example, we generally do obstacle games for the kids, and the rolling and cartwheels (more of a vault than an actual cartwheel) is done routinely in class, but doesn't show up on the test. It's basically part of the curriculum, even if it isn't tested.

Alternatively, sometimes I'll show a wrist grab escape or something flashy like a superman punch, which isn't something we normally teach. But it's something I CAN teach, because it's something I know.

If this all makes sense.

To apply this specifically to self defense, what I mean is - do you teach self defense concepts regularly, especially practicing specific things regularly? Or do you consider it part of the curriculum if every once in a while the instructor says "today, we're going to practice if someone grabs you from behind, what you should do.

 

[wab25]

I think there is a primary purpose for most movements.

This is correct. However, the primary purpose is not the application. The primary purpose is to teach you a set of proper principles. As a general rule, they should teach balance, movement, power generation... The application is secondary. In fact, in many cases, confining yourself to one application does a great job of limiting what that move is teaching you. I could be a punch, a block, an application of an arm bar, a choke a throw.... or lots of other things. But, if you can not make the movement correctly, none of those will work. If you make the movement correctly, you have a lot more options of what it could be. Change the distance, the set up, the angle... You should be able to find lots of applications for the same movement. Don't limit yourself to "this is a punch" or this is a "fingertip strike."