I think this here is way better than wing chun

[drop bear]

I don't agree with this entirely becuase there are fighters out there in the world who go through some heavy **** in life. They could be going through a very rough patch and be very irritable and quick to anger which can lead to a fight over the dumbest thing.

Martial artists are not perfect people and are capable of being in the wrong when they fight. It sucks but it happens .

Not the point i was getting at. But valid any way.

When an area gets a spate of thefts it can quite often be just one guy. So a big problem id caused buy a small number of people.

Assults can be the same. You don't need a large number of baddies out there to be under a threat.

 

[Juany118]

Nobody should need coaching on how to fight a drunk in a bar. After all, it's a drunk person. Easy peasy.


Sorry, but that's incorrect. I have been involved in classical Japanese martial arts for well over 20 years now. Nobody has ever insisted that I say yes sir or no sir. I tell my students to knock off the sensei stuff. Oss has got to be the most overused and ridiculous thing to come out of most karate people's mouths, and I refuse to let it be used in my dojo, and bowing to each other is simply Japanese societal mores. It all depends on the school, not the art.


But most of them don't. The majority of self defense is more about situational awareness, de-escalation techniques, and having enough self confidence to laugh off insults rather than fighting. The vast majority of actual fights that anyone is likely to engage in will not be with a trained individual, therefore just about any sort of fight training will give a person a large advantage.

I do agree with you though that all gyms should have some cross-over into non-refereed scenarios.

Drunks aren't necessarily easy. First there are the people I call "career drinkers." These are the people who aren't even functional until they are a .05. These people will have the poor decision making and cognitive skills when intoxicated, these people are also statistically more likely to be violent. Their experience with drinking however means their physical degradation takes longer.

Second regardless of whether they are in category #1 fight or flight has an interesting effect. The adrenaline dump doesn't change the poor decision making skills, lack of cognitive ability etc BUT it can let you fight as if sober. Essentially what happens is that the adrenaline dump puts the primitive mind in charge. As long as you are not, literally, falling down drunk, you will resort to instinctively fighting (if no formal training) if you have formal training muscle memory kicks in. The alcohol then also reads pain response on top of the deadening on pain response the adrenaline itself brings.

Add all of this together and there is, in essence, a "sweet spot" where drunks can actually be some of the most dangerous people to fight.

I agree with the rest of your post however. The last part is why I see a difference between "combatives" and self defense, though others clearly don't see the distinction. To me "combatives" is a method of training one should undergo if you are going to regularly encounter situations when walking a way isn't an option. I am a bigger fan of verbal judo than actual fighting BUT every day I find myself in a circumstance where I quite literally can't walk away. This means, sadly on a regular basis due to where I work, I will without doubt end up engaged in a hostile encounter. Self-defense for me actually has more options. If you are a reasonable person you should rarely, if ever, find yourself the knowing instigator of a confrontational situation. If you find yourself in one you can use verbal judo BUT, unless you are literally surrounded or backed into a corner, you can almost always walk or run away. The only issue I have with some self-defense training is that they don't teach those options that lead up to the fight AND they all too often don't do a good job of dealing with the actual stress of the encounter. I have watched black belts that are the stars of their schools get thumped by an "average" brawler because they simply were prepared for the stress and brutality of a real fight outside the dojo.

 

[Kickboxer101]

While that's certainly true, it also greatly affects coordination. If a person is so drunk that they're going to attack you in a bar, then it has been my experience that they have bad cognitive skills and poor coordination by that point, and they are easily defeated using the most rudimentary of techniques. You were talking about self defense fighting, not door guard or LEO.

Maybe but still if the guys drunk and has some training or even a weapon they can still be dangerous that's why a lot of assaults happen when the attackers drunk if they were so easy to beat drunks wouldn't be able to assault anyone

 

[Juany118]

Maybe but still if the guys drunk and has some training or even a weapon they can still be dangerous that's why a lot of assaults happen when the attackers drunk if they were so easy to beat drunks wouldn't be able to assault anyone

Actually see above. Medical professionals still quite understand why but there have been studies involving people who purposefully became intoxicated. They then had them perform tasks that included fine muscle motor function. Next they subjected them to things that would cause a natural adrenaline response (typically via the infliction of pain). The test subjects were asked to perform the same test and there were marked improvements in performance. There is a limit of course, you can't be falling down drunk, but the fight or flight mechanism is an amazing thing.

 

[Tez3]

When people have had a few drinks it's less about their fighting abilities and more about their inhibitions being lowered. People who normally wouldn't argue or fight become aggressive under the influence of alcohol, they also become unpredictable and can switch moods very quickly.

 

[Juany118]

When people have had a few drinks it's less about their fighting abilities and more about their inhibitions being lowered. People who normally wouldn't argue or fight become aggressive under the influence of alcohol, they also become unpredictable and can switch moods very quickly.

Yep, and add to the unpredictability of the suspect the that alcohol will bring additional pain suppression to that the adrenaline brings. I would rather deal with a sober person trained in Martial arts than one after a few drinks or high on something any day of the week.

 

[ShawnP]

Lol. No. You take pride in telling people they have failed in your eyes.

But nice try though.

Passive aggressive? Not sure.

and yet another assumption based solely on no facts what so ever..still hoping for that argument i see..

 

[Kickboxer101]

and yet another assumption based solely on no facts what so ever..still hoping for that argument i see..

Best way to not let someone argue is to not argue with them

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Any place that is combative should be able to defend themselves.

Absolutely (obviously, that wouldn't necessarily include those styles training for very-light-contact point sparring). When you say they didn't learn any self-defense, did they learn nothing that would work? I studied Judo for a while before I found NGA. We never studied self-defense, but what I learned there is actually what I used in my first physical self-defense encounter.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Dosent matter what the focus is. Running a hundred meter sprint isn't focused on running away from a drunk in a bar.

But it will do that job just fine. Because it is built to deal with that circumstance.

I agreed, except that focus does matter. Yes, running a faster 100-meter sprint will work. Running a little slower and being able to dodge around things will work better. Doing that and staying aware of the people around you (in case one is trying to grab you for his friend) will work better yet.

Focus does matter. That doesn't make other training irrelevant. Cross-training is an important component in almost all effective physical training.

 

[Ironbear24]

Absolutely (obviously, that wouldn't necessarily include those styles training for very-light-contact point sparring). When you say they didn't learn any self-defense, did they learn nothing that would work? I studied Judo for a while before I found NGA. We never studied self-defense, but what I learned there is actually what I used in my first physical self-defense encounter.

They were shown how to throw crazy punches and shown a double leg takedown. As far as anything like blocking to you know, not get hit, they didn't know squat.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Because the punching, kicking, knees,elbows,throws and submissions are not going to be a suitable tool box.

Why did you address all the things he didn't talk about, rather than the point he actually made? His point is valid, as is yours. Discussion is not a zero-sum game.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

They were shown how to throw crazy punches and shown a double leg takedown. As far as anything like blocking to you know, both get hit, they didn't know squat.

If they weren't learning blocking, they weren't actually learning for MMA competition, either. There's a reason MMA training normally translates well to physical self-defense.

 

[Ironbear24]

If they weren't learning blocking, they weren't actually learning for MMA competition, either. There's a reason MMA training normally translates well to physical self-defense.

That's my point. What the hell were they learning? It said mma on the building but what they got was ********.

 

[pgsmith]

I don't agree with this entirely becuase there are fighters out there in the world who go through some heavy **** in life. They could be going through a very rough patch and be very irritable and quick to anger which can lead to a fight over the dumbest thing.

Martial artists are not perfect people and are capable of being in the wrong when they fight. It sucks but it happens .

While I agree that this is a possibility, I've never encountered it. Nobody that I've trained with has ever encountered it. The vast majority of martial artists that I've asked the question of have never even had to use their skills in a fight against anyone, never mind a drunk martial artist. Therefore, it is an extremely remote possibility in my mind, and not worth making an issue out of it. Perhaps you should be more worried about training to defeat a drunk attacking you with his artificial arm, since I've actually seen that happen. That makes it a more likely encounter in my mind than worrying about how to fight a drunk martial artist.

 

[Ironbear24]

While I agree that this is a possibility, I've never encountered it. Nobody that I've trained with has ever encountered it. The vast majority of martial artists that I've asked the question of have never even had to use their skills in a fight against anyone, never mind a drunk martial artist. Therefore, it is an extremely remote possibility in my mind, and not worth making an issue out of it. Perhaps you should be more worried about training to defeat a drunk attacking you with his artificial arm, since I've actually seen that happen. That makes it a more likely encounter in my mind than worrying about how to fight a drunk martial artist.

You never heard of the drunken master?

Anyway it is unlikely, but it can happen, whether you wish to train for it us up to you, id rather train to fight other martial artists because not only will I be competing but if I can beat a guy who is trained for fighting then odds are I will be able to beat an idiot drunk.

 

[Juany118]

While I agree that this is a possibility, I've never encountered it. Nobody that I've trained with has ever encountered it. The vast majority of martial artists that I've asked the question of have never even had to use their skills in a fight against anyone, never mind a drunk martial artist. Therefore, it is an extremely remote possibility in my mind, and not worth making an issue out of it. Perhaps you should be more worried about training to defeat a drunk attacking you with his artificial arm, since I've actually seen that happen. That makes it a more likely encounter in my mind than worrying about how to fight a drunk martial artist.

Well I am here. I have been a LEO for almost 20 years in a "high crime" urban community. How many drunk people who have trained in boxing or at a McDojo or "MMA rocks!!!!" do you think I have encountered while they were drunk?

That said the purpose of self defense training is like that of a condom. Better to have it, and not need it, than to need it and not have it. Otherwise what is the dang point?

 

[ShawnP]

Best way to not let someone argue is to not argue with them

i totally agree, i still don't see where there is any argument.

 

[pgsmith]

Well I am here. I have been a LEO for almost 20 years in a "high crime" urban community. How many drunk people who have trained in boxing or at a McDojo or "MMA rocks!!!!" do you think I have encountered while they were drunk?

That said the purpose of self defense training is like that of a condom. Better to have it, and not need it, than to need it and not have it. Otherwise what is the dang point?

Yes, but I specifically said in my earlier post that we were discussing self defense scenarios, not door guards or LEOs. People in the security or law enforcement industry have a different set of requirements than the rest of us, and need to train accordingly.

I just get a bit disgruntled by all of the (mostly younger) folks that will argue vehemently about how (insert MA name here) won't properly teach you how to "fight on the street" (why the heck would you be getting into fights on the street anyway?) or fight a drunk in a bar (re: my earlier response regarding fighting drunks). My point is that arguing about it is fruitless and, for the most part, totally worthless. Just training regularly in any martial art will give a normal person all the skills they'll likely ever need unless they decide to go into security or law enforcement.

 

[drop bear]

and yet another assumption based solely on no facts what so ever..still hoping for that argument i see..

If you want to fix spelling or grammar. You care about the spelling or grammar. If you want to tell people you have done it.

Then it is no longer about the spelling/grammar.

Still being passive aggressive.