Hwang Kee's possible teachers or influences?

[reeskm]

I want to add Doshin So (Michiomi Nakano) to my OP in the list of people in Manchukuo with MA experience.

He lived there from 1928-1946. I forgot to add him but he's been on my "interesting" list for a long time.
As a half-joke, Shorinji Kempo's cult like organizational methods just seem to be too familiar! LOL

 

[reeskm]

You're much more likely to see those fancy red/white or red/black or solid red belts among Shorin-ryu practitioners.

I had to re-read this. I think we misunderstood each other. I was referring to the belt not with alternating stripes (like Judo white/red belt or shorin-ryu belts) but the type where there is one main solid colour and a complete stripe runing through the center.

The Goshin Goju Ryu Belt System
Belts of Dan 6-9 at this website illustrate the type of belt I am referring to.

When I wrote Hanshi McCarthy the only thing he mentioned was that he believed this style of belt (with the stripe running through the center) was borrowed from Yuishinkan.
"I did know this about Gojukai … but it’s relatively new and “borrowed” from the Yuishinkai. I am also aware of MDK/TSD, too."

Long weekend time! Have a great one!

 

[reeskm]

TSDTexan,

Of course it could have been just Yoon Byung-In.
But I have a Toyama tradition dojo in my town, and the Sensei does a LOT of things the way TSD does...

You made this in the former "Post your lineage to Hwang Kee" thread. Could you elaborate? I'm very interested in what you are saying here. I don't have a Toyama/Shudokan lineage dojo in my area. Information is quite scarce on the internet and youtube that seems to be of any help in helping me understand.

 

[punisher73]

In his latest book, The History of Moo Duk Kwan (1995), which is available through the United States Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation, Hwang Kee states on pages 15 and 16 that his knowledge and understanding of the majority of forms taught within Tang Soo Do, including the Pyong Ahn Hyung, came through reading and studying Japanese books on Okinawan Karate. Hwang discovered these books in the Library of the train station in Seoul where he worked in 1939 (Hwang, 1995). We can only speculate as to which books these were, but it is known that Funakoshi and others published books on Karate as far back as 1922. While the above information was withheld for 50 years, the clue could always be found within the forms themselves. It has been known for many years that the Karate-Ka in Japan switched the order of the first two forms from their original. Hence, anyone who trains in a traditional Okinawan school have the original order, while those that trace lineage through a Japanese school have Pinan No. 2 as their version of Pinan No. 1, and vice versa. Tang Soo Do practitioners need to take note here as their order is the same as used by the Japanese schools.

I have seen this above quote in various places, this specific one was pulled from this website: The Truth about Pyong Ahn Hyungs –

 

[reeskm]

I'm glad you brought this up Punisher73, because I think this line of reasoning is often repeated but full of holes.

First of all, the statement from Hwang's The History of the Moo Duk Kwan that you specifically quote is yet again another ridiculous white lie. Of course, it no doubt has some truth to it. But have you actually read copies of the books available in 1937, or published before 1937? Many of them are easy to access in digital form through the Hawaii Seininkai. The biggest way to blow this theory out the water is to notice that none of these books describe the Moo Duk Kwan kata syllabus (or any other style like Shotokan or Shitoryu) with enough photos or illustrations to be able to reconstruct the kata without an instructor. Even today's books have only managed to capture most of the details necessary (but not all!) that you need to perform the kata. (see below for a real example of this)

Secondly, the argument that Hwang read Funaoshi's Karate-Do Kyohan and then based his karate on it can't be true. The techniques and methods illustrated in the book are different.

Take, as an example, Funakoshi's Karate-do Kyohan published in 1935. It was easily available in 1937. This was the second major book that Funakoshi published, and unlike later editions all the technical photos were of Funakoshi performing the moves himself. The first was ultra rare as the original manuscript that he wrote and the printing plates for it were lost in the 1922 Great Kanto Earthquake, which he mentions in this (1935) edition.

If you consult the Neptune Publications re-tranlsation, arguably the most word for word and picture for picture accurate translation to English, you can prove this to yourself.

For example, on Page 43, Funakoshi illustrates Heian Shodan. His ready stance is totally different than modern Shotokan and the famous Moodukkwan chunbee. Our chunbee is most similar to the Renbukai style. Toes straight, fists in front of the belt, one fist apart, etc. Funakoshi's has his feet very wide apart, toes pointing out at 45 degrees and fists in front of his thighs. Why then does Hwang not do it this way, if his model is Funakoshi's famous book?

Regarding an example of very few pictures, you can also look to Funakoshi's book. Heian Shodan is very well explained and illustrated with photographs. However, Heian Nidan has almost the same number of moves as shodan, but only 7 photographs. Other problems exist. Bassai Sho is not in the Kyohan at all. Kanku (kong sang koon) has only 8 photographs and is impossible to perform properly with only written words! Seisan has only 4 photos... I think you get the point.

It is possible he "learned" some things from the library at the Yongsan Rail yards, attached to the Imperial Japanese Army military base that he worked at (if it's true that he worked there at all like he claims), but I'm pretty sure he didn't learn Karate from books.

You do realize that the Ministry of Transportation was an arm of the Imperial Japanese Occupational Government in 1937, right? If anything, Hwang had a really good motivation to hide the names and identities of his teachers - or else, why wouldn't he just come out and say who it was? So, to confuse the rest of us, he just said "Oh, I learned it from books I found in the library" and continued his usual vague stories of his shady past.

 

[dancingalone]

It is possible he "learned" some things from the library at the Yongsan Rail yards, attached to the Imperial Japanese Army military base that he worked at (if it's true that he worked there at all like he claims), but I'm pretty sure he didn't learn Karate from books.

I think the simplest and most logical explanation is that Hwang Kee learned and/or refined his forms through his association with Lee Won Kuk though he probably also used books too at some point. Hwang was already an experienced martial artist and would not have found it difficult to adapt the Chung Do Kwan style. Any variance in forms and their method of execution came from Hwang's reinterpretation along with contributions from other Koreans that joined or affiliated with the Moo Duk Kwan.

Just my conjecture.