How useful are the teaching methods of some arts???

[Xue Sheng]

Greetings - If you read this thread from the top, I think we have come full circle.
Let me end by asking a few questions that were asked of me,
"of all you know, how much do you think you will master ?,
of all you master how much do you think you can teach someone else ?"
Dave Rapp sensei

Romney ^..^

I won't master anything and if someone claims they are a master my best advice is to run as far and as fast from them as you can and go find a real teacher.

If they claim mastery and believe they are a master then learning stops.

 

[geezer]

I won't master anything and if someone claims they are a master my best advice is to run as far and as fast from them as you can and go find a real teacher.

If they claim mastery and believe they are a master then learning stops.

Interesting. I'd say their learning stops and yours will be stifled. My former Wing Tsun sifu claimed to be a "Grandmaster". Certainly, his technique was at a very high level. But, what a pain to try and learn from him! As you can imagine, any living human who assumes such a title has a bit of an ego. Or is very concerned with buillding a business. Or both.

My current instructor holds "Master" rank and is quite skilled. Though justly proud of his accomplishments, he is also humble and can laugh at himself. He frequently points out that there are many others out there who are better than he is. And, he has taught me more than the "Grandmaster" did.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Interesting. I'd say their learning stops and yours will be stifled. My former Wing Tsun sifu claimed to be a "Grandmaster". Certainly, his technique was at a very high level. But, what a pain to try and learn from him! As you can imagine, any living human who assumes such a title has a bit of an ego. Or is very concerned with buillding a business. Or both.

My current instructor holds "Master" rank and is quite skilled. Though justly proud of his accomplishments, he is also humble and can laugh at himself. He frequently points out that there are many others out there who are better than he is. And, he has taught me more than the "Grandmaster" did.

Exactly, my taiji sifu has been doing Yang taiji and only Yang Taiji for over 50 years and he absolutely will not let anyone call him Grandmaster. You can call him sifu or by his first name that's it. A couple of students wanted to start calling him grand master a few months ago and he told them to stop. After that they still called him grandmaster a few times and every time he told them to stop calling him that. They finally stopped when he said the only grandmasters he knows are old dead guys.

And you can still see how much he still enjoys just doing the long form and how much he would love to teach it. The only problem with taiji these days is no one wants to learn it.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I won't master anything and if someone claims they are a master my best advice is to run as far and as fast from them as you can and go find a real teacher.

If they claim mastery and believe they are a master then learning stops.

A lot depends upon how the action, to master, is meant. Many people se the term to mean simply attaining proficiency. So to say, 'I have mastered performing a rear leg roundhouse kick, now I am ready to learn a leading leg roundhouse kick', generally means that the student is comfortable with the technique. So from that standpoint, we all master things. From there, we then hone the skill.

Regarding someone who calls themselves a master, if they hold the rank of master through an organization, has taken the instructors class or classes, if any, then they have as much right to call themselves 'Master so and so' as a surgeon has to call themselves 'Doctor so and so.'

Now if the guy is being a blowhard and making outrageous claims, like, 'I know everything there is to know about the martial arts and have mastered every technique of every martial art, plus secret sword numbers one through thirteen, then its a good bet you've got a fake.

But for someone to say, 'I am a (insert art) master and have the credential to hold the title (a 5th dan KKW practitioner is considered a master in the org.), I don't see how that makes them by default not-a-real-teacher? And why does it by default mean that they don't believe that they have anything more to learn? And if this is not the scenario that you're thinking of then my apologies.

Daniel

 

[Xue Sheng]

A lot depends upon how the action, to master, is meant. Many people se the term to mean simply attaining proficiency. So to say, 'I have mastered performing a rear leg roundhouse kick, now I am ready to learn a leading leg roundhouse kick', generally means that the student is comfortable with the technique. So from that standpoint, we all master things. From there, we then hone the skill.

Regarding someone who calls themselves a master, if they hold the rank of master through an organization, has taken the instructors class or classes, if any, then they have as much right to call themselves 'Master so and so' as a surgeon has to call themselves 'Doctor so and so.'

Now if the guy is being a blowhard and making outrageous claims, like, 'I know everything there is to know about the martial arts and have mastered every technique of every martial art, plus secret sword numbers one through thirteen, then its a good bet you've got a fake.

But for someone to say, 'I am a (insert art) master and have the credential to hold the title (a 5th dan KKW practitioner is considered a master in the org.), I don't see how that makes them by default not-a-real-teacher? And why does it by default mean that they don't believe that they have anything more to learn? And if this is not the scenario that you're thinking of then my apologies.

Daniel

Sorry, let me clarify

Master is a title and if some one has earned that title and wished to use it that is their choice. However I could go into what authority do some organizations really have to call someone a master since in some (not all) cases they change the criteria to get more people interested in order to make more money. But that is the stuff of another post.

But if they take the title to seriously (this goes for MDs too) or actually believe they now are a master therefore they know it all (that goes BIG time for MDs) then they are no longer interested in being a teacher they are more interested in the title and being a master and if you want to learn the system you need to go find a real teacher. Meaning someone who is more interested in teaching what he/she knows than using a title to prove to all that they know it all because they are a master (and don’t get me going on Grandmaster )

However in the case of an MD they would be more interested in being called a doctor than actually doing the work of a doctor and they then can become potentially dangerous to the patient.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

But if they take the title to seriously (this goes for MDs too) or actually believe they now are a master therefore they know it all (that goes BIG time for MDs) then they are no longer interested in being a teacher they are more interested in the title and being a master and if you want to learn the system you need to go find a real teacher. Meaning someone who is more interested in teaching what he/she knows than using a title to prove to all that they know it all because they are a master (and don’t get me going on Grandmaster )

Generally, most orgs that I am familiar with (probably very few in the grand scheme of things) consider one a 'master' when they've reached a rank where they realisically know and can teach the entire curricula of the style or system, which doesn't sound nearly as grandios as the term, 'master' makes it sound. I agree with you 200% regarding the rank/title chasers.

As far as grandmasters go, the title is so commonplace now that it hardly holds any real meaning. Personally, I think that the title should be reserved for:

1) School owners who have multiple masters teaching at their school, though i think that the title of headmaster would be more appropriate. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, this is what the term, "kwan jang" actually means; head of school.

or

2) School owners who own more than one school with a master or masters running each location. In this sense, the grandmaster is essentially a general manager, which incidentaly has the same initials. Personally, I think that unless the owner of two or more schools has developed his or her own style, system, or established their own independent org (see example 3), then they should simply be the school owner, master such and such. If they own four schools, all doing, say IKF kendo, under the IKF, then they are simply a master who is also an administrator. Perhaps the title of 'Dean' might be more appropriate?

or

3) This is really the most appropriate use: the head of a style or organization that presides over and provides direction to ... well.... multiple masters.

In any case, most of the words that get translated as, 'master' either directly translate to, or would be more appropriately translated as, teacher.

Daniel

 

[Xue Sheng]

Generally, most orgs that I am familiar with (probably very few in the grand scheme of things) consider one a 'master' when they've reached a rank where they realisically know and can teach the entire curricula of the style or system, which doesn't sound nearly as grandios as the term, 'master' makes it sound. I agree with you 200% regarding the rank/title chasers.

As far as grandmasters go, the title is so commonplace now that it hardly holds any real meaning. Personally, I think that the title should be reserved for:

1) School owners who have multiple masters teaching at their school, though i think that the title of headmaster would be more appropriate. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, this is what the term, "kwan jang" actually means; head of school.

or

2) School owners who own more than one school with a master or masters running each location. In this sense, the grandmaster is essentially a general manager, which incidentaly has the same initials. Personally, I think that unless the owner of two or more schools has developed his or her own style, system, or established their own independent org (see example 3), then they should simply be the school owner, master such and such. If they own four schools, all doing, say IKF kendo, under the IKF, then they are simply a master who is also an administrator. Perhaps the title of 'Dean' might be more appropriate?

or

3) This is really the most appropriate use: the head of a style or organization that presides over and provides direction to ... well.... multiple masters.

In any case, most of the words that get translated as, 'master' either directly translate to, or would be more appropriately translated as, teacher.

Daniel

Thanks, I'm a CMA guy so I know little about organizations. I only know what I have read. :asian:

But being a TCMA guy in CMA the term many use for grandmaster in the west (Sigung) translates to grandfather teacher or your teacher’s teacher. And the English use of Grandmaster tends to be reserved for westerners and, at least in North China, it is not used at all by any living teacher in Chinese. You can go to Websites of a Chinese sifu from the North and the English version might have Grandmaster but the Chinese version will not, you will only see sifu (teacher). Basically if you are Chinese or considered a serious CMA student and go to China and call a sifu a grandmaster (Dashi [da-shr]) you are either being sarcastic and telling him he knows nothing and/or you are looking for a fight.

The title tends to be reserved for past martial arts teachers. Meaning they are dead. That is in the North and that is what it use to be like in the South when my sifu was training but I have no idea what it is like in the south today. Basically it is ok for me to refer to Tung Ying Chieh as Tung Sigung or Tung Dashi but if I were to go to China and get excepted as a student of Chen Xiaoxing and if I was passable in Chines and I called him Chen Sigung he would look at me like I’m an idiot anad if I called him Chen Dashi he may just kick my butt.

But like I said this is stuff of another post.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Honestly, I don't recall even hearing the term 'Grandmaster' until fairly recently. Jhoon Rhee was probably the only one outside of this decade that I can think of who may have been referred to as Grandmaster at any of the places that I had studied. And in addressing him (its been over thirty years), I don't recall addressing him in any way other than Master Rhee. Outside of class, we referred to him as simply, 'Jhoon Rhee' because his very name was iconic in the area. Saying Jhoon Rhee was like saying Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris, or the Fonz; he was simply that cool.

The first time that can think of that I have heard the term was a several years ago when a friend referred to his master as Grandmaster. He still attends the same school, which offers taekwondo and (I think hapkido), and then tai chi, which is what my friend takes. When I got back into MA after an absense, it seems like everyone with a minimal dojo is a 9th dan grandmaster. My own GM is the first grandmaster who's school I have trained in aside from Jhoon Rhee, but that was when I was a kid. Back when I started off, anything over fourth or fifth dan was rare.

Daniel

 

[Xue Sheng]

Honestly, I don't recall even hearing the term 'Grandmaster' until fairly recently. Jhoon Rhee was probably the only one outside of this decade that I can think of who may have been referred to as Grandmaster at any of the places that I had studied. And in addressing him (its been over thirty years), I don't recall addressing him in any way other than Master Rhee. Outside of class, we referred to him as simply, 'Jhoon Rhee' because his very name was iconic in the area. Saying Jhoon Rhee was like saying Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris, or the Fonz; he was simply that cool.

The first time that can think of that I have heard the term was a several years ago when a friend referred to his master as Grandmaster. He still attends the same school, which offers taekwondo and (I think hapkido), and then tai chi, which is what my friend takes. When I got back into MA after an absense, it seems like everyone with a minimal dojo is a 9th dan grandmaster. My own GM is the first grandmaster who's school I have trained in aside from Jhoon Rhee, but that was when I was a kid. Back when I started off, anything over fourth or fifth dan was rare.

Daniel

I have no idea what the term Grandmaster means to a Korean MAist or a Japanese one for that matter but I too have noticed that there seem to be an awful lot of Grandmasters these days.


As to a Taiji Grandmaster.... to me that is just plain silly... They call Chen Xiaowang, Chen Xiaoxing, Chen Zhenglei, Chen Yu grandmasters here in the US but in China they are just high level teachers aka Sifu. But sadly there are some rather good CMA teachers in the US that absolutely insist on being called Grandmaster here and to me that is rather sad and simply salesmanship.

Every time I here the term applied to CMA I hear what my Sifu said... Grandmasters are old dead guys.

I just realized I never asked my Sanda sifu (from China) what he thought of the term. Next time I see him I will ask him. All I do know is that there is a local sifu from China (was my first sifu actually) that calls himself a grandmaster now, my Sanda sifu calls him a flower fist (in Chinese) which meant there was no mistaking what he was saying and there was not even any further argument after that.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Just to clarify, the gentleman I was referring to is a Korean GM who happens to instruct tai chi. He falls into my 'scenario one' as a school owner who employs masters in his location.

I don't believe that the term grandmaster is used in the Japanese arts either, unless like our kendo school being own by a Korean GM. Japanese arts have their own titles, such as shihan, kyoshi and hanshi. Such titles are independent of the individual's status as a school owner and are usually not translated into english: those who receive such titles are refered to with the Japanese honorific and their name, such as, "Kyoshi Jason Frank." Those who hold the honorific of Hansh (teacher of teachers) I have never heard of substituting the term 'grandmaster.'

Also, to my knowledge, JMAs tend to not have dan grades above eighth as often or at all, depending upon the art, though I admit that my JMA knowledge is not as strong as my KMA knowledge (for obvious reasons).

Daniel

 

[geezer]

I have no idea what the term Grandmaster means to a Korean MAist or a Japanese one for that matter but I too have noticed that there seem to be an awful lot of Grandmasters these days .

Yep, there sure are a lot of GMs or "Grandmasters" around now. Some of the older ones have had to promote themselves to GGM or "Great-Grandmaster" just to keep above the fray. That means we must now speak of the true luminaries of the arts, such as those whose portraits appear on the home page of this forum, as GGGMS!?! As a high school teacher, I guess it's just another aspect of the phenomenon of "grade inflation" in our entitlement society. Heck, whatever you call it, I'd be satisfied with being, honestly good at what I do.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Yep, there sure are a lot of GMs or "Grandmasters" around now. Some of the older ones have had to promote themselves to GGM or "Great-Grandmaster" just to keep above the fray. That means we must now speak of the true luminaries of the arts, such as those whose portraits appear on the home page of this forum, as GGGMS!?! As a high school teacher, I guess it's just another aspect of the phenomenon of "grade inflation" in our entitlement society. Heck, whatever you call it, I'd be satisfied with being, honestly good at what I do.

I'm waiting for the titles Uber Grandmaster or better yet Grand Ultimate Grandmaster (taijidashi) to appear next

And I am with you, I'd be satisfied with being, honestly good at what I do.

 

[wolfeyes2323]

Greetings - I am surprised that these questions were actually answered,
they were intended to be subjective and introspective .

Since others have taken the time to add perspective I will try as well.
I do believe that with time and practice we will master certain aspects of
our training. This mastery to me has nothing to do with a title,
or rank designation, and I did not intend to open the rank can of worms.

These questions when asked of me, caused me to re-evaluate what I was
Teaching and how I was going about it, There are many good teachers in
the arts, and like many others I count my self fortunate in having been
exposed to quality teachers and training. I am the current owner and
proprietor of a school started in 1962 by a Marine recruiter,
I am Not the ranking teacher,nor senior practitioner.
I do the majority of teaching in the school, but my students have the
advantage of exposure to my seniors , who I actually rely upon as a gage
of my general teaching ability. No one in the dojo has a title other than sensei,
and some have been training for 45+ years .

I also have a connection to different schools and traditions ,
through a network of martial arts acquaintances, and
my students are again fortunate to be exposed to teachers
whom I would consider to be Masters , although they do not personally
use the title (MASTER) and this is not how they wish to be addressed,
when spoken to.

I do think that I have much to offer my students that they may not
Get from others, just as others offer that which I can not give,
By exposing my students to these different influences, I believe
That it allows them to develop their individual art and understanding.
They are all different then me, as I am different from my teachers,
But we have all learned the same curriculums, and share a common
Knowledge base.

My question for myself was , what is my specialty, what do I offer ,
(what have I mastered), that complements the knowledge of
Others, whom my students are also exposed to, and , How good
am I at teaching this. Can I get these teaching across to my students
without necessitating that their art be just like mine,
(how much can I Teach to others).

My students can learn to strike and learn techniques from
any teacher in the school, and many teachers in the area,
but there are somethings that I can teach which will not be
emphasized or taught elsewhere or by most others, these are the
things that I focus on when teaching students individually.

Working with students individually does allow me to be selective
about what I teach and to whom, One teaching does not fit all,
Nor IMO should it.
Romney^..^

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Greetings - I am surprised that these questions were actually answered,
they were intended to be subjective and introspective.

I find that on internet discussion boards, nothing goes unanswered. Which is good, in my opinion. I've said things in posts that were intended as merely minor comments or analogies that others have taken and expounded upon, sometimes even making a new thread out of it. In such instances, I get points of view that I may never have thought of otherwise.

I do believe that with time and practice we will master certain aspects of
our training. This mastery to me has nothing to do with a title,
or rank designation, and I did not intend to open the rank can of worms.

I agree and look at it in the same way that you do. Rank and title are merely a credential.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I'm waiting for the titles Uber Grandmaster or better yet Grand Ultimate Grandmaster (taijidashi) to appear next

Some KMAs already beat you to it, in concept at least, with the title, 'Supreme Grandmaster.' I think there may even be 'supreme great grandmaster' but I'm not sure.

I'm waiting for the taekwondo school that shares space with a coffee shoppe to be owned by a "Supremo Venti Grande Master."

Daniel

 

[Xue Sheng]

Some KMAs already beat you to it, in concept at least, with the title, 'Supreme Grandmaster.' I think there may even be 'supreme great grandmaster' but I'm not sure.

I'm waiting for the taekwondo school that shares space with a coffee shoppe to be owned by a "Supremo Venti Grande Master."

Daniel

So I guess it is not so bad that I want to be called Grand Exalted Lord high omnipotent ruler of all I survey Grandmaster and evil wizard of Xuefu after all :mst:

 

[shihansmurf]

A couple more dan grades and I'll move up to the red hat and claim the ultimate title....

Papa Smurf!!



Mark

Sorry, I know I said I was stepping out of this thread but I couldn't resist.

 

[jks9199]

In my style, we keep things simple. Our "grandmaster" is simply called the Chief Instructor. Several people have been selected by him as "Masters" of particular specialties, with the responsibility to share that knowledge. Any black belt may be addressed as "master" but most of us avoid that without a reason...