Absolute newbie, Portland Oregon. What are my options?

[Daniel Sullivan]

I will echo some of the advice--absolutely visit as many schools as you can. sometimes a great style can have a bad teacher, so don't sign up just because it has the Wing Chun or BJJ name on it etc.

Some people here are defending TKD, but unless you want to do sport, I would avoid it like the plague that it is.
There are probably more TKD mcdojo's than anything else, and it's not that good of a style to begin with! That is probably the one single type of school that I would not even waste my time going into. Are there TKD people who can fight--sure. But there are also ballerinas that can fight, and the comparison is more of an insult to ballerinas.

Wing Chun is a great style, also look for a baguazhang or xingyi instructor (hard to find though). When you narrow it down to a list of 10 or so, post up their websites or vids if available and I'm sure you will get some help from the great folks here at MT.

You have gotten some great advice re the knife. For god sake learn how to use it, deploy it, and retain it. You might be better off carrying a non-lethal option in addition to the knife, stun-gun/pepper spray.

G

See the bolded.

I agree with the McDojo comment. Not a rip on the art; it is a very popular art and there are a lot of commercialized schools that teach it. I would go so far as to say that the McDojo issue hit taekwondo harder than any other art.

As for 'not that good to begin with,' well "good" relative. I know a lot of people in different martial arts and very few of them are actually looking for a gritty self defense art. Most of them just want to engage in a physical activity with friendly people in an environment where you don't have to wear gym shorts. For them, taekwondo, or anything else for that matter, is fine. Taekwondo is also a good art for kids, mainly due to the layout of the majority of taekwondo schools, most of which seem to have well developed kids programs.

However, not all taekwondo is the same and not everyone's experience with it matches your own. There are a good number of people here who train at SD oriented TKD schools, though I would agree that such schools number fewer than the more mainstream schools. Just a heads up; I would avoid calling any art a plague here. It is rude and unnecessary. You can get your point across without insulting what others do.

Incidentally, you promote Wing Chun. I have seen as much or more scathing commentary about that art in some places as I do taekwondo. I don't pay it much mind; I know someone who did Wing Chun and anytime I've had questions about it, I've asked her (she also has practiced baguazhang or xingyi). Not my thing, but I wouldn't discourage anyone from it, and based on what I've seen of it, the style has a lot to offer.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Hello all,

My name is Thomas. I signed up for this forum to learn more about martial arts, prior to actually taking classes. I've never been in a real fight(kid fights don't count right?), nor do I have any experience with martial arts except movies such as Ip Man and Fearless. However, I have always wanted to learn and recently, I starting researching it in detail.

My personal favorite martial art is Wing Chun. Donnie Yen is famous for this style, and it was an absolute joy to watch him beat the everloving crap out of villians in Ip man and Ip man 2.

Welcome to the forum, Thomas.

If your only MA experience is movies, even two really good ones, then what you have is not experience in martial arts, but exposure to movie fighting. Real fights and self defense scenarios never resemble what is seen in the movies.

My primary goal is self-defense. I'm not the type to start fights(in fact I try very hard to reason my way out of fighting), but if one starts I would certainly like to be able to finish it. Other than that, I'm looking to lose my beer belly and quicken my reflexes. My funds are extremely limited, however I can definitely save up to buy needed equipment. My dad has cleared out a 5'x7' section of the basement for use as a workout area, and we plan to install a pull-up bar in the rafters. I also have a pretty spacious back yard if that's needed to. I'm looking to do the actual exercising at home, and the learning in class.

So here it is, layed out as best I can:

I need some sort of daily workout routine(or a weekly, work-rest-work-rest....whathaveyou) that I can do at home. I've been told jump roping is great for legs and pull ups good for arms, but that A) came from friends who may or may not know what they're talking about, and B) only covers my limbs instead of my entire body. Any thoughts or workout plans of your own? I'm 6ft, 220 pounds, and I can lift a fair amount of weight. I believe my record is 45lb barbells in each hand. Please, hold your applause at that world record, haha.

The jump rope and the pull up bar are good ideas. In terms of fitness equipment, you really don't need all that much. Calisthenics, jumping rope, pull ups, and running all go a very long way, especially when coupled with regular practice.

I would like to know if there are any Wing Chun classes in the Portland area or surrounding suburbs. Wing Chun would be my first choice, but other than Sambo, I don't have any idea as to what other martial arts might meet my standards.

I don't live in the area, but see what is available. I could recommend a plethora of arts, but if they aren't available to you, then you're right back where you started. What I do recommend is to find out what is available and then visit the schools in person. See what the training environment is like, what they're teaching, and what their focus is.

Also, ask about how the school does business. What are their prices like? If the art and the school are great but you cannot afford it, then it still doesn't help you. Do they make you sign contracts or do automatic bank drafting? Regardless of the art, I generally advice avoiding the first and categorically refuse to join a school that requires the second.

Regarding taekwondo, I read your mention of it below. I would almost say the opposite; it is probably better suited to young people and most of the schools in my area market to kids and teens, though I have seen many people over fifty start the art and do well with it. I tend to see tai chi advertised for the purpose of keeping the elderly flexible in my area, though I know that there is a lot more to tai chi than that.

Most taekwondo schools that I have encountered teach with similar methods, starting with basics and building from there. It won't resemble what I have seen of Wing Chun, and a year of it won't make you a killer fighter. It will develop good straight punches, front kicks, side kicks, and round house kicks, along with a variety of hard blocks in a fairly short amount of time.

Regardless of what art you pick, practice the basics of the art so that you can use them without having to think about using them. Personally, I think that the most dangerous thing that you can do in a self defense situation is freeze. It really doesn't matter what art you train in if you end up just standing there trying to figure out which part of it to use.

What equipment is needed to practice in solitude? I saw Donnie Yen talking about a wooden dummy that has three 'arms' and one crooked 'leg' that he said is good for a single person to train with. Is there any validity to that?

Not much. To just practice, you don't "need" any equipment, though having a striking target of some kind is very helpful if you practice a striking art. I've never personally trained Wing Chun, so I have no comment on the wooden dummy, though I'm sure it is a valid training device. A heavy bag, a speed bag, and maybe a 'Bob' dummy can be helpful.

All in all, I'm just looking for advice, preferably from Wing Chun instructors, but hey, beggars can't be choosers, right?


Thanks all, have a great one!
Drame22

Donny Yen is a great martial artist, but his movies are movies, not SD presentations. Movies are designed to tell a story, and movie fights are designed to propel the plot and demonstrate things about the characters. They also tend to reflect the preferences of the fight chorographer (look at how dramatically different the first Star Wars trilogy sword work was to that of the second one; two very good, but very different choreographers).

Don't fixate on a style or movie martial arts. Find what is available to you. If a boxing gym is the only thing in your area or the only thing that you can afford, go there.

You mention Kung Fu, BJJ and Taekwondo, along with western sword.

Since you're not looking at sword work, you can probably elminate the fencing halls, unless they incorporate western unarmed fighting.

Kung fu means 'hard work' and encompasses probably more than fifty styles, including Wing Chun.

BJJ is a fantastic grappling art that is similar to judo. Steve could tell you a lot more about than I can. But if you want a striking art, I don't believe it covers that element.

Taekwondo schools are ubiquitous and the quality from school to school varies wildly. As I said earlier, it will develop good straight punches, front kicks, side kicks, and round house kicks, along with a variety of hard blocks in a fairly short amount of time. If it is a Kukkiwon school, expect at least some WTF sparring, which is mostly kicks, all mid to high line. It isn't for everyone. Find out if the school has a self defense curriculum and check out the class. A lot of TKD instructors have had some hapkido exposure (some more than others) and incorporate it into their classes, but that is not the norm.

Check out the schools. See what you like, what you can afford, and what matches your schedule. Dig for more; there are often instructors who teach from community centers or home studios that you will not find by just driving through town and who will not come up at the top of an internet search.

And whatever you end up doing, practice.

 

[TaiChiTJ]

Thomas, in 1947 a system of self defense called Kajukenbo was created under the leadership of a man named Adrian Emperado, in Hawaii. It encompasses many of the attributes you say you are looking for, I think. I did a quick google search and came up with one school, I am sure there are others:

http://www.cropperkungfu.com/info-starkstreet.html

You might take a look, see what you think. I am by no means knowledgeable about the system, but we do have experts here on MartialTalk who teach it and discuss it. And by the way, WC is a good art, too!
Good Luck in your searching.

 

[DennisBreene]

I think you've gotten some excellent advice here. Sometimes a few simple principles for evaluating a school could be helpful for the non-initiate. Look for a school with excellent instruction is all well and good but it may be a little difficult to identify what qualifies as excellent instruction. I would look for classes that are well organized, students who maintain focus or are appropriatly redirected to focus if they drift. Does there appear to be a clear progression of skill; do the green belts appear significantly more skilled than the white belts, black belts more skilled than brown belts, or do the skill levels seem relatively random. I think this can give you a clue as to whether the instructor promotes on merit or wallet. Are the students respectful of each other and you. Do you see senior students assisting junior students in learning techniques. On the whole, do the students seem physically fit?. Don't be afraid to ask about the Master instructors pedigree. Then check out his or her instructors if possible. Good schools usually have a lineage that traces back to respected Masters (at least in the more traditional styles). Are there a significant number of senior ranking teachers and students who actively practice. A well established master ussually has promoted a number of black belts (in styles that conform to that type of belt style). Good masters tend to keep their black belts as students so I'd be wary of a master with a 7th degree for example who only has a couple of practicing black belts and they are fairly junior black belts. These are kind of soft indicators of quality but they may be helpful. Nothing beats taking a class or two to get a feel for the school. Definately avoid protracted contract schemes. BTW, if you are attracted to kicking styles, a more tradional Moo Duk Kwan or Tang Soo Do school might be a better fit than the newer version of Tae Kwon Do (and yes, that was a shameless plug).

 

[Dirty Dog]

I think you've gotten some excellent advice here. Sometimes a few simple principles for evaluating a school could be helpful for the non-initiate. Look for a school with excellent instruction is all well and good but it may be a little difficult to identify what qualifies as excellent instruction. I would look for classes that are well organized, students who maintain focus or are appropriatly redirected to focus if they drift. Does there appear to be a clear progression of skill; do the green belts appear significantly more skilled than the white belts, black belts more skilled than brown belts, or do the skill levels seem relatively random. I think this can give you a clue as to whether the instructor promotes on merit or wallet. Are the students respectful of each other and you. Do you see senior students assisting junior students in learning techniques. On the whole, do the students seem physically fit?. Don't be afraid to ask about the Master instructors pedigree. Then check out his or her instructors if possible. Good schools usually have a lineage that traces back to respected Masters (at least in the more traditional styles). Are there a significant number of senior ranking teachers and students who actively practice. A well established master ussually has promoted a number of black belts (in styles that conform to that type of belt style). Good masters tend to keep their black belts as students so I'd be wary of a master with a 7th degree for example who only has a couple of practicing black belts and they are fairly junior black belts. These are kind of soft indicators of quality but they may be helpful. Nothing beats taking a class or two to get a feel for the school. Definately avoid protracted contract schemes.

Good points here, and earlier in the thread. with the caveat that there may well be some lower ranked students with technical skills as good as those of higher ranked students. We have a young man who is currently a 4th geup who has an absolutely lovely side kick. It's prettier than mine, in part because of his inate flexibility. But he has more material to learn, as well as a more mature understanding of what he is being taught, before he will be ready for promotion. He also needs to learn to develop a lot more power in this kick. But it sure looks pretty.
As with "excellent instruction", individual skill can be more difficult to judge than one might imagine.

BTW, if you are attracted to kicking styles, a more tradional Moo Duk Kwan or Tang Soo Do school might be a better fit than the newer version of Tae Kwon Do (and yes, that was a shameless plug).

Um, Moo Duk Kwan is a school, not a style. MDK schools teach Tang Soo Do, Soo Bahk Do, or Tae Kwon Do depending on their individual lineage. And since ALL MDK schools trace back to the exact same origins, how do you figure that TKD MDK is newer?

 

[DennisBreene]

Good points here, and earlier in the thread. with the caveat that there may well be some lower ranked students with technical skills as good as those of higher ranked students. We have a young man who is currently a 4th geup who has an absolutely lovely side kick. It's prettier than mine, in part because of his inate flexibility. But he has more material to learn, as well as a more mature understanding of what he is being taught, before he will be ready for promotion. He also needs to learn to develop a lot more power in this kick. But it sure looks pretty.
As with "excellent instruction", individual skill can be more difficult to judge than one might imagine.



Um, Moo Duk Kwan is a school, not a style. MDK schools teach Tang Soo Do, Soo Bahk Do, or Tae Kwon Do depending on their individual lineage. And since ALL MDK schools trace back to the exact same origins, how do you figure that TKD MDK is newer?

All good points. As to the issue of MDK Schools as originated by Hwang Kee, I was trying to be overly brief and provide key words to look for, ie. Moo Duk Kwan and Tang Soo Do that might indicate a more traditional style. The system changes of the late 1900's and the olympic styles of Tae Kwon Do (Korea's overarching designation of all empty hand fighting, so to speak) are in my perception a bit more "sport Karate" oriented and I was simplistically trying to make a distinction between what I percieve to be "old school" vs "new school". My impression is that our newbie is inclined toward a more traditional approach and I vastly over simplified the issue in my attempt to give him some guidance in what to look into. I did not intend to disparage either the older Korean traditions or the newer modifications. Sometimes my flexibility is still adequate to achieve getting my foot firmly lodged in my mouth.

 

[Manseau]

Hi Drame22, You are fortunate to have resources available to you in this area and also the good insight on this site. Mark Moy in Vancouver is a respected instructor who is also a genuinely nice person. David Leung comes up periodically from Eugene and uses Mark's studio for WC and Tai Chi seminars. I also know folks who have used NW Fighting Arts without complaint. There are good teachers just like there are good students. The students that are working hard to improve their skill seldom complain because of their sense of self and dedication. The students that complain instead of leaving are the ones that keep those schools in business. Craigslist, under martial arts "all community" might be a good resource (either responding to an ad or placing) one for an entry level workout partner or martial arts instruction at entry level. One thing that should be kept in mind, if you pay for classes you will get a return that is equal to what you put into it. If you use someone else's time and experience for free, it is not going to last unless you are dedicated......that shows respect for the person that has traveled the path you are starting on. Ultimately, it is up to you to do due diligence to find your way. Hope this helps. Good Luck, David

 

[nocturnal_]

I'm not an instructor, but I've done Wing Chun in three different places.

My personal favorite martial art is Wing Chun. Donnie Yen is famous for this style, and it was an absolute joy to watch him beat the everloving crap out of villians in Ip man and Ip man 2.

While it was clearly Wing Chun that he did in those 2 movies, the moves were choreographed to make it beautiful for the audience to see. Wing Chun is known as an 'ugly' martial art, stressing on efficiency rather than beautiful and elegant movements.

My primary goal is self-defense. I'm not the type to start fights(in fact I try very hard to reason my way out of fighting), but if one starts I would certainly like to be able to finish it.

Wing Chun is great for self defense, as it's a style that's meant for street fighting, not for sport.

Other than that, I'm looking to lose my beer belly and quicken my reflexes. My funds are extremely limited, however I can definitely save up to buy needed equipment. My dad has cleared out a 5'x7' section of the basement for use as a workout area, and we plan to install a pull-up bar in the rafters. I also have a pretty spacious back yard if that's needed to. I'm looking to do the actual exercising at home, and the learning in class.

Compared to some other arts, the fitness and cardio components of Wing Chun are quite light. From Wing Chun training alone, you may lose your beer belly, but probably not as fast as from doing other arts. It's not a style that's heavy on physical exercise. It emphasises the economy of movement.

Your reflexes will improve as it's one of the fastest styles.

You don't need much space for practicing Wing Chun. It's a style that meant for close range fighting. You can fight inside the elevator or in a small alley using Wing Chun.

What equipment is needed to practice in solitude? I saw Donnie Yen talking about a wooden dummy that has three 'arms' and one crooked 'leg' that he said is good for a single person to train with. Is there any validity to that?

You wouldn't need the wooden dummy until at least a year or two. In most Wing Chun schools, you need to master the applications on the first two (three in some schools) empty hand forms, before you start learning the Wooden Dummy form.

For training alone, a heavy bag would be more useful at this stage, although you'll improve much faster if you can find a training partner.