I have a love/hate relationship with the I-shape forms

[Badhabits]

Obviously don't know how you're going about this, but a couple of ideas
You could have a kata that demonstrates basic technique requirements as the student progresses ie- student learns the first quarter for the first two belts, learns up to half the kata for the next two belts etc. By black student has learned the whole kata. The school I'm at has one. The full kata has all the basic point sparring techniques + a bunch of the fighting combos + the various footwork. It's a long kata.
You could take your 2 person drills and put them into kata.
The school I'm at also requires the student to create their own kata, I agree it's a lot tougher than it sounds. I always feel like I'm just plagiarising other kata lol.

 

[skribs]

You could take your 2 person drills and put them into kata.

I tried that and gave up real fast.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Forms can be designed to:

1. Common self-defense situations such as grabs, chokes or punches with defenses and counters.
2. Competitive sport sparring methods using set-ups, tactics, distance control, speed and combination attacks.
3. Practice and perfect technique execution, form and balance.
4. Exercise, building strength, endurance and breath control.

Each type will entail its own set of considerations.

They're combinations of techniques arranged artistically.

If this is the way you see forms and want to design a progressive curriculum, your basic format should be easy. Start off with the first form being basic and the following ones getting longer and more advanced and challenging.

1st. Basic stepping and turns, single basic blocks and punches.
2nd. Work in 2 move combinations and a couple of low/mid-level kicks.
3rd. Go to 3 move combos utilizing hand and foot and add more strikes like chops and elbows and head kicks.
4th. Work on kick combos with more advanced kicks, additional strikes/blocks, and start on angles.
5th. And so on...

All you need to do is choose the technique order and come up with floor patterns. You can name them 1-8 or come up with some cool names.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

1st. Basic stepping and turns, single basic blocks and punches.

One person drill that I like is:

1. Left arm downward inside out block, right punch.
2. Right arm upward inside out block/grab/pull, left punch.
3. Left arm upward block, right punch.
4. Right arm downward block, left punch.

In 4 moves drill, I can drill 4 different blocks with punch. A blocking arm become a punching arm; and a punching arm become a blocking arm. This will fit the principle of "a punch should follow by a grab/pull". By using this drill, this principle will be developed into a beginner's mind deeply.

IMO, every part of the form that you create, the purpose is to record a certain principle/strategy. So, when you create your form, you should write down how many different principles/strategies that you want to "record".

 

[skribs]

Forms can be designed to:

1. Common self-defense situations such as grabs, chokes or punches with defenses and counters.
2. Competitive sport sparring methods using set-ups, tactics, distance control, speed and combination attacks.
3. Practice and perfect technique execution, form and balance.
4. Exercise, building strength, endurance and breath control.

Each type will entail its own set of considerations.

If this is the way you see forms and want to design a progressive curriculum, your basic format should be easy. Start off with the first form being basic and the following ones getting longer and more advanced and challenging.

1st. Basic stepping and turns, single basic blocks and punches.
2nd. Work in 2 move combinations and a couple of low/mid-level kicks.
3rd. Go to 3 move combos utilizing hand and foot and add more strikes like chops and elbows and head kicks.
4th. Work on kick combos with more advanced kicks, additional strikes/blocks, and start on angles.
5th. And so on...

All you need to do is choose the technique order and come up with floor patterns. You can name them 1-8 or come up with some cool names.

What I'm mainly agonizing over is what I'm referring to as "word choice" and "syntax".

 

[Earl Weiss]

Is it a TKD school if they start with an unofficial form? Is it a TKD school if they use Kukkiwon forms instead of ITF patterns? What about ATA forms, are they Taekwondo forms? Every school I've been to has started with in-house forms. I guess I've never done TKD then.

.

Therein lies a never to be answered question - "What is T K D " (Non Specific abbreviation intended. ) Certainly if you don't do the Chang Hon Forms it is not Tk-D. Might be Tkd, or T K D etc.

 

[Earl Weiss]

(

I fail to see how BJJ or Muay Thai enter into this...

.)
They're martial arts. This is a martial art.

Therein lies another important never question (Never to be answered with an answer accepted by all. ) "What is / is not a "Martial Art? How about Boxing? Tae Bo? Cardio Kickboxing?

 

[Earl Weiss]

IMO, every part of the form that you create, the purpose is to record a certain principle/strategy. So, when you create your form, you should write down how many different principles/strategies that you want to "record".

I think the above is critical ....but if I may be so bold. Rather than create an entire form to teach specific principle or strategy do this thru some set combination of 1-4 moves with thru sparring combos or step sparring. Use whatever number of such combinations might be appropriate for whatever rank. This can accomplish things. Allow to to keep form set you don't despise in order to facilitate portability of your system, and allow students to use forms which can provide various levels of understanding of principles. applications, and strategies as they progress ' "Wax On Wax Off"

 

[skribs]

I think the above is critical ....but if I may be so bold. Rather than create an entire form to teach specific principle or strategy do this thru some set combination of 1-4 moves with thru sparring combos or step sparring. Use whatever number of such combinations might be appropriate for whatever rank. This can accomplish things. Allow to to keep form set you don't despise in order to facilitate portability of your system, and allow students to use forms which can provide various levels of understanding of principles. applications, and strategies as they progress ' "Wax On Wax Off"

I take it one step further than that. Have expectations of what students will learn, and then allow the instructors to create scenarios to teach those techniques and concepts.

I've used this example in the past, but let's take hand grab defenses. I may have 4 different joint locks from 4 different positions. Two wrist locks (V lock and Z lock), an elbow lock, and a Figure-4 lock. From a cross grab, straight grab, two-on-one, and double straight grab.

In a comprehensive system, this may become 16 different techniques, where #1 is V lock from straight grab, #2 is V lock from cross grab, and so on. This gets to be a lot to remember. Especially if you add another lock and another grab, that 2 new things becomes 9 new techniques (because you go up from 16 to 25). Or if you start adding in transitions between techniques and variations of techniques, this comprehensive list grows exponentially.

Another system may have 4 techniques: Figure-4 from straight grab, V-lock from cross grab, elbow lock from two-on-one, and Z-lock from double straight grab. While this much more succinctly teaches the 4 joint locks and the 4 positions, it doesn't teach you how to apply different techniques in different situations.

The way I would approach it is that instructors know the 4 techniques and the 4 positions. Each class, they pick one of those 8 elements to be the focus. For that day, it may be V-Locks from all 4 grabs. Or it may be all 4 joint locks from a cross grab. Or it may be the difference between a cross grab and a two-on-one grab for one or two techniques. Or difference between a cross grab and a straight grab. Or how to transition from Z lock to elbow lock to Figure-4.

In this way, almost every new thing I teach is one new thing for my students to learn exponentially more. If I teach a transition from one move to another, that can help them see how to transition between others. But if it's just memorizing everything, then everything new I teach becomes exponentially more that's required on the test.

I do want to have forms and some level of rote memorization. But I feel that beyond forms it's much better to teach techniques and concepts in different ways that compliment each other. This way we have linear teaching with exponential growth, instead of exponential teaching with linear growth.

 

[Thonged warrior]

I've spent the last several years trying to develop my own set of colored belt forms. I've learned my school's version of the Palgwe forms. I've learned the Taegeuks. Looked through the original versions of the Palgwes. Looked at other styles of Taekwondo. Looked into older inspirations such as TSD and various styles of Karate. There's a lot to like out there. But nothing out there has really truly grabbed me as "the one." There's always something about a set of forms that makes me pause and reconsider. Sometimes it's almost everything about them (I'm looking at you, Taegeuks). But even the forms I spent the most time training and have the fondest memories with...I still don't know.

One of the issues I have with creating my own set of forms is that I don't want them to all look the same. The Palgwe forms all follow the basic I-shape pattern. In fact, most forms seem to. Those that abandon it often barely do so (such as Koryo). The Taegeuk forms at least have a middle line to break up the pattern, although that leads to a different flavor of sameness. The shorter stances benefit the Taegeuk forms in making it easier to flow while breaking up the vertical lines. But I'm not a fan of those stances, so that doesn't help me.

I keep coming back to the I pattern, because it's so easy to write for. It's a perfect template. You can plug-and-play a couple of short combinations and a couple of long combinations. It's like a haiku or limerick. The structure is there. The structure works. But that structure doesn't really offer much room to deviate. Small deviations and it just comes off as a mistake. Too far off, and the forms start to feel random.

I want to make forms that will fit me, my curriculum, and what I'm trying to do with it. It's proving to be much more challenging than I ever would've thought. I understand now why none of these sets are perfect, or at least perfect to my standards. I have a lot more respect now for the people who initially created them.

For what it's worth, I'm currently back to the drawing board. Several years in and I've got bupkis.

You sound like a wannabe Grand Master

 

[Buka]

I think we should start a committee to study the effects of bureaucracy.

,
Oof, that wouldn’t be pretty. Probably humorous if you were outside looking in, though.

 

[J. Pickard]

I've spent the last several years trying to develop my own set of colored belt forms. I've learned my school's version of the Palgwe forms. I've learned the Taegeuks. Looked through the original versions of the Palgwes. Looked at other styles of Taekwondo. Looked into older inspirations such as TSD and various styles of Karate. There's a lot to like out there. But nothing out there has really truly grabbed me as "the one." There's always something about a set of forms that makes me pause and reconsider. Sometimes it's almost everything about them (I'm looking at you, Taegeuks). But even the forms I spent the most time training and have the fondest memories with...I still don't know.

One of the issues I have with creating my own set of forms is that I don't want them to all look the same. The Palgwe forms all follow the basic I-shape pattern. In fact, most forms seem to. Those that abandon it often barely do so (such as Koryo). The Taegeuk forms at least have a middle line to break up the pattern, although that leads to a different flavor of sameness. The shorter stances benefit the Taegeuk forms in making it easier to flow while breaking up the vertical lines. But I'm not a fan of those stances, so that doesn't help me.

I keep coming back to the I pattern, because it's so easy to write for. It's a perfect template. You can plug-and-play a couple of short combinations and a couple of long combinations. It's like a haiku or limerick. The structure is there. The structure works. But that structure doesn't really offer much room to deviate. Small deviations and it just comes off as a mistake. Too far off, and the forms start to feel random.

I want to make forms that will fit me, my curriculum, and what I'm trying to do with it. It's proving to be much more challenging than I ever would've thought. I understand now why none of these sets are perfect, or at least perfect to my standards. I have a lot more respect now for the people who initially created them.

For what it's worth, I'm currently back to the drawing board. Several years in and I've got bupkis.

What is your goal with the forms? For context, the yumbusan (floor pattern) in taekwondo poomsae have nothing to do with the application like they do in okinawan karate, but rather, relate to the cultural significance of the philosophy that has been assigned to them. In other words, the floor pattern stems from a strong sense of nationalism that was very prevalent during the kwon unification and reclaiming Korea's sense of self after the end of the Japanese occupation. For example, the taegeuk poomsae all use the floor pattern 王, which is the sino character that translates as King. It is culturally and historically significant to the korean people and is talked about in of the chapters in General Choi's TKD encyclopedia. The 3 horizontal lines additionally represent the palgwe (8 trigrams) from taoist philosophy of Taegeuk which is also culturally and historically significant in Korea. These trigrams dictate the movement in the taegeuk poomsae. For example each from represents one of the 8 trigrams, for every broken line you take no forward step from one half of the bar to the next and instead turn with the back leg. If the bar of the form is represented by an unbroken line you step forward and turn to the other half of the bar 180 degrees with your front foot. If you want to preserve TKD as a cultural art then the Palgwe and Taegeuk poomsae in addition to the other black belt poomsae are a great way to do this.

Conversely if you want a more modern combat focused approach to TKD with less stemming from historical culture in Korea, then reverse engineer a form. What I mean by this is get with a partner and decide what specific concepts they are going to use to attack you and how you would counter them. Essentially a slow, turn based fight. From there make is a solo drill or form. If you haven't seen any Enshin karate kata, you should take a look at them. At a glance some of them look sloppy and dumb, but then they do the application with a partner at full speed and the concepts suddenly make sense. But when you get into doing this method you invite the discussion of what defines a style and whether or not you are still doing TKD or X martial art anymore.

Enshin kata video for reference

 

[SirKicksAlot]

Poomsae referred to the black belt forms, and as such demanded more respect

Aren't all forms in Kukkiwon called Poomsae with the black belt set specifically called the Yudanja set?

 

[HighKick]

What is your goal with the forms? For context, the yumbusan (floor pattern) in taekwondo poomsae have nothing to do with the application like they do in okinawan karate, but rather, relate to the cultural significance of the philosophy that has been assigned to them. In other words, the floor pattern stems from a strong sense of nationalism that was very prevalent during the kwon unification and reclaiming Korea's sense of self after the end of the Japanese occupation. For example, the taegeuk poomsae all use the floor pattern 王, which is the sino character that translates as King. It is culturally and historically significant to the korean people and is talked about in of the chapters in General Choi's TKD encyclopedia. The 3 horizontal lines additionally represent the palgwe (8 trigrams) from taoist philosophy of Taegeuk which is also culturally and historically significant in Korea. These trigrams dictate the movement in the taegeuk poomsae. For example each from represents one of the 8 trigrams, for every broken line you take no forward step from one half of the bar to the next and instead turn with the back leg. If the bar of the form is represented by an unbroken line you step forward and turn to the other half of the bar 180 degrees with your front foot. If you want to preserve TKD as a cultural art then the Palgwe and Taegeuk poomsae in addition to the other black belt poomsae are a great way to do this.

Conversely if you want a more modern combat focused approach to TKD with less stemming from historical culture in Korea, then reverse engineer a form. What I mean by this is get with a partner and decide what specific concepts they are going to use to attack you and how you would counter them. Essentially a slow, turn based fight. From there make is a solo drill or form. If you haven't seen any Enshin karate kata, you should take a look at them. At a glance some of them look sloppy and dumb, but then they do the application with a partner at full speed and the concepts suddenly make sense. But when you get into doing this method you invite the discussion of what defines a style and whether or not you are still doing TKD or X martial art anymore.

Enshin kata video for reference

I have only worked out in an Enshin school a few times but really enjoyed how they teach kata. Very thorough at teaching application.
It would be some great research for @skribs .

 

[HighKick]

Why does everyone assume this is my ego that's prompting this?

I don't see forms as sacred. I've learned dozens of forms, seen hundreds. They're combinations of techniques arranged artistically. It doesn't take a god-king to make them, and so I'm not making some grandiose claims about myself in my attempts to do so.

Exactly the point. There are so many variants of every form out there, who knows whether they are really working with the original version or not? And I say it doesn't matter. Countless instructors have made their own 'tweak' to their patterns because they determined a better way. This could have derived from social changes or discovery from the instructor's own research. But they don't go out and claim the form as their own and give it a new name. If it is a very commercially know set of patterns (like KKW Poomsae) a good instructor will explain his/her change to the student and why. Usually, this is only done with higher Gup rank students in my experience. Since, the lower Gup ranks are busy just trying to learn any pattern, it isn't that important. The exception would be a gross error in a pattern but honestly, how long would a pattern like that stay around?

I am not bashing that you want to make your own creation, as you said, it certainly isn't a new thing. I do question why. Why exhaust time on something that has been done over and over again. I would aver there is never an 'end' to tweaking forms since socially and environmentally things will always change. Your (Our) time is better spent diving deep and finding the things we have not yet learned within the forms we already know. Or learn a new form-set from a completely different source and pick it apart.

Since it is not your ego as you claim, can you explain why you feel there needs to be another set of patterns floating around in the MA's universe?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

can you explain why you feel there needs to be another set of patterns floating around in the MA's universe?

What's the reason that you try to create a new form?

1. You want to add more forms on top of the already existing forms - You only add more burden on your students.
2. You try to combine all your forms into 1 form - This is not a good idea as stated below.
3. You want to record new ideas that you have created - you have all the reason on earth to create your new forms.

I have created a "84 moves summary form" that combine information from 10 different forms. I thought this way; students can learn just 1 form instead of learning 10 forms. I was wrong, some advance moves just cannot be done by beginners. There is a good reason that beginner level form, intermediate level form, and advance level form are staged.

 

[Buka]

@skribs, whatever you decide to do, I have faith you’ll do it. And as long as you keep training (I think you’re going to be a lifer) everything will only get better.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Scribs, Here's something you can work into your forms.View attachment 32561
View attachment 32561

 

[J. Pickard]

Aren't all forms in Kukkiwon called Poomsae with the black belt set specifically called the Yudanja set?

Yes but I believe 6th dan poomsae and up is referred to as godanja (don't quote me on that)

 

[J. Pickard]

If it is a very commercially know set of patterns (like KKW Poomsae) a good instructor will explain his/her change to the student and why. Usually, this is only done with higher Gup rank students in my experience.

This is a good point that too many people overlook. I have met many kukkiwon grandmasters that teach poomsae according to the Kukkiwon standard, but with then explain to their black belts that don't do it that exact way and will explain why. A good example I learned recently From GM Peter Miles is that GM Park of the Chung Do Kwan helped to create keumgang poomsae and will teach it the kukkiwon way, but he does the first palm strike going forward different than he teaches because it makes more sense for him to do it his way. This goes back the 5 ways kukkiwon explains the learning/practice of poomsae. Step 1 is to first learn the form, but eventually, step 4 is make it your own. People get stuck on step 1 too often.