Hi Alex,

I'm going to ask something a little direct hereā€¦ what makes you believe you're even in a position to discuss (in an informed fashion) traditional martial arts practice, benefits, reasons, purposes, or anything similar? Most particularly, how are you in a position to "help (members) understand traditional martial arts in more depth"?

What I'm asking is what your background is that enables you to do as you offerā€¦ as I see nothing that comes close, as well as a number of issues just in your initial post.
Well, I am not Alex, so I cannot answer your question. However, based on his initial post, this is the main page for the style(s) that he practices Oom Yung Doe . It contains 8 different 'TMAs', so my assumption is that this is his experience, although I am sure he will correct me if he has crosstrained/researched outside of the organization as well.
 
Well, I am not Alex, so I cannot answer your question. However, based on his initial post, this is the main page for the style(s) that he practices Oom Yung Doe . It contains 8 different 'TMAs', so my assumption is that this is his experience, although I am sure he will correct me if he has crosstrained/researched outside of the organization as well.
I kind of suspect that's what Chris was getting at. Oom Yung Doe is a modern eclectic art. Its founder claims to cover 8 different arts as part of the curriculum, but it's not certain exactly what his background is in those arts. From the videos I've watched on the official website, it appears that these arts (at least the ones I have some knowledge of) have been changed significantly from their traditional forms.

None of this makes it necessarily a bad art. Many of my favorite martial arts are modern eclectic systems. However, I note that the official website goes on quite a bit about how the forms of Oom Yung Doe are centuries old and how "fabricated" movement (i.e. forms and movements made up in the modern day and systems put together from different arts) are no good. Given that Oom Yung Doe is a modern art created by John Kim based on 8 unrelated martial arts from 3 different countries, this seems somewhat hypocritical. It also indicates that the ideas taught in that system regarding what is "traditional" are probably going to seem rather fishy to someone like Chris who is a stickler for accurate history.

In addition, both the personal biography and the general martial arts history on the official website seem pretty bogus, which is just like waving a red flag in front of a bull for someone like Chris. MartialTalk doesn't allow fraud busting, so I'm not going to really get into that. Suffice it to say that even though Mr. Kim might be an excellent martial artist and Oom Yung Doe might be a fine martial art, the history being taught is not very historical and the forms do not appear to be very traditional.
 
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I kind of suspect that's what Chris was getting at. Oom Yung Doe is a modern eclectic art. Its founder claims to cover 8 different arts as part of the curriculum, but it's not certain exactly what his background is in those arts. From the videos I've watched on the official website, it appears that these arts (at least the ones I have some knowledge of) have been changed significantly from their traditional forms.
I gathered this, but as I don't have experience in all 8 of the arts, I can't say much or say whether it is a bad or good thing. THe only thing I can definitively state is their use of the nunchuk (the only weapon video I looked at) is very different than how I learned, but that doesn't mean much. I also wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt for all those who hadn't seen the website, considering Shaolin Kempo is also badmouthed for being an eclectic system.

None of this makes it necessarily a bad art. Many of my favorite martial arts are modern eclectic systems. However, I note that the official website goes on quite a bit about how the forms of Oom Yung Doe are centuries old and how "fabricated" movement (i.e. forms and movements made up in the modern day and systems put together from different arts) are no good. Given that Oom Yung Doe is a modern art created by John Kim based on 8 unrelated martial arts from 3 different countries, this seems somewhat hypocritical. It also indicates that the ideas taught in that system regarding what is "traditional" are probably going to seem rather fishy to someone like Chris who is a stickler for accurate history.
I didn't see the claim that their forms are centuries old originally. As for how the arts are related and combined together, I would need to talk to someone about how they can be combined. The two possibilities I see that would make the art legitimate (to me) are either that they all have some underlying principle I do not know that the art focuses around, or that the art has taken training techniques from each, found ways that the different arts compliment each other and learned to incorporate them. If it's the first option, I'm very interested in what might be the common principal they teach from each art. If the second, it's very impressive that they managed to do this, as the only two arts that I know of that have done it well are Shaolin Kempo and JKD (both of which plenty of people will disagree on), so it would be interesting to hear it from anothers perspective.

Also, there's a very small possibility chris somehow missed the comment about the art's name, and so was asking without knowing the art Alex studies, but I have doubts that is the case.
 
Ive never heard of that style. Nonetheless, nice to meet you!
 
There is nothing wrong with meditation, in the Christian world; because, even when you are driving, you meditate on the road. However, the breathing exercises can be scary. In it's extreme, you are actually sticking your tongue, up into the back of your nose to boost your prana. While, yes, it is important to see yourself doing something in your head, before you start any given activity, a Western approach, is more OJT. One more thing, when you think about clearing your mind, you haven't done anything at all, other than filling your head with thoughts of clearing your mind. :)
 
Ahh, I remember Master Kim now. Chung Moo Doe. Wish I hadn't remembered.

But that in no way is any reflection on anyone now.
 
Hey sorry guys. I haven't checked this in a few days.

I probably won't be able to reply to all of that in one message but I'll start and then feel free to jump in. As long as you are legitimately inquisitive and not bashing I will do my best to answer fully and completely.

Also Chris, I am OK with direct. I prefer it. It makes it easier to address things. As far as my position to be able to educate people, I base that purely on my skill and ability and the experiences/testimonials of my students, who's ages range from 5-77 (showing an understanding of how to teach based on age, condition, and body type). In truth what else is there really? What your lineage is, who you learned from, how long you have been training, certificates, etc do not necessarily equate to you yourself being a good teacher or practitioner. If you can't show what you've developed and you can't teach your students properly everything else, while nice, doesn't equate to much. That's why I try to pretty consistently put out videos, student testimonials, etc.

As for training being 8 styles as 1 the important thing to understand is that it's not constantly trying to learn thousands upon thousands of techniques and curricula, but more importantly understanding what the main principles are in each art, and more importantly knowing what the key foundation techniques are. For example, in aikido we teach foundation movements that involve weighted equipment, herbs, and different types of stretches. That's how we are able to demonstrate the wrist and finger push up techniques, and why people often fail at being able to apply joint locks to higher level instructors, because of the condition of the joints, ligaments, etc. Earnestly practicing to be able apply these techniques is still paramount, but can be achieved in a phenomenally shorter amount of time once the physical/mental foundation is set. Even more importantly, is the longevity and quality of life that is realized through absorbing the foundation.

If that sounds obscure to you please also look deeper into Shaolin training. While the training is pretty different in method, the principles are very similar in that it is a method to develop physically, mentally, and spiritually.

To close, I have deep respect for anyone who pursues a traditional martial art, especially in the pursuit of self improvement. As I will be open to your perspectives and stances on subjects I ask that you also be open to mine. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts. -Alex
 
Hey Alex welcome MT,,, little advise to you,, sit down relax and read some threads, get familiar with the participants of the forum. A good amount of people here have been training a long time. Your thread post and back round in your style is sure to get you a quick sink or swim reception.
 
Hi Alex,

I'm going to ask something a little direct hereā€¦ what makes you believe you're even in a position to discuss (in an informed fashion) traditional martial arts practice, benefits, reasons, purposes, or anything similar? Most particularly, how are you in a position to "help (members) understand traditional martial arts in more depth"?

What I'm asking is what your background is that enables you to do as you offerā€¦ as I see nothing that comes close, as well as a number of issues just in your initial post.

Also Chris, I am OK with direct. I prefer it. It makes it easier to address things. As far as my position to be able to educate people, I base that purely on my skill and ability and the experiences/testimonials of my students, who's ages range from 5-77 (showing an understanding of how to teach based on age, condition, and body type). In truth what else is there really? What your lineage is, who you learned from, how long you have been training, certificates, etc do not necessarily equate to you yourself being a good teacher or practitioner. If you can't show what you've developed and you can't teach your students properly everything else, while nice, doesn't equate to much.

Hi Alex. I won't presume to speak for Chris, but I believe what he is asking about is not your teaching skills. You may be an excellent instructor and an skilled martial artist. None of us has seen you teach, so we're not in a position to comment on that. I believe what he is questioning is your knowledge of traditional martial arts practice. If you search the forums, you'll see that we've had a few lively discussions as to what exactly constitutes traditional martial arts practice. Chris is one of those who has done quite a bit of research into martial histories and traditions, especially of the Japanese arts, and he can get prickly when those are misrepresented.
 
Hey Alex welcome MT,,, little advise to you,, sit down relax and read some threads, get familiar with the participants of the forum. A good amount of people here have been training a long time. Your thread post and back round in your style is sure to get you a quick sink or swim reception.
Hi Hoshin,

Yes I realized that pretty much directly after I posted. It's fun to get your feet wet. :)
 
Hi Alex. I won't presume to speak for Chris, but I believe what he is asking about is not your teaching skills. You may be an excellent instructor and an skilled martial artist. None of us has seen you teach, so we're not in a position to comment on that. I believe what he is questioning is your knowledge of traditional martial arts practice. If you search the forums, you'll see that we've had a few lively discussions as to what exactly constitutes traditional martial arts practice. Chris is one of those who has done quite a bit of research into martial histories and traditions, especially of the Japanese arts, and he can get prickly when those are misrepresented.
Ah, I see. I don't claim to be a historian by any means, however I can only explain what I mean personally when I say traditional martial arts. That being the original practices of east Asia that are rooted in and spread out from Bodhidharma's teachings. However, I understand if someone else may mean something different when they say "traditional".
 
I don't claim to be a historian by any means, however I can only explain what I mean personally when I say traditional martial arts. That being the original practices of east Asia that are rooted in and spread out from Bodhidharma's teachings.
Yeah, this is where we start running into issues...
  1. There are many, many different martial arts originating from East Asia that have very different origins, traditions, philosophies and training methods from each other.
  2. Despite certain myths that get repeated, the vast majority of those arts have no basis in the teachings of Bodhidharma.
  3. From what I've seen on the Oom Yung Doe website, it doesn't appear that the arts which are claimed as the basis for Oom Yung Doe are being taught in their traditional form or that their histories are being presented accurately.
This is not intended as a slam against your art or your abilities as a practitioner and instructor of that art. It's just noting that your ideas about "the original practices of east Asia" may be lacking in historical accuracy.
 
Yeah, this is where we start running into issues...
  1. There are many, many different martial arts originating from East Asia that have very different origins, traditions, philosophies and training methods from each other.
  2. Despite certain myths that get repeated, the vast majority of those arts have no basis in the teachings of Bodhidharma.
  3. From what I've seen on the Oom Yung Doe website, it doesn't appear that the arts which are claimed as the basis for Oom Yung Doe are being taught in their traditional form or that their histories are being presented accurately.
This is not intended as a slam against your art or your abilities as a practitioner and instructor of that art. It's just noting that your ideas about "the original practices of east Asia" may be lacking in historical accuracy.
I understand. Like I said, as long as its inquisitive and educational conversation I take no offense. I don't disagree with what you are saying either. There is a myriad of martial arts with all different origins. To be honest I don't look into it too extensively either because over 2000 years there is expectedly much debate and no real way to say we know 100% how history really played out. Anyways, we do explain some things differently than alot of schools, but we do have the strength, skill, and ability to back it, which I hope you will find intriguing :) As far as documented history I claim 0 expertise, and would be happy to read anything you'd like to share with me. Thanks.
 
I understand. Like I said, as long as its inquisitive and educational conversation I take no offense. I don't disagree with what you are saying either. There is a myriad of martial arts with all different origins. To be honest I don't look into it too extensively either because over 2000 years there is expectedly much debate and no real way to say we know 100% how history really played out. Anyways, we do explain some things differently than alot of schools, but we do have the strength, skill, and ability to back it, which I hope you will find intriguing :) As far as documented history I claim 0 expertise, and would be happy to read anything you'd like to share with me. Thanks.
I've got no problem with someone promoting their art based on the skill and ability of its practitioners. My primary art (BJJ) is a non-traditional art which is promoted the same way. However if I were to start telling people about what constitutes "traditional" martial arts practice based on how we do things in BJJ, then I would probably not get the most positive of responses.

As far as sharing history resources, that depends on what you are looking for. Martial arts history is a big topic and much of it gets tricky and unreliable once you go back a few generations. We do have a few people on this forum who are reasonably knowledgeable on historical topics, Chris Parker is one of the better sources for background on historical Japanese arts.
 
I've got no problem with someone promoting their art based on the skill and ability of its practitioners. My primary art (BJJ) is a non-traditional art which is promoted the same way. However if I were to start telling people about what constitutes "traditional" martial arts practice based on how we do things in BJJ, then I would probably not get the most positive of responses.

As far as sharing history resources, that depends on what you are looking for. Martial arts history is a big topic and much of it gets tricky and unreliable once you go back a few generations. We do have a few people on this forum who are reasonably knowledgeable on historical topics, Chris Parker is one of the better sources for background on historical Japanese arts.
Right. I guess it's good to mention that about 70+% of our knowledge is based on Bagua and we consider that knowledge to be the core and most valuable part of our system. I've already heard the arguments about that because people say Bagua started with Dong Haichuan, even though he stated that he learned it from Taoist monks, and it isn't stated where they learned it. Anyways, you're right, it gets fuzzy the further you go back.
 
Right. I guess it's good to mention that about 70+% of our knowledge is based on Bagua and we consider that knowledge to be the core and most valuable part of our system. I've already heard the arguments about that because people say Bagua started with Dong Haichuan, even though he stated that he learned it from Taoist monks, and it isn't stated where they learned it. Anyways, you're right, it gets fuzzy the further you go back.
Cool. I don't have any background in Bagua, so I can't judge how traditional the forms shown on the website are. I know enough about jujutsu, aikido, and kendo to see that what's demonstrated wouldn't be judged as traditional by most practitioners of those styles. Do you happen to know what Mr. Kim's background in those three arts was when he founded Oom Yung Doe?
 
Also, "Kung Fu" is listed as one of the 8 arts that goes into Oom Ying Doe. Given that "Kung Fu" is a blanket term for a variety of very different arts, do you know precisely which system(s) of Kung Fu is/are being referred to? I see that Tai Chi and Bagua are listed separately, so presumably it's some other form of CMA.
 
I had one student who took a form of Bagua for a few years in China and he said he was blown away with the level of strength our Bagua has comparatively to what he learned. Anyways, are you saying you aren't familiar with alot of the joint locks, hip tosses, takedowns, throws, etc in the videos? Also the kendo forms you see, that we call Kom Do (which is just the Korean translation) are called Chung Dan Hyungs, which contain alot of key developmental movements. However, the rudimentary techniques taught look pretty similar, i.e. drilling lots and lots of cuts lol.
 
Also, "Kung Fu" is listed as one of the 8 arts that goes into Oom Ying Doe. Given that "Kung Fu" is a blanket term for a variety of very different arts, do you know precisely which system(s) of Kung Fu is/are being referred to? I see that Tai Chi and Bagua are listed separately, so presumably it's some other form of CMA.
Yes I know. Kung Fu simply means "skill" and refers to alot of arts. For sake of simplicity we base it on alot of nature forms, meaning it was derived from watching animals in their natural habitat, or from the principles of ocean waves, tornadoes, etc etc. with the emphasis being on developing the mind and body through copying the natural movement, absorbing natures energy into the body, melding ones own energy with nature(becoming one with nature) , etc etc lol. Anyways, I hope that makes sense to you.
 
Yes I know. Kung Fu simply means "skill" and refers to alot of arts.
But which of the arts are you guys referring to? You can base it on animals or nature all you want, but there should still be some underlying CMA for it to be called Kung Fu and not be misleading.
 
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