I have a love/hate relationship with the I-shape forms

[skribs]

Question: Do you want to make this form set to satisfy you own, personal ego (to check some mental box) or do you want them to be something function, teachable/learnable, that can be of value to your students?

Why does everyone assume this is my ego that's prompting this?

I don't see forms as sacred. I've learned dozens of forms, seen hundreds. They're combinations of techniques arranged artistically. It doesn't take a god-king to make them, and so I'm not making some grandiose claims about myself in my attempts to do so.

 

[Haruhiko]

Why does everyone assume this is my ego that's prompting this?

I don't see forms as sacred. I've learned dozens of forms, seen hundreds. They're combinations of techniques arranged artistically. It doesn't take a god-king to make them, and so I'm not making some grandiose claims about myself in my attempts to do so.

In many ways, they are sacred. They are the foundation of the entire art.

If you want to start your own art with its own philosophy then that may be different - you'd have carte blanche on the makeup, traditions, and curricula. But as is it, it sounds like a frustrated attempt to shape the art around the student - which you still are.

Maybe you'd find peace in starting a different art? Maybe the forms in that art will speak to you differently?

 

[skribs]

In many ways, they are sacred. They are the foundation of the entire art.

No they aren't. The vast majority of what I've learned about kicks has 0 to do with the forms. And that is arguably the foundation of Taekwondo. The other things that I have learned, such as the application/self-defense/ho-sin-sul training that I have done has very little to do with the forms.

I could teach 80% of what I've learned in Taekwondo without ever teaching the forms. In fact, there are a lot of TKD schools that focus 90% or more on competitive sparring or on real-world application, and only do forms as a formality for testing.

The problem I have with your approach is that it puts the forms into cult status. When you make it so that they cannot be questioned or improved upon, what you're really doing is hiding insecurities and ignoring inadequacies. When you oversell them, they won't live up to your expectations.

If you want to start your own art with its own philosophy then that may be different - you'd have carte blanche on the makeup, traditions, and curricula. But as is it, it sounds like a frustrated attempt to shape the art around the student - which you still are.

Maybe you'd find peace in starting a different art? Maybe the forms in that art will speak to you differently?

I've got formal training in Taekwondo, Hapkido, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Muay Thai, and MMA. My TKD training has included the official Palgwes, unofficial versions of the Palgwes, and the Taegeuks. Additionally, I've looked at forms from other TKD styles (such as ITF and ATA), other Korean styles (TSD and MDK), American styles like CKD, various Karate and Kung Fu styles.

In all of them I've seen things I like and don't like. I want to do forms. But I want to do forms that I 100% like.

 

[skribs]

In many ways, they are sacred. They are the foundation of the entire art.

I'll add onto this from my previous reply. If we assume the Taegeuks are the foundation of the entire art, most KKW TKD schools don't even start teaching the Taegeuks until yellow belt. Often white belts have in-house forms that teach the foundations (although they often default to the same one). Many schools don't even have a form for plain white belts, that comes when you've gotten a stripe or two, or when you've gotten your yellow belt.

If it is the "foundation of the art", then it's in-house forms that have been the foundation, and I'm just another school with in-house forms as the foundation. Or it's not the foundation of the entire art, and it's not sacred, and I'm just another school doing just another form set.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Koryo is the first form that cho-dan-bo are introduced to.

In KKW TKD, this is true. In other styles, it is not.

It's the "here's where it gets more involved" form, and the first that doesn't begin with ch/jumbi.

It is more correct to say it is the first that doesn't begin with the basic ready stance. Pushing Hands Ready Stance (Tongmilgi Junbi) is still a ready stance.

The taeguks are for preparing the coloured belts for more involved poomsae, and to help them learn about fundamental body movements required at higher levels. I wouldn't expect them to help you.

Why wouldn't you? I've been training for 50+ years, and I still benefit from practicing the basic forms.

 

[Haruhiko]

In all of them I've seen things I like and don't like. I want to do forms. But I want to do forms that I 100% like.

You might be looking for something that simply isn't there, and it may be hubris to assume you have the knowledge to implement it and sell it as authentically TKD.

Many black belts improvise their own forms and demonstrate them for entertainment, but it sounds like you want to officially implement them into your school.

At that point - is it a TKD school?

No they aren't. The vast majority of what I've learned about kicks has 0 to do with the forms.

I'd argue that it was the forms that allowed me to kick with proper "form".

In fact, there are a lot of TKD schools that focus 90% or more on competitive sparring or on real-world application, and only do forms as a formality for testing.

I was in one such school (sans real world application), but evenso, the poomsae were deeply respected. Maybe because we were WTF/KKW affiliated.

 

[Haruhiko]

Why wouldn't you? I've been training for 50+ years, and I still benefit from practicing the basic forms.

I was a fighter by the time I was first dan, and for whatever reason my coach only ever taught me forms up to 3rd dan, and I didn't see the utility in revisiting the taeguks unless I was assisting instruction.

I see the simple beauty in them now but alas I've moved on to other arts.

No doubt they helped me, but I didn't see it at the time.

 

[skribs]

In KKW TKD, this is true. In other styles, it is not.

Unless my Korean terminology failed me, I don't believe even this is true. Koryo is required by KKW to go from 1st degree to 2nd degree (whether that's dan or poom). Cho Dan Bo, to my knowledge, is the belt preceding black belt. In KKW TKD, the "Cho Dan Bo" or 1st keub form is Taegeuk 8.

You might be looking for something that simply isn't there, and it may be hubris to assume you have the knowledge to implement it and sell it as authentically TKD.

I don't think it's hubris to think I have the knowledge to choreograph a form. Especially since I've done so under the guidance of a Taekwondo Master for my own testing and for our demo team, and because I've been mentored by multiple Kukkiwon Masters and professors/coaches in BJJ and Muay Thai on how to effectively teach martial arts.

And because the knowledge to create a form is the knowledge of how to do a form. If you can't take what you know and rewrite it in your own words, then you don't really know it.

If you know how to do a handful of different techniques, you too can create a form. My issue isn't with the ability to create one. It's with the ability to find the right word choice and syntax.

Many black belts improvise their own forms and demonstrate them for entertainment, but it sounds like you want to officially implement them into your school.

At that point - is it a TKD school?

Is it a TKD school if they start with an unofficial form? Is it a TKD school if they use Kukkiwon forms instead of ITF patterns? What about ATA forms, are they Taekwondo forms? Every school I've been to has started with in-house forms. I guess I've never done TKD then.

I'd argue that it was the forms that allowed me to kick with proper "form".

If you're using the "proper form" from the forms, you're probably doing something wrong.

I was in one such school (sans real world application), but evenso, the poomsae were deeply respected. Maybe because we were WTF/KKW affiliated.

If you basically ignored them except for belt testing, then they were not "deeply respected". You're either lying to me or lying to yourself when you say this.

 

[Haruhiko]

Unless my Korean terminology failed me, I don't believe even this is true. Koryo is required by KKW to go from 1st degree to 2nd degree (whether that's dan or poom). Cho Dan Bo, to my knowledge, is the belt preceding black belt. In KKW TKD, the "Cho Dan Bo" or 1st keub form is Taegeuk 8.

It depends on the school but Koryo (when I first learnt it) was cho-dan-bo for us; red belt with black stripes. As @Dirty Dog mentioned this isn't consistent, and some consider cho-dan-bo as 1st degree black belt.

I've been mentored by multiple Kukkiwon Masters and professors/coaches in BJJ and Muay Thai

I fail to see how BJJ or Muay Thai enter into this...

If you basically ignored them except for belt testing, then they were not "deeply respected". You're either lying to me or lying to yourself when you say this.

Poomsae referred to the black belt forms, and as such demanded more respect. Such was the culture at the time.

Lying is a heavy charge.

you're using the "proper form" from the forms, you're probably doing something wrong.

In taeguk forms you're taught specifically to snap as you kick. If I hadn't incorporated that the way I was taught, I wouldn't have kicked properly. I wouldn't have scored points. Judges and referees are looking for clean and precise kicks, despite the point-obsession in competition.

I don't think it's hubris to think I have the knowledge to choreograph a form.

It's not.

It's hubris to assume you can, let alone should, essentially revise an entire art from your own frustrations.

 

[skribs]

I fail to see how BJJ or Muay Thai enter into this...

They're martial arts. This is a martial art.

Poomsae referred to the black belt forms, and as such demanded more respect. Such was the culture at the time.

Poomsae also includes colored belt forms. If we're talking black belt forms only, then they can't be the foundations (as you put it) because you should already know the foundations before you get to black belt. The more you say, the more wrong you get.

Lying is a heavy charge.

Then don't be so easy to accuse of it.

In taeguk forms you're taught specifically to snap as you kick. If I hadn't incorporated that the way I was taught, I wouldn't have kicked properly. I wouldn't have scored points. Judges and referees are looking for clean and precise kicks, despite the point-obsession in competition.

Oh, so you mean that one detail? Yeah, in every school I've been to, we learn that detail before kicks enter into the forms. We also teach that detail in Muay Thai. Which doesn't have forms.

It's not.

It's hubris to assume you can, let alone should, essentially revise an entire art from your own frustrations.

I guarantee you that your instructors have done the same. By your own admission one school you went to, 90% of the curriculum didn't come from Kukkiwon. Which means your instructors must have had such hubris. In fact, every KKW school owner has such hubris, because every KKW school I've ever been to (or even seen) has some in-house items in their curriculum. That's a revision of the art.

Apparently it was fine for all of them, but it's not fine for me. What is it that sets me apart from all of them, that it's expected of them but a sin for me?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Unless my Korean terminology failed me, I don't believe even this is true. Koryo is required by KKW to go from 1st degree to 2nd degree (whether that's dan or poom). Cho Dan Bo, to my knowledge, is the belt preceding black belt. In KKW TKD, the "Cho Dan Bo" or 1st keub form is Taegeuk 8.

As I said, depends on the system. In ours, Chodan Bo (one of those things that does not translate well - literally it's "half a black belt" but in context it's a black belt candidate or probationary black belt) has already learned Koryo. There's a symmetry to it. We use Kicho 1 to earn 10th geup and again (to a higher standard) for 9th. Likewise, Koryo is used to earn Chodan Bo and (again, to a higher standard) 1st Dan.

 

[Haruhiko]

Poomsae also includes colored belt forms. If we're talking black belt forms only, then they can't be the foundations (as you put it) because you should already know the foundations before you get to black belt. The more you say, the more wrong you get.

Poomsae (more broadly) includes Taeguk forms, yes, which lay the foundation for color belts. By black belt, foundational skills are refined, not re-learned. Black belt forms deepen these basics and introduce advanced concepts. Your claim that black belt forms can't build on foundations is flawed; they're a progression, not a reset.

By your own admission one school you went to, 90% of the curriculum didn't come from Kukkiwon.

No, I said I trained at a school that focused a lot on sparring. I didn't say anything about the curriculum.

Apparently it was fine for all of them, but it's not fine for me. What is it that sets me apart from all of them, that it's expected of them but a sin for me?

It's fine for you. Is it fine for the art of TKD? For your students? What sets you apart is the why of it. From what you've explained, it's a personal reason borne of frustration.

Let's revisit the thread's title:
"I have a love/hate relationship with the I-shape forms"

 

[Dirty Dog]

Poomsae referred to the black belt forms, and as such demanded more respect. Such was the culture at the time.

It's not at all uncommon to see Korean words used incorrectly in TKD schools. Poomsae (also "Hyeong" or "Tul") means "form" or "pattern" irrespective of rank. Black belt forms are "Yudanja" forms.

 

[Haruhiko]

It's not at all uncommon to see Korean words used incorrectly in TKD schools. Poomsae (also "Hyeong" or "Tul") means "form" or "pattern" irrespective of rank. Black belt forms are "Yudanja" forms.

We used it to specifically refer to black belt forms, curiously. And patterns specifically performed in non sparring competition. This was in WTF days.

For us it was:
Taeguk = coloured forms.
Poomsae = dan ranked forms and form demonstrations for 2nd degree and above.

No doubt it's changed and corrected now (hopefully).

It wasn't until a KKW official came to our dojang during a 5th dan grading that our coach started insisting we learn to count in Korean and learn the names of blocks, kicks, and punches in Korean.

DOLLYO CHAGI!

 

[skribs]

As I said, depends on the system. In ours, Chodan Bo (one of those things that does not translate well - literally it's "half a black belt" but in context it's a black belt candidate or probationary black belt) has already learned Koryo. There's a symmetry to it. We use Kicho 1 to earn 10th geup and again (to a higher standard) for 9th. Likewise, Koryo is used to earn Chodan Bo and (again, to a higher standard) 1st Dan.

In that case I'd argue that your use of Chodan Bo is what I said, but your position of Koryo in the curriculum is not. Not that there's anything wrong with learning it earlier in the curriculum, it's just not the KKW placement of the form.

Out of curiosity, was your school one of the schools that does "black belt" before "1st degree"?

 

[Haruhiko]

Out of curiosity, was your school one of the schools that does "black belt" before "1st degree"?

Speaking for my school a decade ago, it was even more complicated.

Cho-dan-bo was a red belt with two red stripes. We learnt Koryo at that belt. After some months, an informal grading then graduated a select few in our cohort to "probationary black belt", though it had no golden strip. That was "black belt (no dan)". Convoluted, but apparently to separate the wheat from the chaff.

After I think six months or a year, a more formal grading was organised where we officially received our first golden strip.

Quality control, I think my coach affectionately called it.

 

[Dirty Dog]

In that case I'd argue that your use of Chodan Bo is what I said, but your position of Koryo in the curriculum is not. Not that there's anything wrong with learning it earlier in the curriculum, it's just not the KKW placement of the form.

Out of curiosity, was your school one of the schools that does "black belt" before "1st degree"?

No. But 1st Dan is a teaching rank, so Chodan Bo is used to transition from student-focus to instructor-focus.

 

[skribs]

No. But 1st Dan is a teaching rank, so Chodan Bo is used to transition from student-focus to instructor-focus.

Side tangent: one thing I've realized (from my experience at the BJJ gym) is when I start my school, I won't have specific bureaucratic rules for quite some time.

At my BJJ gym, we have gray-and-white belts (first belt promotion, like a yellow belt or white-and-yellow belt in TKD) helping out with the tot's class. The highest ranking kids we have are some form of gray belt.

If I start my school and have requirements that you must be a red or black belt in order to be an instructor, I'm going to red tape myself out of help.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Side tangent: one thing I've realized (from my experience at the BJJ gym) is when I start my school, I won't have specific bureaucratic rules for quite some time.

Getting buried in bureaucracy is something to avoid.

If I start my school and have requirements that you must be a red or black belt in order to be an instructor, I'm going to red tape myself out of help.

I may not have been clear, then. Everybody is expected to be able to teach the material for ranks under theirs. If they don't understand it well enough to teach it, they aren't ready for promotion.

By "teaching rank" I mean able to teach unsupervised. They can go start their own school, if that's their desire. They can promote their own students to one rank below theirs. So a 1st Dan could promote to Chodan Bo.

 

[skribs]

Getting buried in bureaucracy is something to avoid.

I think we should start a committee to study the effects of bureaucracy.