I am an old fat guy who's decided to train in MA -- what do you think about my plan?
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The problem with caloric reduction is that over time your body adapts and gets more and more efficient (lower heart rate, lower blood pressure, slower hair and nail growth, lower stamina etc.) to face the lower caloric intake. Weight loss slows down and one can even rebound. You’ve probably heard of the yoyo effect…
On top of that not all calories are equal: 300 calories from an avocado or a mars bar will trigger completely different biochemical reactions; the mars bar will cause your blood sugar to surge, which will trigger a release of insulin and further reactions; the avocado on the other hand will barely influence your blood sugar and insulin levels.
So it’s not really the number of calories that matters but what your body does with that food intake.
That does not come from me but Dr. Jason Fung.
In order to have built a BMI of 46, our new friend must’ve been eating well beyond his metabolic requirements. Simply reducing his intake to what a man of his height should have will result in a gradual reduction in weight. He might enter starvation mode, but with lots of boxing (
) and associated exercise, he’ll get through that.Yes that’s true. Calories are just a unit of energy andy eat derived from differing sources is like warming yourself next to a pike of burning wood or kerosene or waste plastic. You’ll get heat but also different noxious byproducts as they burn.
Reductionism calories is a good start though and you will lose weight. My brother’s a GP who deals with obese people who tell him they have ‘hormone problems’ or a ‘slow metabolism’ which makes them fat. He used to reply with, ”Funny that you never saw fat people in prisoner of war camps“!
Just eat 2000 calories (or whatever) a day, derived mainly from plant sources, do your boxing and training regularly and frequently and you’ll be fit and healthy in 2-3 years. It’s not rocket science
It sounds like you’ve done really well already 
drop bear
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You still have to win that fight with the one person you are fighting before you worry about the potential other people.
Never try and do it all at once. To lose 100 lbs count on a year at least. Emphasize diet, then workouts. Do this like you have forever to get where you want. Then you will find you are doing it quicker and getting in shape like you've never been in. You can overdo it a little in the training dojo/gym but DO NOT overdo it at the training table.
‘Zone 2 Training’ seems to be really effective for…well every aspect of health, including weight loss.
The problem (for a ‘cardiophobe‘ like me) is the weekly duration required for effectiveness.
A slow metabolism can result from lasting caloric reduction: the body adapts to changing conditions and progressively uses less and less calories. That's the beginning of the yoyo effect that has been experienced by zillions of people sticking to the conventional diet for a longer period of time.Gyakuto said:
Reductionism calories is a good start though and you will lose weight. My brother’s a GP who deals with obese people who tell him they have ‘hormone problems’ or a ‘slow metabolism’ which makes them fat. He used to reply with, ”Funny that you never saw fat people in prisoner of war camps“!
Hormone problems? Absolutely, but self inflicted! Constant snacking of sweets and other junk food (but not only junk food) sends your blood sugar level through the roof, which results in excessive production of insulin (a hormone by the way), which tells your body cells to store fat. Over time, overweight results and diabetes type 2 is likely (because your body ends up no longer appropriately reacting to the permanent release of insulin).
The Ausschwitz diet? Yeah, it works fantastic, just like the North Corean diet and anorexia. And people thriiive on those diets. They are so happy and even praise their "dear leader" all the time. I heard of a few side effects though (a.o. death on large scale) but maybe I'm not well informed.
On a more serious note: a diet that can only be applied under constant life threat / oppression or when suffering a potentially lethal mental disorder is not a fair comparison or even a sustainable diet. It's not a viable option for a free man who has a life to live and stuff to do. It's just like advising someone to run (almost) non-stop for a couple of months to shed overweight. Why the enthousiasm for plant food now? What does it have to do with calories all of a sudden? Have you changed your mind? Do plant calories count different?Gyakuto said:
Just eat 2000 calories (or whatever) a day, derived mainly from plant sources, do your boxing and training regularly and frequently and you’ll be fit and healthy in 2-3 years. It’s not rocket science
Well actually yes, you are right on this: Animal proteins have been observed to increase insulin levels, leading to weight gain. So, yes, when losing weight, you should prioritize vegetables. And as you unwillingly acknowledge, it's not just about calories. Regular training is good to your health but plays a minor role when trying to lose weight: you still see MMA fighters with overweight. Do you want to suggest them taking up exercise to get in shape?
Not rocket science?
Then how comes so many people are overweight in spite of everything? Not all fat people are lazy: I (probably we all) know courageous and hard working people with overweight. That can't be as simple as always claimed by classical nutrition theory or GPs bluntly refering to the Ausschwitz diet.Taiji Rebel
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In recent years GPs have become more aware of the deeper benefits of nutrition and how it affects overall health and wellbeing. I am curious Gyakuto, do you know what kind of training your brother has received on nutrition and exercise? It would be interesting to know how many hours of training GPs are given on nutrition, healthy eating and exercise requirements.My brother’s a GP who deals with obese people who tell him they have ‘hormone problems’ or a ‘slow metabolism’ which makes them fat. He used to reply with, ”Funny that you never saw fat people in prisoner of war camps“!
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Taiji Rebel
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This is from 2018 but I wonder if training protocols have changed?
We learn nothing about nutrition, claim medical students
A leading GP estimated that up to 80% of his patients had conditions linked to lifestyle and diet.
www.bbc.co.uk
Taiji Rebel
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Here's another one:This is from 2018 but I wonder if training protocols have changed?
We learn nothing about nutrition, claim medical students
A leading GP estimated that up to 80% of his patients had conditions linked to lifestyle and diet.www.bbc.co.uk
"Results We pooled five heterogeneous sources of information, representing 853 participants. Most agreed on the importance of nutrition in health (>90%) and in a doctor’s role in nutritional care (>95%). However, there was less desire for more nutrition education in doctors (85%) and in medical students (68%). Most felt their nutrition training was inadequate, with >70% reporting less than 2 hours"
Army Regulation 600–9 - The Army Weight Control Program
Army Regulation 600–9 - The Army Weight Control Program
550cord.com
Sooooo… what’s your point?Army Regulation 600–9 - The Army Weight Control Program
Army Regulation 600–9 - The Army Weight Control Program
This is not a response to you, but a reading recommendation for the OP.Sooooo… what’s your point?
Others have said what you need to hear. I'll just say congrats on your weight loss and I wish you the best on your journey.
Normally, I recommend that potential students simply do their research to find locally convenient schools, pre-screen them to find those which work with their schedule and budget, then visit as many schools as possible to get a feel for the atmosphere and get a sense of whether they will enjoy the classes. If you don't enjoy the process of training, you won't stick with it consistently enough to get any real benefits.
I stand by all that, but in your case I'd recommend that you start by focusing on potential boxing gyms. You'll want to find one with a coach who is willing and able to work with students at a wide range of goals and physical abilities. You don't want a "boxercise" class, because that won't teach you real fighting skills. You don't want a coach who is focused exclusively on training competitive fighters, because the intensity will be at a higher level than you are currently prepared for.
Here's my reasoning:
Boxing can easily be adjusted to any degree of physical conditioning, from severely out-of-shape couch potatoes to elite athletes. Grappling arts like Judo, BJJ, and wrestling tend to have a higher floor for the level of physical exertion, even for beginners.
Boxing can produce decent levels of fighting ability in a relatively short period of time compared to many other systems. This is partially down to the standard coaching pedagogy and partly because it focuses on a small number of high-percentage techniques that can be explored in depth. It also covers one of the most common ranges for unarmed combat to begin (and often end) in.
It develops fundamental physical, mental, and technical attributes which will serve you well should you later decide to focus on a different martial art.
As long as the gym/coach does produce at least some competitive fighters, there is a built-in quality control that is often missing in other arts which claim to be more focused on street self-defense.
Should you end up later switching to a different boxing gym, there won't be any concerns about the new gym belonging to a different organization which has a different curriculum, won't recognize your rank, etc. Boxing is boxing.
Some thoughts concerning other options:
Close body grappling systems (Judo/BJJ/Wrestling/Sambo/etc) - as a BJJ instructor, I'm obviously a big fan of these and they all make an excellent complement to Boxing. However they are all significantly more complex*, take longer to get functionally competent in, and typically involve a higher minimum level of physical exertion compared to boxing. (BJJ would likely be easiest on your body since it normally has a greater emphasis on groundwork then on takedowns. However if your BJJ school doesn't include a significant amount of time working on stand up clinching, takedowns, and getting up from the ground then it won't meet your stated goal of learning self-defense. Knowing how to win fights on the ground doesn't help if you can't take the fight to the ground.) In your shoes I'd consider finding a BJJ/Judo/Wrestling/Sambo school once you've spent enough time boxing to develop a decent foundation and have gotten yourself in better shape.
*(More complex in that there are many more techniques and tactical situations to address. The complexity in boxing comes from exploring a smaller number of techniques and tactics to a high degree of depth.)
Muay Thai - this has many of the same advantages of boxing, but you'll have more techniques to learn. The kicking also tends to be more energy intensive than punching. This might be to your liking, as it will help you improve your fitness and lose weight faster. Or it might feel like a bit much at your current level of physical readiness.
MMA - some MMA gyms offer classes in separate arts (BJJ/Muay Thai/Boxing/wrestling/etc) which can then be combined and some offer straight "MMA" classes which take the fundamentals from those various component arts and teach you how to combine them. The advantage is that these classes typically cover the basic skills you will need in a wide range of situations and focus on getting you functional in a relatively short time frame. The disadvantage is that these classes are typically populated by athletes hoping to start a fight career and so the physical intensity may be higher level than you are ready for. Also you may or may not be able to find a coach who will teach with a focus on self-defense application of those skills rather than a sport context. If you can find a local MMA gym that offers separate classes for boxing, Muay Thai, BJJ, MMA, etc, that might be a good option to check out. You could start with one class and try the different options as you go along to find what fits you best.
Other traditional martial arts Karate, Kung Fu, Tae Kwon Do, Aikido, etc. - these can be quite the mixed bag. Quality can vary widely. The road to functional fighting skill typically takes a bit longer than for boxing. A given school may have a significant focus on aspects that you state you aren't interested in, such as personal or spiritual development. It is possible that if you stumble on a TMA with an inviting vibe and you give it a shot that you might find you enjoy it more than you thought you would based on your current goals. If that were to happen, it could be worth your while. As I said previously, enjoying the process is what leads you to stick with training consistently over time, which is an essential factor in developing functional ability. Sometimes when we try different things, we discover that what really draws us in isn't what we originally thought we wanted based on theoretical goals. However, based on your stated parameters, these sort of schools probably aren't going to be your first priority.
Weapons based systems, for example Kali. If you want the maximum ability to win a fight regardless of your physical condition, then the force multiplier of a weapon like a knife or stick (or gun if you live in a jurisdiction which allows it) can't be beat. However if you are studying for self-defense purposes, then weapons add a host of additional complications which may not be addressed in class. You need to consider legal aspects (is the weapon legal to carry, are you justified in using it in a given situation, if you are legally justified in using it are you prepared to defend that justification in court), practical aspects (how easy is it to always carry, to deploy under stress, to keep someone else from accessing it, how likely is it that you will escalate the situation by deploying it, what can go wrong if you have the weapon on your person but don't deploy it), and moral (are you prepared to potentially kill someone, especially if the situation might have been resolved otherwise without the presence of a weapon). On an unrelated note, most weapon arts won't give you the same workout and weight loss results that you'll get with unarmed fighting systems.
Hope that helps.
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Not rocket science?
Good question - I can answer it (for myself, at least, and for now). Perhaps it will add something to this excellent and (again remarkably) polite and considerate conversation.
Here are some of the reasons that I am fat, according to Interested Experts (GPs, sports medicine people, MDs, PAs, NPs, nephrologists, nutritionists, shrinks, and other specialists who may or may not have had the training to justify their advice, and, worst of all, whose opinion I may not even have solicited):
- I’m lazy.
- I’m a victim of uncontrollable hunger.
- I’m stupid – I’m not aware that I’m fat, you see.
- I’m immoral – I lack standards about my appearance, which is probably a sign that I lack standards about other things like politics and parenting.
- I’m immature – I’m just “a big baby” whose parents didn’t raise me right.
- I’m weak – I don’t have the inner strength to stick to exercise or nutritional programs.
- I’m genetically flawed – because one of my parents was fat, I was doomed, more or less.
- I’m a victim of “The Culture”/“The Economy”.
- I’m a victim of unresolved trauma – This one delivered most often by people with no knowledge of my history who nonetheless were willing to render an (incorrect) diagnosis minutes after our acquaintance.
I have so many stories about Interested Experts being completely wrong about the causes of my obesity that I’m not sure where to start, so I’ll start with my latest encounter.
Once I started losing weight this last time—down from my start at 432 and having reached 405 or so—I made an appointment with the nutrition unit of a major, world-renowned teaching hospital to get some advice. I told them explicitly and repeatedly in the run-up to the first appointment that I wanted nutritional advice only, that I DID NOT want information about or access to the new drugs. I spent the first 20 minutes of my hour-long appointment being read a summary of Ozempic and the whole mishpucah by a condescending training doctor who kept at it even when I interrupted him and asked if I could discuss my diet. "But this will tamp down your hunger," he said, multiple times with different wording.
When he continued to push back(!), I told him: "Please stop. I know why I’m fat. I'm not fat because I am hungry; I haven't been hungry in years. I’m fat because I am depressed." This depression has to do with a lot of unprocessed childhood trauma which I only started recently to understand and treat effectively. Shitty, sugar-laden food was the drug I took to handle the depression. If I had enjoyed alcohol, I would have used that; if I had been introduced to heroin and liked it, I would have used that, and so on (I’ve also had a hard time kicking nicotine and THC, but overeating was my real problem).
I won’t share the particular childhood trauma because it isn’t really essential to this conversation, but I will share that it was very public, tons of people knew about it, and NO-ONE, from school counselors to the parish priest to my immediate family, knew how to offer early intervention, care or guidance after it happened. The eating was a learned behavior from my family, who would use food to mask/battle their own depression (often about the same event that kicked off mine). If any of the list of “reasons” I mentioned above apply to drug addiction—if you’re stupid to do drugs, for instance—then I’m stupid as charged on all counts when it comes to food. But I know so many families where drinking and drug use are ongoing, inter-generational commitments to managing stress and trauma that it’s still surprising to me that people don’t recognize that sugar, salt, and fat play the same roles for other people.
For instance, back at college, I could drink a gallon of vodka at a party and feel only slightly inebriated. I’d also feel slightly grossed out. I just didn’t want it. It wasn’t a drug that “spoke” to me or my body, and—as my childhood trauma was starting to catch up to me at the time—I really wanted it to work! I TRIED to drink to excess. It just never made an impact. Some drugs work some people, some don't.
But lasagna, or candy, or coke, or french fries? They did the trick. And guess what? They were everywhere, they were legal, they were inexpensive, and the negative consequences of their consumption arrived only years after the habit was formed. Because eating, of course, is something that everyone has to do. No one blamed me for eating badly or too much until long after I started; they started blaming me for overeating ONLY when my weight started to balloon. But at that point the habit was already in place, and the insufferable, uninformed moralizing about it (you’re stupid, weak, a baby...on and on and on…) ONLY REINFORCED THE HABIT.
(Sorry for the caps, but I promise you this: If someone tells you that they lost weight because they were ridiculed by an *******, they're most likely defending their own need to be an ******* to someone else.)
The thing that broke it for me was a certain form of alternative therapy, which changed my life. Again, the details aren’t important for this conversation*, but within two weeks of my first experience, I was reducing calories and working out—lifting weights, low impact cardio, and so on. It removed a block for me, or an association – I wasn’t using my body to mediate and diffuse my grief anymore. My body wasn’t a separate battleground or treatment center where I worked it all out; it was just part of me, one part of me, and I could take care of it and enjoy inhabiting it. I wasn’t a big drug taker and was a genuine, if desperate, skeptic, but this alternative therapy treated my depression and anxiety, and I didn’t need the food to hold them at bay anymore.
As I mentioned, this is a personal story. Other people may have a different set of causes, or mix of the same ones, for overeating. And I’m not anywhere near done with it, as my first post demonstrates. In fact, six months in, I relapsed—someone dear to me died, and I slipped back into depression. Surprise surprise—I went back to not working out, and eating through my grief...but I could see why I was doing it this time; I could even see that I was doing it this time. I let I play out a little, didn’t beat myself up for “failing” (you’re stupid, weak, a baby...see how it works?) and then I got back on track. I’m down 82 pounds now, lowest I’ve been in twenty years.
So, to answer the question: I was overweight, in spite of everything, because of:
- childhood trauma and the depression and anxiety that came from it
- a lack of meaningful intervention in the wake of the trauma
- learned cultural behavior, i.e. my use of food as a drug to address depression and anxiety
- a genetic propensity to respond to food as a form of medication, and
- the easy and inexpensive availability of that drug
Hope this sheds some light, on one case at least...
--saav
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- #57
[SIDE NOTE: Although it’s changed for the better in recent years, I should note that many, many people generally have a problem with their obese acquaintances, and as a consequence treat them like anything from pitiable children to a visual eyesore. The presence of a fat person inspires, as mentioned, unsolicited advice (sometimes from lovely strangers, which is just awful), open insults, pity, and a shitload of unconscious responses that can be maddening. I mention this because—
First, I’m actually grateful for the recent introduction of the “woke” idea of microagressions, which is a concept that, like all concepts, can be abused and exaggerated. But it does describe something very real; I never had a word for it before, but now I know what to call it when a waiter or waitress brings me a diet coke instead of bringing me the coke I ordered, something that happened to me dozens and dozens of times when I was fat and still drinking coke. There are many more examples, all annoying.
Second, it explains why I have continually praised the tenor of the conversation on this board, which is remarkable for its civility, good humor, and lack of moralism and presumption. It’s helpful, and it makes me want to succeed, whether in MA or in weight loss. Thanks, all!]
First, I’m actually grateful for the recent introduction of the “woke” idea of microagressions, which is a concept that, like all concepts, can be abused and exaggerated. But it does describe something very real; I never had a word for it before, but now I know what to call it when a waiter or waitress brings me a diet coke instead of bringing me the coke I ordered, something that happened to me dozens and dozens of times when I was fat and still drinking coke. There are many more examples, all annoying.
Second, it explains why I have continually praised the tenor of the conversation on this board, which is remarkable for its civility, good humor, and lack of moralism and presumption. It’s helpful, and it makes me want to succeed, whether in MA or in weight loss. Thanks, all!]
I can understand your reluctance to try Ozempic especially after reading the list of possible side effects
But it is a miracle drug, in my opinion, and it’s future variants will be even more miraculous (hopefully reestablishing cranial hair growth)Hi Saav,
That's a lot of insight. Thank you for opening up. You've definitely been considering your weight issues deeply and can think for yourself! Congrats! I love that. Doing this deep reflexion, you have set the right course to a better and healthier version of yourself.
Telling you to cut down on calories would just make as much sense as telling an alcoholic to cut down on alcoholic beverages. That just does not tackle the problem at the root. I am so glad you've gained so much insight and know better.
Keep on this way, keep on writing your fantastic success story. Tell us about your progress in MA and healthwise. It has the stuff to be a great and motivating sucess story.
(and I reiterate my hint to "The obesity code" by Jason Fung, a real game changer)
That's a lot of insight. Thank you for opening up. You've definitely been considering your weight issues deeply and can think for yourself! Congrats! I love that. Doing this deep reflexion, you have set the right course to a better and healthier version of yourself.
Telling you to cut down on calories would just make as much sense as telling an alcoholic to cut down on alcoholic beverages. That just does not tackle the problem at the root. I am so glad you've gained so much insight and know better.
Keep on this way, keep on writing your fantastic success story. Tell us about your progress in MA and healthwise. It has the stuff to be a great and motivating sucess story.
(and I reiterate my hint to "The obesity code" by Jason Fung, a real game changer)
drop bear
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Weight loss is a mental game much more than a correct technique game.
Try this. Plus one. Minus one.
Add one piece of exercise. Cut out one piece of crap.
Rinse and repeat.
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