How would you compare the grappling arts on their ability to escape the ground game?

[Gweilo]

You mention NHB, I had a little exepience with unliscensed fighting, in the early 1990's, we didnt have pretty rings or referees though, kidney punches and eye gouging was aloud, as was pretty much anything else.
I understand in modern mma, your opponent is trying to hurt or finish you, or if you dont tap out someting is going to break, but my original comments were on the diffence between sport and self defense, in sport you have the referee, doctors at ringside and a set of rules, with these things in play, you train to a cealing, because of the safe guards, and because of these safe gaurds you do not train to defend a kidney punch, because its not aloud, you do not defend eye gouges because its not aloud, if you get a thumb in the eye its an accident per say, you train for sport, entertainment and money, should you reach an elite level.
Someone teained in mma is probaly going to destroy the bloke in the bar, on an inexoerienced person, the same can be saidmof any ma, apart from an aggresive fast attack, against a trained opponent, you chances will dwindle rapidly.

 

[drop bear]

You mention NHB, I had a little exepience with unliscensed fighting, in the early 1990's, we didnt have pretty rings or referees though, kidney punches and eye gouging was aloud, as was pretty much anything else.
I understand in modern mma, your opponent is trying to hurt or finish you, or if you dont tap out someting is going to break, but my original comments were on the diffence between sport and self defense, in sport you have the referee, doctors at ringside and a set of rules, with these things in play, you train to a cealing, because of the safe guards, and because of these safe gaurds you do not train to defend a kidney punch, because its not aloud, you do not defend eye gouges because its not aloud, if you get a thumb in the eye its an accident per say, you train for sport, entertainment and money, should you reach an elite level.
Someone teained in mma is probaly going to destroy the bloke in the bar, on an inexoerienced person, the same can be saidmof any ma, apart from an aggresive fast attack, against a trained opponent, you chances will dwindle rapidly.

How would training to defend a punch not be training to defend an eye gouge?

Even a kidney punch means they have managed to cut an angle you have never wanted them to cut in the first place.

The referee doesn't win the fight for you. He just stops it when you loose. The point is even if the fight is to the death the probability of who will win doesn't change very much.

 

[drop bear]

You mention NHB, I had a little exepience with unliscensed fighting, in the early 1990's, we didnt have pretty rings or referees though, kidney punches and eye gouging was aloud, as was pretty much anything else.
I understand in modern mma, your opponent is trying to hurt or finish you, or if you dont tap out someting is going to break, but my original comments were on the diffence between sport and self defense, in sport you have the referee, doctors at ringside and a set of rules, with these things in play, you train to a cealing, because of the safe guards, and because of these safe gaurds you do not train to defend a kidney punch, because its not aloud, you do not defend eye gouges because its not aloud, if you get a thumb in the eye its an accident per say, you train for sport, entertainment and money, should you reach an elite level.
Someone teained in mma is probaly going to destroy the bloke in the bar, on an inexoerienced person, the same can be saidmof any ma, apart from an aggresive fast attack, against a trained opponent, you chances will dwindle rapidly.

What I advocate for self defense is mma plus. Not mma lite.

Or in this case wrestling plus.

 

[Gweilo]

The referee doesn't win the fight for you. He just stops it when you loose. The point is even if the fight is to the death the probability of who will win doesn't change very much.

No he does not, but he stops you from getting permanately hurt or killed, we have all seen those fights where a fighter gets hit and is KO'd, as the out fighter hits the deck, the other fighter wants to continue to pound, the ref jumps in and stops it, in some cases shoulder barges a fighter out the way. Whether you admit it or not, this is a safe guard, even if its only in the subconscious mind, unless you are suggesting mma fighters are omnipotent.
In the UK at present 1v1 is 60% of street altercations, 34% of these 1v1 a weapon is used, 40% of street altercations involve more than 2 people (these altercations do not include crowd gatherings like organised violence at soccer matches etc, but do contain altercations of smaller groups, that may be related), there are no referees in these situations, whether mma people want to admit it or not, they are very good at fighting one person in a controlled enviroment, in the real world your odds or training is no better or worse than any other trained combatent, if you do not train in defense again multiple attackers and situational awarness, your chances diminish rapidly, if you tie an opponent up with grappling or wrestling in the real world chances are you are a sitting duck for another adversary. The key is movement and continual movement in the real word.

 

[drop bear]

No he does not, but he stops you from getting permanately hurt or killed, we have all seen those fights where a fighter gets hit and is KO'd, as the out fighter hits the deck, the other fighter wants to continue to pound, the ref jumps in and stops it,

There is nothing you can do if you are knocked out. There is no self defense solution to defending yourself after you get knocked out and rule one in sports is do everything you can to not get knocked out.

So how does the ref jumping in change a tactic or a technique or a concept when it comes to self defense vs sport?

 

[drop bear]

if you do not train in defense again multiple attackers and situational awarness, your chances diminish rapidly, if you tie an opponent up with grappling or wrestling in the real world chances are you are a sitting duck for another adversary. The key is movement and continual movement in the real word.

And this is wrong as well. To make a case that someone's training is inconsistent in an area you have to make a case that there is training that is more consistent.

Ok. Here is what I mean. You don't train to fight elephants. If you fought an elephant you would probably die.

Luckily I do train to fight elephants and so am much more capable in self defense.

The problem is an elephant would kill either of us regardless. And I have never fought an elephant and so have no idea if my training or your training is better in that case.

If I dress up a person as an elephant it is also not really going to make my case.

So the comment that we train to fight multiple attackers has to come with a lot more evidence to be a credible statement.


And of course there is this.

 

[drop bear]

if you do not train in defense again multiple attackers and situational awarness, your chances diminish rapidly,

And this.

Ok. So situational awareness is tricky. Here is how to be situationally aware so as not to be eaten by a crocodile.

Now you will notice there is nothing about seeing a crocodile and reacting to it.

 

[Gweilo]

Ok, so you not are getting what I am saying about sport v SD, how often do you spar multiple attackers?, do you spar multiple attackers where anything goes? Or is it just hitting with the gloves on? We obviously have a different opinion on situational awarness, although being around crocs and gators it would be a good advice to teach your kids the video, sadly we dont have crocs of elephants roaming the UK (have seen a few women around the supermarket that resemble such things). I know a few people who train mma, and the drill in Multiple attackers is new to them, so if that is your gym (and not a ramdom pluck from youtube), then well done to the instructor, especially if such drills are more complex, and the receiver in said video was either new to it or knackered, as there was little movement from him when he was under pressure other than running, and he exposed his ribs and kidneys abit, so it was probably a good job none of the others, used such strikes.
I dont know what more I can say about the referee being their, other than trying to reword what I already stated, with refs and rules in place, its very very very unliklely you are going to get seriously hurt or killed, and sport fighters in the back if their mind know this.

 

[drop bear]

Ok, so you not are getting what I am saying about sport v SD, how often do you spar multiple attackers?, do you spar multiple attackers where anything goes? Or is it just hitting with the gloves on? We obviously have a different opinion on situational awarness, although being around crocs and gators it would be a good advice to teach your kids the video, sadly we dont have crocs of elephants roaming the UK (have seen a few women around the supermarket that resemble such things). I know a few people who train mma, and the drill in Multiple attackers is new to them, so if that is your gym (and not a ramdom pluck from youtube), then well done to the instructor, especially if such drills are more complex, and the receiver in said video was either new to it or knackered, as there was little movement from him when he was under pressure other than running, and he exposed his ribs and kidneys abit, so it was probably a good job none of the others, used such strikes.
I dont know what more I can say about the referee being their, other than trying to reword what I already stated, with refs and rules in place, its very very very unliklely you are going to get seriously hurt or killed, and sport fighters in the back if their mind know this.

Can you sho me a video of what you are trying to describe please?

 

[drop bear]

I dont know what more I can say about the referee being their, other than trying to reword what I already stated, with refs and rules in place, its very very very unliklely you are going to get seriously hurt or killed, and sport fighters in the back if their mind know this.

How do you go in a hard sparring session?

Because I have found people who are not used to that sort of environment mentality break well before they die if they are not used to it.

I have submitted self defense guys out with knee on belly.

And these are self defense guys who in theory are training for a much greater risk if they loose.

 

[Gweilo]

In my sparring sessions, no gloves or headguard, I do wear a box or nut cup whatever you call it, full contact, but the power of the strikes starts low and then builds, there is no set senario, i.e you could imediately try to take someone to the ground, or stay up right for a while, on multiple attackers similar to your video, but it will build to, one may have a knife, or a Jo, or there maybe 4 or 5 attackers.
With the strength of the strikes, it is determined by the students or the amount of time they have sparred, the reason for this is, in systema we beleive as you do, as well as building your bodies strength and resistance to strikes, you also have to build the phyche, as you are aware most people give up after receiving a descent strike, or when they see their own blood, or a stronger than normal pressure on a lock or hold, In Systema this training starts in the form of massage, we place increasing amounts of pressure to parts of the body with the hands or heel and ball of the foot, for example, I would place increasing amounts of pressure to a calf muscle with my heel, the student is to use their breathwork to breathe through it, and relax the muscle, and then more pressure is applied which they have to get to the point of a relaxed muscle to remove the discomfort or pain, another method is to lay face down with a medicine ball between the floor and your intestines, then relax, but let go to a point like you was just laying on the floor. In Toronto and Moscow, in closed sessions of knife defense they use live blades, and at incredible speed, in the uk this type of thing is frowned upon, we use marker pens instead, but if you are truely going to survive, you need to know you can, yes after sparring I have gone home with bruises, black eyes etc, but I will point out students are not forced to participate at an increased intensity and strength, what I do, and a few others in systema, is we like to push our boundaries, if you make a mistake we let each other know, this type of sparring is done behind closed doors, because it can frigthen other students, I am a firm believer in, if you pussy around in training, you are going to fight like a pussy, that part of mma I do admire, but you still have the safeguards of rules and refs (albeit for good reason), your comment about people mentally breaking is bob on,, I couldnt agree more, training your mental reaction, as well as our physical reaction is vital, which was my point about the refs and rules, so for some these safe guards can help some to give up, let go, knowing the rules and the ref can intervene.
As to a video, these sessions are closed doors, so I have to ask the other participants permission to film and share, last time the answer was no, but I will ask again, failing that, if you are ever in the South West uk, pm me, you can come to a session with us, then go for a beer after, if you need accomadation I have a spare room, I am planning a 6 week holiday to the states later this year, and if in your neighbourhood, perhaps we could have a session and a beer.

 

[drop bear]

In my sparring sessions, no gloves or headguard, I do wear a box or nut cup whatever you call it, full contact, but the power of the strikes starts low and then builds, there is no set senario, i.e you could imediately try to take someone to the ground, or stay up right for a while, on multiple attackers similar to your video, but it will build to, one may have a knife, or a Jo, or there maybe 4 or 5 attackers.
With the strength of the strikes, it is determined by the students or the amount of time they have sparred, the reason for this is, in systema we beleive as you do, as well as building your bodies strength and resistance to strikes, you also have to build the phyche, as you are aware most people give up after receiving a descent strike, or when they see their own blood, or a stronger than normal pressure on a lock or hold, In Systema this training starts in the form of massage, we place increasing amounts of pressure to parts of the body with the hands or heel and ball of the foot, for example, I would place increasing amounts of pressure to a calf muscle with my heel, the student is to use their breathwork to breathe through it, and relax the muscle, and then more pressure is applied which they have to get to the point of a relaxed muscle to remove the discomfort or pain, another method is to lay face down with a medicine ball between the floor and your intestines, then relax, but let go to a point like you was just laying on the floor. In Toronto and Moscow, in closed sessions of knife defense they use live blades, and at incredible speed, in the uk this type of thing is frowned upon, we use marker pens instead, but if you are truely going to survive, you need to know you can, yes after sparring I have gone home with bruises, black eyes etc, but I will point out students are not forced to participate at an increased intensity and strength, what I do, and a few others in systema, is we like to push our boundaries, if you make a mistake we let each other know, this type of sparring is done behind closed doors, because it can frigthen other students, I am a firm believer in, if you pussy around in training, you are going to fight like a pussy, that part of mma I do admire, but you still have the safeguards of rules and refs (albeit for good reason), your comment about people mentally breaking is bob on,, I couldnt agree more, training your mental reaction, as well as our physical reaction is vital, which was my point about the refs and rules, so for some these safe guards can help some to give up, let go, knowing the rules and the ref can intervene.
As to a video, these sessions are closed doors, so I have to ask the other participants permission to film and share, last time the answer was no, but I will ask again, failing that, if you are ever in the South West uk, pm me, you can come to a session with us, then go for a beer after, if you need accomadation I have a spare room, I am planning a 6 week holiday to the states later this year, and if in your neighbourhood, perhaps we could have a session and a beer.

A video is going to be better. Bare knuckle full contact is a big claim.

 

[JP3]

On the O/P... I'd sayt hat any of the grappling arts would work well, what's being described is a strategic decision... in other words, tactically choosing in all instances to create space, gain an escape-friendly position, and get back to the standing posture... rather than continuing the ground engagement.

 

[Gweilo]

A video is going to be better. Bare knuckle full contact is a big claim.

Not a big claim at all, most of systema strikes are into muscle, joints or nerves, we do strike the head, but that is down to the individuals sparring, me I am ok with head strikes, as are some of the people I spar with, for me it is making defense as real as possible, without losing control, take one or give one, ask if the receiver is ok, yes continue.

 

[skribs]

If you have a close look at what they are doing . Unless they get completely merked with a throw by the time they have landed they are almost back on their feet.

What you are looking for technically is the fight for hands and knees position called turtle and from turtle to standing.

Bjj will instead fight for guard and then fight of their back.

As a side note. There is an idea that to enhance the concept of grappling and standing that you throw the guy and stay standing yourself.

But if you were dealing with anyone any good they will behave like that first video, stand back up and you will have basically wasted your time.

I re-quoted this one DB. I had an interesting counter-arguement from someone else on another site. First off, as it relates specifically to my question, take-down defense is a moot consideration. (Not that it's an invalid one and is definitely something in favor of Wrestling for the style I'm looking at).

The other big point is that with wrestling (similar to an issue that boxing has), you have two major issues as it relates to the escapes that are trained:

1. Many of the escapes set you up for submissions
2. A lot of the time the strategy is to get into a position where you stop the fight and get into referee position, instead of actually trying to escape.

With that said, I do agree with you that Wrestling will train more actual escapes. I also think if I took wrestling at an MMA gym, I would eliminate a lot of the problems with pure wrestling. Of course, the same could be said about BJJ, as I would assume that at an MMA gym, some of the BJJ classes will be taught assuming the person wants to strike.

Whats wrong with create or find the space, then fill it, be it on the ground, or upright?

Nothing, if you want to go for a pin or submission. Everything, if you want to get back into striking range or weapon range. The idea I have is to create a style that's not necessarily designed to stay unarmed, but which is designed to protect yourself until you can draw a weapon.

If you are asking which grappling art is the best for defending yourself the answer is the same as asking which striking art is the best for self defense: ALL OF THEM. I have been doing BJJ for over 20 years at a gym that has national wrestlers that were Judo black belts before anything. Doesn't mean I might not face a better wrestler than me so in that case I am super happy I have BJJ. It's possible that I am fighting a better Judoka than me so I am super glad I know how to wrestle. Maybe I got in a fight with a world champion BJJ player so I'm super glad that he probably has no wrestling or Judo so he won't be able to take me down at all.

Oh, and 8 years or so of Muay Thai. This idea that 1 style or art is better than another is archaic. Train everything that you can with everyone that you can.

Which is why I asked a specific question regarding an approach to a technique. "Which striking art has the best kicks" is a much different question than "which striking art is best."

In theory nobody in wrestling should ever throw someone with a double leg.

If you wanted to discuss how training would make you predictable. That would be the best example.

It is literally the first throw and the first defense everyone learns.

But elite guys still manage to use it successfully.

This is kinda like Bill Wallace talking about landing kicks. To paraphrase, it goes something like this: Everyone fighting knows all the techniques. So how do they still get hit with it? Well, here's a roundhouse kick to the ribs. He sees it, gets used to it, and then I adjust and hit the face. He sees that, gets used to it, so I hit him in the ribs again. Now he figures out how to protect his face and ribs, but that leaves his other side open and I can hook kick to that side.

I've also seen the same thing in Hapkido (I think I mentioned in another thread we were in), where one technique might be a low % technique by itself, but then I can respond to their resistance and apply a technique more likely to succeed. Change the context, that other technique is low %, and the first one becomes more successful.

In the case of this video, a lot of those double legs didn't succeed. A lot of them did get the other person off balance for him to take their back instead.

On the O/P... I'd sayt hat any of the grappling arts would work well, what's being described is a strategic decision... in other words, tactically choosing in all instances to create space, gain an escape-friendly position, and get back to the standing posture... rather than continuing the ground engagement.

It is a strategic decision I'm making now, and looking for the best way of training it.

 

[skribs]

What I advocate for self defense is mma plus. Not mma lite.

Or in this case wrestling plus.

The problem is there's only so much time you can devote to training. It's a combination of what your schedule permits, and what your body and mind can handle. Ideally I'd be training in 14 different martial arts, but unfortunately I only have the time to really devote to 2. If I were to even add in 1 art, the other two would suffer for it.

Now, I say "suffer", maybe I'd be better off, maybe it would simply be a change. But if you have 6 hours a week to devote to class, and you want to cover MMA from a self defense standpoint, then some of the MMA training has to take a back seat to cover concepts that are going to be specific to self defense.

So the comment that we train to fight multiple attackers has to come with a lot more evidence to be a credible statement.

I think there are credible and credulous methods out there. I think the video you showed is either credulous or introductory (you can't be sure which). Typically if there's a skill you haven't practiced much, then you're going to look like a fish out of water and your training partners will go easy on you so you're not completely overwhelmed.

There are some things that are definitely not good practical training. The ones where you simultaneously take out multiple attackers with intricate throws or complicated combinations are a bit iffy (although great for demonstrations). However, there are two concepts related to controlling the fight that does work*. First off, there are escapes that can work against multiple people in the right context. It is possible to break the grip of different people at the same time. I just don't think it's realistic to throw them, and it's more likely to move into the next concept: control the fight so that you're only fighting one guy at a time. Use things like:

• Pushes, shoves, and throws to create distance
• Footwork to put one guy between the others
• Traps and clinches to control one guy and put him between the others

*I put an asterisk after "work", because it's not like it's a band-aid "train these and you'll win." It's more like, "train these and you're less likely to lose." For example, if you're fighting two guys and decide to clinch one of them and pull him between you and the other, then you have to not only dominate the clinch, but dominate it to a degree that you can pay attention to the other guy and maneuver the clinch between you. It's also going to be very demanding of your stamina and endurance, and you're almost definitely going to take more shots than if you fought them together.

I think any training which is "look at this cool move I can do where I do a quick step and flick my wrists, and five guys go flying" is bad training, but good entertainment. I think any training which is "if there's two guys coming at me, how do I put myself in the best position to succeed" is good training. What you have to do then is decide where to place it in your curriculum, if at all. I personally place it later on, because as I said above: you need to be competent enough to completely dominate one person in order to control them to handle the second.

Ok. So situational awareness is tricky. Here is how to be situationally aware so as not to be eaten by a crocodile.

I'm going to go back to what @gpseymour said about there being gaps in everyone's training. Situational awareness is something to be mindful of. You've decided it's not worth training. That doesn't mean you should ridicule anyone who does train it.

 

[drop bear]

I'm going to go back to what @gpseymour said about there being gaps in everyone's training. Situational awareness is something to be mindful of. You've decided it's not worth training. That doesn't mean you should ridicule anyone who does train it.

I am kind of working back to front but situational awareness is good. It is often just trained so badly it is pointless.

 

[drop bear]

The problem is there's only so much time you can devote to training. It's a combination of what your schedule permits, and what your body and mind can handle. Ideally I'd be training in 14 different martial arts, but unfortunately I only have the time to really devote to 2. If I were to even add in 1 art, the other two would suffer for it.

In self defense wrestling covers so much basic fighting concept that you get a massive reward for your investment. If you could wrestle but never trained multiple attackers you would be better off against multiple attackers than if you trained multiple attackers but never wrestled.

This is because the basic skills you will use to obtain your objective are contained within wrestling. Which is grappling people or not being grappled. They are for some reason very hard to hold down.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I am kind of working back to front but situational awareness is good. It is often just trained so badly it is pointless.

I'd love to focus more on situational awareness. I don't really know of many good ways to train it in a dojo. I could do more with a wandering class, and there are a few drills that seem to help reduce tunnel vision under stress, but that's about the scope of it, other than some reasonable recommendations (lecture time).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In self defense wrestling covers so much basic fighting concept that you get a massive reward for your investment. If you could wrestle but never trained multiple attackers you would be better off against multiple attackers than if you trained multiple attackers but never wrestled.

This is because the basic skills you will use to obtain your objective are contained within wrestling. Which is grappling people or not being grappled. They are for some reason very hard to hold down.

Does wrestling allow for purely defensive play? This is one of the areas where Judo rules conflict with self-defense concepts - you aren't really allowed to focus on defending the grabbing, as I understand it.