I am talking about Kukkiwon Taekwondo..

[Markku P]

I am starting to believe that the only real unique Taekwondo is "Kukki"-Taekwondo:angel:. Our sparring style is totally unique and everyone can recognize it as Taekwondo. Because of our way of sparring, we now have totally unique kicking techniques, and you won't see our style of sparring in any other martial arts schools. Poomsae training is good for those who like that kind of thing, and I think that poomsae competitions have changed Taekwondo for the better. And as a result, I can see students' technical levels greatly improving. But people never want to talk about poomsae's usefulness in real-life situations. Well, I think that poomsae training has very little to do with self defense.


What about ITF-Taekwondo. Well, I like to watch their sparring, but I don't think their sparring style is unique at all. Sometimes you don't see much difference between Karate or ITF-Taekwondo fights. Now, notice I didn't say anything bad about ITF sparring!


Any Comments?

/Markku P.

 

[Gemini]

Why don't you just throw a grenade in the room and close the door.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Don't feed the trolls.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Markku P]

I am bored :uhyeah: and we just got more snow..

/Markku

 

[Markku P]

Dear Chris

Trolls comes from Norway..

/Markku P.

 

[puunui]

Any Comments?

I agree with everything that you said for the most part, except the part of about enjoying watching ITF sparring. I would rather just watch sparring under the WTF competition rules. Also, I slightly disagree with the poomsae for self defense comment, because I think there are practitioners who can make them work for self defense. I agree in the sense that I don't practice poomsae for self defense, but recognize that others do, or at least try to.

 

[mastercole]

I am starting to believe that the only real unique Taekwondo is "Kukki"-Taekwondo:angel:. Our sparring style is totally unique and everyone can recognize it as Taekwondo. Because of our way of sparring, we now have totally unique kicking techniques, and you won't see our style of sparring in any other martial arts schools. Poomsae training is good for those who like that kind of thing, and I think that poomsae competitions have changed Taekwondo for the better. And as a result, I can see students' technical levels greatly improving. But people never want to talk about poomsae's usefulness in real-life situations. Well, I think that poomsae training has very little to do with self defense.


What about ITF-Taekwondo. Well, I like to watch their sparring, but I don't think their sparring style is unique at all. Sometimes you don't see much difference between Karate or ITF-Taekwondo fights. Now, notice I didn't say anything bad about ITF sparring!


Any Comments?

/Markku P.

Master Weiss can correct me here, but I believe that the ITF (Changhon) and Kukkiwon have all the same types of sparring, or close to it, minus Shihap Kyorugi (Olympic sparring) in the ITF side. I think the major things that makes our sparring curriculum unique, is #17 and it's full contact nature.

Here are the 17 types of sparring, in three categories from the Korea Taekwondo Association that were adopted by the Kukkiwon and are currently a part of it's official curriculum.

1st Category - general sparring types

#17 - Shihap Kyorugi; full contact sparring for self defense, competition, match (Olympic event)
#16 - Matchueo Kyorugi; light, medium and full contact pre-arranged sparring for self defense, competition preparation
#14 - Saebon Kyorugi; light contact/no contact pre-arranged three step sparring, for self defense, poomsae application
#13 - Hanbon Kyorugi; light/no contact pre-arranged one step sparring, for self defense, poomsae application
#15 - *Hanbon Matchueo Kyorugi (former name Shihap Daeryun); full/medium/light/no contact one time (stop action for point) free sparring for self defense, *previous competition system of KTA

2nd Category - special sparring types, all light to no contact only

#7 - Anja Kyorugi; sparring from sitting position, for self defense
#10 - Euija Kyorugi; sparring from chair sitting position, for self defense
#9 - Taksang Kyorugi; sparring from table sitting position, for self defense
#8 - nuweo Kyorugi; sparring from laying down position, for self defense ~ resting, sleeping or fall down
#1 - mompulki/mommakki aka Hoshinsul; sparing against control skill, pushing, pulling, pressing, holding, twisting, dragging. #1 Began with primitive man, developed more advance to #17. For self defense.

3rd Category - sparring against weapons types, all light to no contact only (no contact with blade)

#2 - Zzaleun-makdae matseogi; sparring against short stick, self defense
#3 - Kin-makdae matseogi; sparring against long stick, self defense
#4 - Zzaleun-kal matseogi; sparring agasint knife, self defense
#5 - Kin-kal matseogi; sparring against sword, self defense
#6 - Chang matseogi; sparring against spear, self defense
#12 - Kwon-chang matseogi; sparring against pistol, self defense ~ from Army
#11 - Chong-kum matseogi; sparring against rifle, self defense ~ from Army

 

[Markku P]

Here are the 17 types of sparring, in three categories from the Korea Taekwondo Association that were adopted by the Kukkiwon and are currently a part of it's official curriculum.

1st Category - general sparring types

#17 - Shihap Kyorugi; full contact sparring for self defense, competition, match (Olympic event)
#16 - Matchueo Kyorugi; light, medium and full contact pre-arranged sparring for self defense, competition preparation
#14 - Saebon Kyorugi; light contact/no contact pre-arranged three step sparring, for self defense, poomsae application
#13 - Hanbon Kyorugi; light/no contact pre-arranged one step sparring, for self defense, poomsae application
#15 - *Hanbon Matchueo Kyorugi (former name Shihap Daeryun); full/medium/light/no contact one time (stop action for point) free sparring for self defense, *previous competition system of KTA

2nd Category - special sparring types, all light to no contact only

#7 - Anja Kyorugi; sparring from sitting position, for self defense
#10 - Euija Kyorugi; sparring from chair sitting position, for self defense
#9 - Taksang Kyorugi; sparring from table sitting position, for self defense
#8 - nuweo Kyorugi; sparring from laying down position, for self defense ~ resting, sleeping or fall down
#1 - mompulki/mommakki aka Hoshinsul; sparing against control skill, pushing, pulling, pressing, holding, twisting, dragging. #1 Began with primitive man, developed more advance to #17. For self defense.

3rd Category - sparring against weapons types, all light to no contact only (no contact with blade)

#2 - Zzaleun-makdae matseogi; sparring against short stick, self defense
#3 - Kin-makdae matseogi; sparring against long stick, self defense
#4 - Zzaleun-kal matseogi; sparring agasint knife, self defense
#5 - Kin-kal matseogi; sparring against sword, self defense
#6 - Chang matseogi; sparring against spear, self defense
#12 - Kwon-chang matseogi; sparring against pistol, self defense ~ from Army
#11 - Chong-kum matseogi; sparring against rifle, self defense ~ from Army

Thank you Sir. Is it OK if I use this text?

/Markku P.

 

[mastercole]

Thank you Sir. Is it OK if I use this text?

/Markku P.

Certainly, please credit "Kukkiwon - World Taekwondo Academy"

 

[Manny]

I am starting to believe that the only real unique Taekwondo is "Kukki"-Taekwondo:angel:. Our sparring style is totally unique and everyone can recognize it as Taekwondo. Because of our way of sparring, we now have totally unique kicking techniques, and you won't see our style of sparring in any other martial arts schools. Poomsae training is good for those who like that kind of thing, and I think that poomsae competitions have changed Taekwondo for the better. And as a result, I can see students' technical levels greatly improving. But people never want to talk about poomsae's usefulness in real-life situations. Well, I think that poomsae training has very little to do with self defense.


What about ITF-Taekwondo. Well, I like to watch their sparring, but I don't think their sparring style is unique at all. Sometimes you don't see much difference between Karate or ITF-Taekwondo fights. Now, notice I didn't say anything bad about ITF sparring!


Any Comments?

/Markku P.

Well.... the sparring I am doing with my students is a little diferent from the WTF sparring, yes we still use kicks most of the times but also punch, our way of doing sparring is with some feints, dodges,parries and blocks and not always with arms hanging around, we don't use a lot of footwork because frankly I am more a straight guy than a bouncing Olimpic TKD fighter, the way I sparr is like we did in the mid 80's more conected to the ground with no so much jumpling/flying kicks.

Our poomsae is not like the one you see in the world championships because we are not poomsae champions but I think we do the poomsae very well with heart and soul.

Manny

 

[mastercole]

Well.... the sparring I am doing with my students is a little diferent from the WTF sparring, yes we still use kicks most of the times but also punch, our way of doing sparring is with some feints, dodges,parries and blocks and not always with arms hanging around, we don't use a lot of footwork because frankly I am more a straight guy than a bouncing Olimpic TKD fighter, the way I sparr is like we did in the mid 80's more conected to the ground with no so much jumpling/flying kicks.

Our poomsae is not like the one you see in the world championships because we are not poomsae champions but I think we do the poomsae very well with heart and soul.

Manny

Looks like you are doing Kukkiwon sparring version #15.

The Poomsae competitors at the WTF World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships are doing the Poomsae correctly, according to Kukkiwon standards. They very much do them with heart and soul and with the intention the Poomsae were designed for.

I certainly don't see how doing them incorrectly is doing them very well.

 

[ETinCYQX]

The Poomsae competitors at the WTF World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships are doing the Poomsae correctly, according to Kukkiwon standards. They very much do them with heart and soul and with the intention the Poomsae were designed for.

I certainly don't see how doing them incorrectly is doing them very well.

I think Manny may have meant he thinks his dojang does the forms very well, but not quite to the standard of poomsae champions.

 

[mastercole]

I think Manny may have meant he thinks his dojang does the forms very well, but not quite to the standard of poomsae champions.

Neither I, nor my students can currently perform Poomsae to the level of World Champion Poomsae competitors, but, we can all certainly use them as a model and strive for it. Their Poomsae is more correct than mine, or than my students. Maybe he was trying to say the same thing?

 

[ETinCYQX]

I think that's what he meant. For what it's worth my student's poomsae are better than mine, I keep having to look up Taegeuk 7 right before I go teach it.

 

[Manny]

I think Manny may have meant he thinks his dojang does the forms very well, but not quite to the standard of poomsae champions.

You got it! we are not poomsae comptetiotrs, althought once in a while we go to local or regional tournaments and right now students are competing inkyorugi and poomsae, myself wants to compete in poomsae and I know I have no serius chance amoung the state or national pommsae competitors because I don't train poomsae to that level BUT know my poomsae can be very good amoung local tkdoings who are not national level-

I think there is more than one way to do kata or poomsae, I am not the best in poomsae but certainly I am very good inside the standar of my dojan and that's fine for me. Also I am not the best fighter on my dojang but again I don't train exclusively sparring, however I can defend myself if need it.

Manny

 

[Manny]

Neither I, nor my students can currently perform Poomsae to the level of World Champion Poomsae competitors, but, we can all certainly use them as a model and strive for it. Their Poomsae is more correct than mine, or than my students. Maybe he was trying to say the same thing?

Yes you are right, my sambonim always polishing our poomsae, he is a very capable man with good credentials in the FISU and e is one of the top international judges/refrerees on my country, he always ask us aim for the best and there are some people who is good in poomsae and some not in the dojang, my lineaje (JDK) always put attention to details but frankly I do not train poomsae exclusively or for competition, I can say I am a rounded tkdoing, there are better than me and worst than me so I guess I am average.

Manny

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Master Weiss can correct me here, but I believe that the ITF (Changhon) and Kukkiwon have all the same types of sparring, or close to it, minus Shihap Kyorugi (Olympic sparring) in the ITF side. I think the major things that makes our sparring curriculum unique, is #17 and it's full contact nature.

Here are the 17 types of sparring, in three categories from the Korea Taekwondo Association that were adopted by the Kukkiwon and are currently a part of it's official curriculum.

1st Category - general sparring types

#17 - Shihap Kyorugi; full contact sparring for self defense, competition, match (Olympic event)
#16 - Matchueo Kyorugi; light, medium and full contact pre-arranged sparring for self defense, competition preparation
#14 - Saebon Kyorugi; light contact/no contact pre-arranged three step sparring, for self defense, poomsae application
#13 - Hanbon Kyorugi; light/no contact pre-arranged one step sparring, for self defense, poomsae application
#15 - *Hanbon Matchueo Kyorugi (former name Shihap Daeryun); full/medium/light/no contact one time (stop action for point) free sparring for self defense, *previous competition system of KTA

2nd Category - special sparring types, all light to no contact only

#7 - Anja Kyorugi; sparring from sitting position, for self defense
#10 - Euija Kyorugi; sparring from chair sitting position, for self defense
#9 - Taksang Kyorugi; sparring from table sitting position, for self defense
#8 - nuweo Kyorugi; sparring from laying down position, for self defense ~ resting, sleeping or fall down
#1 - mompulki/mommakki aka Hoshinsul; sparing against control skill, pushing, pulling, pressing, holding, twisting, dragging. #1 Began with primitive man, developed more advance to #17. For self defense.

3rd Category - sparring against weapons types, all light to no contact only (no contact with blade)

#2 - Zzaleun-makdae matseogi; sparring against short stick, self defense
#3 - Kin-makdae matseogi; sparring against long stick, self defense
#4 - Zzaleun-kal matseogi; sparring agasint knife, self defense
#5 - Kin-kal matseogi; sparring against sword, self defense
#6 - Chang matseogi; sparring against spear, self defense
#12 - Kwon-chang matseogi; sparring against pistol, self defense ~ from Army
#11 - Chong-kum matseogi; sparring against rifle, self defense ~ from Army

You've got me curious about the terminology you're using. I'm not a TKD practitioner, but I have the feeling that a number of these don't fall in the category of what I would call "sparring". (Not saying they aren't perfectly valid training exercises, just not what I would think of as sparring.) Could you go into some more detail about what some of these "sparring" methods would entail?

 

[mastercole]

You've got me curious about the terminology you're using. I'm not a TKD practitioner, but I have the feeling that a number of these don't fall in the category of what I would call "sparring". (Not saying they aren't perfectly valid training exercises, just not what I would think of as sparring.) Could you go into some more detail about what some of these "sparring" methods would entail?

We consider them all sparring. To much to detail. It was a lot to type out the types. However, you can research them if you like.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

We consider them all sparring. To much to detail. It was a lot to type out the types. However, you can research them if you like.

Any pointers on sites to check for details on those various methods? I've tried googling some of them and am not finding much detail.

I suspect you may be using a different definition for the word "sparring" than I'm used to. I consider sparring to be a free-from, non-predetermined training method where each partner is able to use a variety of techniques in an attempt to defeat their opponent's technique. The range of allowable techniques, targets, and level of contact may differ in various forms of sparring, but when you have both partners performing a predetermined pattern or when the "winner" is re-determined, I'd call it something else. A 2-person kata perhaps, or a technique drill.