How would a high level Tai Chi martial artist do against a high level MMA?

[Tony Dismukes]

On again, you are wrong.

While I disagree with Hanzou on a number of issues, I do agree that this looks like grappling to me as well. How are you defining grappling so that what is shown in those clips would not qualify?

 

[Flying Crane]

While I disagree with Hanzou on a number of issues, I do agree that this looks like grappling to me as well. How are you defining grappling so that what is shown in those clips would not qualify?

Taiji is not a grappling system in the dedicated sense that bjj is. Push hands is one training method of Taiji, one of many methods found within Taiji training. While elements of grappling can be found within push hands, and within Taiji systems, it still is not a dedicated grappling method. Hanzou does not and cannot understand this kind of distinction. My initial comment was that the earlier video of the match was not between two dedicated grapplers. It was between two martial artists, one of whom is a dedicated grappler (or at least more so) and the other is not.

Hanzou has one tool in his tool box: a hammer. So to him everything looks like a nail and he tries to force everything to be the same thing. He cannot recognize nor understand that there are differences.

 

[Tez3]

Taiji is not a grappling system in the dedicated sense that bjj is. Push hands is one training method of Taiji, one of many methods found within Taiji training. While elements of grappling can be found within push hands, and within Taiji systems, it still is not a dedicated grappling method. Hanzou does not and cannot understand this kind of distinction. My initial comment was that the earlier video of the match was not between two dedicated grapplers. It was between two martial artists, one of whom is a dedicated grappler (or at least more so) and the other is not.

Hanzou has one tool in his tool box: a hammer. So to him everything looks like a nail and he tries to force everything to be the same thing. He cannot recognize nor understand that there are differences.

I find threads less frustrating with Hanzou on ignore for the very reasons you put here, I recommend it.
You can only explain things so many times until it becomes insulting that someone won't listen.

 

[Flying Crane]

I find threads less frustrating with Hanzou on ignore for the very reasons you put here, I recommend it.
You can only explain things so many times until it becomes insulting that someone won't listen.

True. I am willing to explain it to Tony, however.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Taiji is not a grappling system in the dedicated sense that bjj is. Push hands is one training method of Taiji, one of many methods found within Taiji training. While elements of grappling can be found within push hands, and within Taiji systems, it still is not a dedicated grappling method. Hanzou does not and cannot understand this kind of distinction. My initial comment was that the earlier video of the match was not between two dedicated grapplers. It was between two martial artists, one of whom is a dedicated grappler (or at least more so) and the other is not.

Hanzou has one tool in his tool box: a hammer. So to him everything looks like a nail and he tries to force everything to be the same thing. He cannot recognize nor understand that there are differences.

I get that Tai Chi is not a pure grappling system. Push hands does feel to me very much to be a grappling exercise. (A specialized exercise for developing certain aspects of grappling skill, not a comprehensive grappling system.)

 

[Flying Crane]

I get that Tai Chi is not a pure grappling system. Push hands does feel to me very much to be a grappling exercise. (A specialized exercise for developing certain aspects of grappling skill, not a comprehensive grappling system.)

Well, push hands is not fighting. It is a training exercise meant to help the participants develop their root and their ability to perceive and control their training partner's center and balance. It is a training drill, not a competition. At least that is what it was originally meant to be.

The problem is, people want to turn everything into a competition, and push hands translates very poorly into that. When used as a competition, it breaks down and turns into a shoving match, more than anything else. Genuine push hands is not a shoving match. When people approach it as a competition, it changes the whole thing and nobody benefits for it because it has been twisted into something it was never meant to be.

That is the same thing that happens with kata competition. Kata was never meant to be a competition. Nobody was ever meant to see it. It was simply a training method, not meant to be performance art. But when turned into competition, it becomes little more than performance art. It's a bit like building a house and then wanting to show everyone your hammer and drill and saw. Or wanting to make a competition out of pounding nails into a board. That's pointless and not what the exercise was ever meant for.

So when you see push hands competition, you see a perversion of push hands, and it resembles a shoving match and poor grappling. But hey, the judges need SOMETHING to use as a basis for determining a winner, in something that was only meant to be a cooperative two-person drill and not a winner/loser engagement.

 

[Flying Crane]

I get that Tai Chi is not a pure grappling system. Push hands does feel to me very much to be a grappling exercise. (A specialized exercise for developing certain aspects of grappling skill, not a comprehensive grappling system.)

And, my comments also stem from an earlier post where Hanzou tried to label the Chen Taiji guy as a grappling specialist. Whether you see push hands competition as legit or not, or you see it as a grappling exercise, a Taiji person is still not a grappling specialist, definitely not in the way a bjj guy is.

 

[Flying Crane]

Actually he would be considered a grappling specialist due to the nature of the sport. Competitive Tuisho looks very similar to sumo wrestling, which is also a form of grappling.

Clearly it isn't a complete system of grappling in of itself, but merely a grappling subset of a martial art.

Here is where he said it.

 

[Hanzou]

I would label any professional athlete who participates in sport grappling to be a "grappling specialist". That doesn't make my viewpoint wrong simply because Flying Crane doesn't agree with the purpose behind the grappling sport in question.

 

[drop bear]

I would label any professional athlete who participates in sport grappling to be a "grappling specialist". That doesn't make my viewpoint wrong simply because Flying Crane doesn't agree with the purpose behind the grappling sport in question.

Where as you should have said he was a grappling subset specialist.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Well, push hands is not fighting. It is a training exercise meant to help the participants develop their root and their ability to perceive and control their training partner's center and balance. It is a training drill, not a competition. At least that is what it was originally meant to be.

We are not talking about skill "development" but skill "testing" here.

If the Taiji system uses push hands as "skill development" process then what will be the Taiji system "skill testing" process? When you "test" your skill against people from other systems, you will need "sport" format no matter you like it or not. Without proper "testing" in "sport", how will you be able to know that your skill will work against non-cooperative opponents from other systems?

A good "single leg" is a skill that can be used to take down boxers, MT guys, BJJ guys, CMA guys, and ...

A good "Taiji skill" is a skill that can be used to deal with boxers, MT guys, BJJ guys, CMA guys, and ... . So where and how you are going to test it if you don't use the "sport" format?

 

[Tez3]

We are not talking about skill "development" but skill "testing" here.

If the Taiji system uses push hands as "skill development" process then what will be the Taiji system "skill testing" process? When you "test" your skill against people from other systems, you will need "sport" format no matter you like it or not. Without proper "testing" in "sport", how will you be able to know that your skill will work against non-cooperative opponents from other systems?

A good "single leg" is a skill that can be used to take down boxers, MT guys, BJJ guys, CMA guys, and ...

A good "Taiji skill" is a skill that can be used to deal with boxers, MT guys, BJJ guys, CMA guys, and ... . So where and how you are going to test it if you don't use the "sport" format?

You can test things perfectly well without making it into a competition, you train, it really is as simple as that. You train, then you train some more then some more.
Once you start turning things into a competition it changes the form of it, you have to have rules, then you have to have a scoring system then...it goes on and on so it becomes not what it was to start with. people become competitive, they start training ways to win the competition and not test the technique. It defeats the object of the exercise. The techniques change to become 'sports' techniques.
I train MMA to compete, to enjoy the fight to win not to test any self defence techniques and you will find that is true of all competitors. I used to fight in full contact karate comp to win, to compete, I never trained once and thought to myself I would 'test' any technique. In fact it was the opposite we trained techniques we knew would win us fights, things already tried and tested, one didn't try new things out in a fight, far too much of a risk! So no one doesn't need a 'sports' format to test anything at all.

 

[drop bear]

You can test things perfectly well without making it into a competition, you train, it really is as simple as that. You train, then you train some more then some more.
Once you start turning things into a competition it changes the form of it, you have to have rules, then you have to have a scoring system then...it goes on and on so it becomes not what it was to start with. people become competitive, they start training ways to win the competition and not test the technique. It defeats the object of the exercise. The techniques change to become 'sports' techniques.
I train MMA to compete, to enjoy the fight to win not to test any self defence techniques and you will find that is true of all competitors. I used to fight in full contact karate comp to win, to compete, I never trained once and thought to myself I would 'test' any technique. In fact it was the opposite we trained techniques we knew would win us fights, things already tried and tested, one didn't try new things out in a fight, far too much of a risk! So no one doesn't need a 'sports' format to test anything at all.

Rather than sport the term alive or resisted training is applicable here. Competition is alive/resisted but not all the options out there.

Otherwise I don't think you can speak for what is true of all competitors.

 

[drop bear]

We are not talking about skill "development" but skill "testing" here.

If the Taiji system uses push hands as "skill development" process then what will be the Taiji system "skill testing" process? When you "test" your skill against people from other systems, you will need "sport" format no matter you like it or not. Without proper "testing" in "sport", how will you be able to know that your skill will work against non-cooperative opponents from other systems?

A good "single leg" is a skill that can be used to take down boxers, MT guys, BJJ guys, CMA guys, and ...

A good "Taiji skill" is a skill that can be used to deal with boxers, MT guys, BJJ guys, CMA guys, and ... . So where and how you are going to test it if you don't use the "sport" format?

Which is why we are using a sport guy as the example of quality taiji in the first place.

 

[drop bear]

Regarding takedown defence and holes in games. If the other guy is really good it doesn't count as a hole in your game. You can be doing everything right and still get owned.

 

[Flying Crane]

I would label any professional athlete who participates in sport grappling to be a "grappling specialist". That doesn't make my viewpoint wrong simply because Flying Crane doesn't agree with the purpose behind the grappling sport in question.

It actually does make your viewpoint wrong. You don't even know what you are looking at.

 

[Flying Crane]

We are not talking about skill "development" but skill "testing" here.

If the Taiji system uses push hands as "skill development" process then what will be the Taiji system "skill testing" process? When you "test" your skill against people from other systems, you will need "sport" format no matter you like it or not. Without proper "testing" in "sport", how will you be able to know that your skill will work against non-cooperative opponents from other systems?

A good "single leg" is a skill that can be used to take down boxers, MT guys, BJJ guys, CMA guys, and ...

A good "Taiji skill" is a skill that can be used to deal with boxers, MT guys, BJJ guys, CMA guys, and ... . So where and how you are going to test it if you don't use the "sport" format?

Nope.

 

[Tez3]

Rather than sport the term alive or resisted training is applicable here. Competition is alive/resisted but not all the options out there.

Otherwise I don't think you can speak for what is true of all competitors.

The term 'sport' that came from Kung Fu Wang who is saying that the only way to test anything is by taking part in competitions. It's not a good way to test self defence techniques, I'd agree that 'alive' or resisted training is by far a better way.

 

[drop bear]

The term 'sport' that came from Kung Fu Wang who is saying that the only way to test anything is by taking part in competitions. It's not a good way to test self defence techniques, I'd agree that 'alive' or resisted training is by far a better way.

Sometimes I think you need to read past what a person says and try to understand what a person means.

You did notice all the quotations? So when he says "sports format" it is designed to be read in a fairly liberal context.

 

[Flying Crane]

Sometimes I think you need to read past what a person says and try to understand what a person means.

You did notice all the quotations? So when he says "sports format" it is designed to be read in a fairly liberal context.

Kung fu wang's post was full of nonsense. Tez got it right.