How would you compare the grappling arts on their ability to escape the ground game?

Gweilo said:
Op first post, stated if going to ground, he likes to create space, so he can get to his feet or vice a versa(nothing wrong with that), and that bjj created space then fills the space (nothing wrong with that), its a stratergy that works well on the ground and in an upright stance, so why not use that, Hapkido is strongest technique wise in the upright position, so as groundwork is by his own admission a weak or unfavoured pisition, change it, he knows the theories of circular movement, he also knows the theories of non resistance, I think it was skribs (appologies if was not) stated in another post he has thought about creating a new art, so whats wrong with create space, fill space and intergrating it with some of the Hapkido theories and techniques to improve the groundwork, I for one would be inrerested in his findings, as its something I have been toying with, blending some of the techniques from prevoius arts (bujinkan, Hapkido) to the movement principles of Systema (not creating a new art per say just adapting my style), having talked about this in my Hapkido days (groundwork not a strong point of the art) and not experiencing proper grappling wrestling techniques until I started Systema, it is something I have experimented with for a while, and I think its better to adapt oneself rather than start another art.
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In my experience, BJJ’s approach works well with the circular movement and principles. It doesn’t take much adaptation for BJJ movement to fit with an Aiki art to create a blended ground approach.
 
Combat sambo mixed with BJJ and maybe ringen. And then you should probbly be set as its got a more eleborate ground game than judo has now days and has the same goals of putting someone onto the ground and submitting them.

And Combat sambo is pretty much MMA with a few diffrences. Unless you do it at a MMA school then its MMA. :P

Pretty much any grappling will help you in this regard though. ( have doubts about belt though, but thats probbly better than nothing espeically some places have a non belted version if they do belted)
 
You dont need to join an art to get access to top guys nowdays,
Fir example Fedor Emelianenko does seminar andv5 day intensive training courses open to all on Sambo and his MMA style, and I would put money on hes not the only one.
 
Gweilo said:
You dont need to join an art to get access to top guys nowdays,
Fir example Fedor Emelianenko does seminar and 5 day intensive training courses open to all on Sambo and his MMA style, and I would put money on hes not the only one.
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You do if you want to be any good.
 
The difference being, for sport, you are going against a well trained opponent, someone you are very unlikely to meet in a self defense situation like a saturday evening, outside the bar, also in sport the leaining has a cealing that is covered by the rules of the governing body, in sport you are not going to be able to tap out of someone sinking their teeth into your face, or someone ramming their thumb through your eye ball, and you can tap all you want, when someones got hold of your knackers and trying to rip them off, yes this is extreme, you can train as hard as you like, kick and punch as many bags as you like, get as many colour belts as you like, but when you work to an imposed cealing, there are gaps and flaws, now I am not claiming I am perfect (far from) , but what do grapplers do when you face 2 or 3 adversaries? How is that arm bar or Rnc going to help when his mate is kicking you in the face? Is that not the reason you call it mixed martial arts, you become good at many disciplines rather than a master of one, cover as many bases as you can, if you join bjj for example, say 5 years to become good, then take up for example Muay Thaii for 5 years, then what, another 5 years boxing maybe, IMO traing all 3 to a high level at the same time aint going to work either, far better to learn the basics of an art that help with your weakness, through intensive causes and blend that into what you are doing, spend more time on what works, rather than spending 5 years hard work, to never use 2/3 of it. Training in mma is great for fitness, and sport, yes there will be a lot that works in a self defense situation, but its not as superior as mma types beleive.
 
Gweilo said:
The difference being, for sport, you are going against a well trained opponent, someone you are very unlikely to meet in a self defense situation like a saturday evening, outside the bar, also in sport the leaining has a cealing that is covered by the rules of the governing body, in sport you are not going to be able to tap out of someone sinking their teeth into your face, or someone ramming their thumb through your eye ball, and you can tap all you want, when someones got hold of your knackers and trying to rip them off, yes this is extreme, you can train as hard as you like, kick and punch as many bags as you like, get as many colour belts as you like, but when you work to an imposed cealing, there are gaps and flaws, now I am not claiming I am perfect (far from) , but what do grapplers do when you face 2 or 3 adversaries? How is that arm bar or Rnc going to help when his mate is kicking you in the face? Is that not the reason you call it mixed martial arts, you become good at many disciplines rather than a master of one, cover as many bases as you can, if you join bjj for example, say 5 years to become good, then take up for example Muay Thaii for 5 years, then what, another 5 years boxing maybe, IMO traing all 3 to a high level at the same time aint going to work either, far better to learn the basics of an art that help with your weakness, through intensive causes and blend that into what you are doing, spend more time on what works, rather than spending 5 years hard work, to never use 2/3 of it. Training in mma is great for fitness, and sport, yes there will be a lot that works in a self defense situation, but its not as superior as mma types beleive.
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The intensity of their training - and working against people who have tested what they are using (even if you're not competing, yourself) - is the best part of the common MMA approach, IMO. A TMA school using those principles will usually develop better students than if they didn't.
 
If you are asking which grappling art is the best for defending yourself the answer is the same as asking which striking art is the best for self defense: ALL OF THEM. I have been doing BJJ for over 20 years at a gym that has national wrestlers that were Judo black belts before anything. Doesn't mean I might not face a better wrestler than me so in that case I am super happy I have BJJ. It's possible that I am fighting a better Judoka than me so I am super glad I know how to wrestle. Maybe I got in a fight with a world champion BJJ player so I'm super glad that he probably has no wrestling or Judo so he won't be able to take me down at all.

Oh, and 8 years or so of Muay Thai. This idea that 1 style or art is better than another is archaic. Train everything that you can with everyone that you can.
 
gpseymour said:
The intensity of their training - and working against people who have tested what they are using (even if you're not competing, yourself) - is the best part of the common MMA approach, IMO. A TMA school using those principles will usually develop better students than if they didn't.
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Please dont read malice in my last post, and I do not have a deep dislike of mma, I never stated not working hard, I am a beleiver of create a style that suits the individual, yes mma figthers work hard, yes they pressure test what they have learnt, they are good at what they do, I have already stated what they learn absolutley can help in a non sporting incident, but against one adversary, in a enviroment that has rules, one on one even outside of the ring or octagon, anyone taking on a competant mma fighter will need to have their wits about them, but what happens when they meet 2 or 3 people, or someone who does not play by rules. It reminds me of a story (cant remember where it came from) about a Greyhound dog, highly trained to run around in circles chasing a bit of felt that looks like a rabbit, after the greyhound is no longer profitable it gets rehomed with a family who retrain the greyhound, sit, stay, roll over, beg etc, out for a walk one day off the leash, dog sees a cat, its gone, only comes back and starts behaving once its killed the cat.
Experts will say its instinct and the prey drive and its training chasing small fury things, moral of the tale, train hard, train well, but training for the one thing only, leads to a predictable routine, thats hard to train out.
 
Gweilo said:
Please dont read malice in my last post, and I do not have a deep dislike of mma, I never stated not working hard, I am a beleiver of create a style that suits the individual, yes mma figthers work hard, yes they pressure test what they have learnt, they are good at what they do, I have already stated what they learn absolutley can help in a non sporting incident, but against one adversary, in a enviroment that has rules, one on one even outside of the ring or octagon, anyone taking on a competant mma fighter will need to have their wits about them, but what happens when they meet 2 or 3 people, or someone who does not play by rules. It reminds me of a story (cant remember where it came from) about a Greyhound dog, highly trained to run around in circles chasing a bit of felt that looks like a rabbit, after the greyhound is no longer profitable it gets rehomed with a family who retrain the greyhound, sit, stay, roll over, beg etc, out for a walk one day off the leash, dog sees a cat, its gone, only comes back and starts behaving once its killed the cat.
Experts will say its instinct and the prey drive and its training chasing small fury things, moral of the tale, train hard, train well, but training for the one thing only, leads to a predictable routine, thats hard to train out.
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So the moral of that story is a dog that is trained to chase a fake rabbit in a sport can catch and kill a real animal on the street?

Otherwise there is a whole thing about concept driven that I don't think you are getting.
 
Gweilo said:
Please dont read malice in my last post, and I do not have a deep dislike of mma, I never stated not working hard, I am a beleiver of create a style that suits the individual, yes mma figthers work hard, yes they pressure test what they have learnt, they are good at what they do, I have already stated what they learn absolutley can help in a non sporting incident, but against one adversary, in a enviroment that has rules, one on one even outside of the ring or octagon, anyone taking on a competant mma fighter will need to have their wits about them, but what happens when they meet 2 or 3 people, or someone who does not play by rules. It reminds me of a story (cant remember where it came from) about a Greyhound dog, highly trained to run around in circles chasing a bit of felt that looks like a rabbit, after the greyhound is no longer profitable it gets rehomed with a family who retrain the greyhound, sit, stay, roll over, beg etc, out for a walk one day off the leash, dog sees a cat, its gone, only comes back and starts behaving once its killed the cat.
Experts will say its instinct and the prey drive and its training chasing small fury things, moral of the tale, train hard, train well, but training for the one thing only, leads to a predictable routine, thats hard to train out.
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Good points.

A couple of thoughts. Firstly, we're all in a bit of trouble if we run into multiple attackers who actually bother to coordinate, especially if more than one of them has any skill. Of course, if you've worked on strategies and tactics that actually help (not all multiple-attacker training does - some may be worse than not being trained), you're going to have an edge over not having that training. In that same situation, the same is true of fight training (including that some "fight training" doesn't really do what it claims). Best if both the fight training and multiple training are there. That combination can be had from MMA training, too.

Here's my second point: how well it translates depends how it's trained. I like to use BJJ as an example, because most folks are at least passingly familiar with the approach and the sporting rules involved. If someone trains BJJ explicitly and entirely for IBJJF competition, they're going to have gaps (including probably some habits that aren't a good idea for self-defense) that won't exist if they also train (in class or outside class) to explore non-sporting application. I know some folks at MMA gyms do this, and they're reasonably well prepared for self-defense.

I like a blended approach. I kinda wish I'd done a bit of competition along the way, but it never interested me. I got my competitive needs met in other sports. But I think the competition would have been beneficial - and probably fun - had I gotten around to it. But there are other ways to get that testing of your abilities. That testing, IMO, is a vital part of training. I think having it at least every other generation is essential to stopping crap from creeping into an art (though competition rules can also lead to the introduction of a different kind of crap).
 
drop bear said:
So the moral of that story is a dog that is trained to chase a fake rabbit in a sport can catch and kill a real animal on the street?

Otherwise there is a whole thing about concept driven that I don't think you are getting.
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No, its train in the same things over and over do help with muscle memory, but creates bad habits, that can make you predictable.
 
Gweilo said:
No, its train in the same things over and over do help with muscle memory, but creates bad habits, that can make you predictable.
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In theory nobody in wrestling should ever throw someone with a double leg.

If you wanted to discuss how training would make you predictable. That would be the best example.

It is literally the first throw and the first defense everyone learns.

But elite guys still manage to use it successfully.
 
Mr Burrows obviously trains very hard, and has used a technique to his advantage, I think we could argue until we are blue in the face, but I will argue my point with (hope I spell her name correctly) Rhonnda Rousey, hell of an arm bar, but it was a technique she relied on too much, she reveted to what she knew she was good at, unfortunately it became predictable. I love watching mma, its great entertainment, finely tuned athletes, at the top of their GAME.
When the UFC first started in the 90's it was superb, but with the health and safety brigade, and the you cant do that crowd, it was changed, watered down, made more exceptable to the mainstream audience, the other side to the same coin is TKD and olympic TKD, it was adapted to make it more exciting, by encouraging engagement, the same will happen in Karate in the next olympics, hopefully we will see the true style v style, but even if we get that in its olympic debut, the rules will be changed, it will make karateka adapt, to make it more exciting to watch, then all of a sudden you get an ippon for a slap to the ear, and the whole olympic karate will become standardised. This is the problem for sports arts, you are dictated to by pressure from snowflake types, and PPV channel operators, it becomes purely entertainment, fighters become entertainers or actor/stuntmen types, everyone starts to beleive the hype, every one starts to be given names like larry the leg bar, and all this slowly filters down through to the every day gym, yes students become really fit (which is a good thing), yes they learn to grapple, they wear their tapout shorts to the local pool or beach or bar, put videos on youtube kicking the crap out of pads, or showing their gator grip technique, or claiming how mma is the only real true ma, every step in this chain of events is leading away from what mma was originally about, I am a mixed martial artist, but I dont do mma.
 
Gweilo said:
Mr Burrows obviously trains very hard, and has used a technique to his advantage, I think we could argue until we are blue in the face, but I will argue my point with (hope I spell her name correctly) Rhonnda Rousey, hell of an arm bar, but it was a technique she relied on too much, she reveted to what she knew she was good at, unfortunately it became predictable. I love watching mma, its great entertainment, finely tuned athletes, at the top of their GAME.
When the UFC first started in the 90's it was superb, but with the health and safety brigade, and the you cant do that crowd, it was changed, watered down, made more exceptable to the mainstream audience, the other side to the same coin is TKD and olympic TKD, it was adapted to make it more exciting, by encouraging engagement, the same will happen in Karate in the next olympics, hopefully we will see the true style v style, but even if we get that in its olympic debut, the rules will be changed, it will make karateka adapt, to make it more exciting to watch, then all of a sudden you get an ippon for a slap to the ear, and the whole olympic karate will become standardised. This is the problem for sports arts, you are dictated to by pressure from snowflake types, and PPV channel operators, it becomes purely entertainment, fighters become entertainers or actor/stuntmen types, everyone starts to beleive the hype, every one starts to be given names like larry the leg bar, and all this slowly filters down through to the every day gym, yes students become really fit (which is a good thing), yes they learn to grapple, they wear their tapout shorts to the local pool or beach or bar, put videos on youtube kicking the crap out of pads, or showing their gator grip technique, or claiming how mma is the only real true ma, every step in this chain of events is leading away from what mma was originally about, I am a mixed martial artist, but I dont do mma.
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Ok. I know guys who fought in the NHB days. And it doesn't work like you are trying to say it works.

In MMA they are not pretending. They are legitimately trying to hurt you. If you let them they will legitimately hurt you until a ref pulls you apart.

And the ref stops a fight when you can no longer defend yourself. At high level it gets stopped when you are done. Not when you are tired or unhappy or you think you have had enough. But when you look like you cannot physically fight anymore.

These are really important pieces of information.

Because then when you fight bare knuckle no holds barred. It is not like the game really changes. You still fight until you can't fight.

And if this was a self defense. You still fight until you can't fight.

So say someone can effectively grapple and sits on top of you. You don't suddenly get up because the stakes change you get up if you have the tool set to get up.
 
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