How useful are the teaching methods of some arts???

[wolfeyes2323]

Regardless of tangents, there is something which has been lost here,

Might I suggest reading “On killing”
http://www.amazon.com/Killing-Psychological-Cost-Learning-Society/dp/0316330116

It seems that the way we train has a direct effect on our willingness
To kill.
There was at one time a reluctance to do so,
This is being conditioned out of us,
Our culture is teaching us to be more violent on mass,
This is evident if you watch the nightly news.

I take training and teaching very seriously,
And understanding the above , and also,
fully understand Why it is not a good idea to
indiscriminately teach Or practice methods that’s
reinforce or enable these violent trends and the
breakdown in the morals of the society we live in.

THANK FOR YOUR CONVERSATION
Romney^..^

 

[Cirdan]

It seems that the way we train has a direct effect on our willingness
To kill.
There was at one time a reluctance to do so,
This is being conditioned out of us,
Our culture is teaching us to be more violent on mass,
This is evident if you watch the nightly news.

Of course this is also an aspect of MA, removing the mental blocks to harm or even kill another person. Then you are able to make a choise. Why would it be any different?

 

[wolfeyes2323]

There are really three questions that we must ask before engaging in violence
(or even leaving home in the morning , armed with the Potential to be lethal)

Am I ready to die today
Am I ready to kill today
Is it worth it

It is in answering this last question that we see the greatest change
In modern society, it is echoed in this discussion,
We have here, those who mock me for suggesting that
The value of a few DVD’s or a few electronic devices ,
Is NOT worth both endangering their own life and/or using violence
To potentially take the life of a fellow citizen over these items,
I think that sums up the conversation very well,

There really is nothing left to say to anyone who beleives this,

Romney^..^

 

[Xue Sheng]

wolfseyes2323

You appear to me, or at least in your posts here, to live in a very Black and White world, Live or Die, Kill or be killed. But I could be mistaken that is easy to do in the world of WWW posting.

Let me add something here and take it for what it is worth.

Fighting is a very serious thing and unless you are willing to live with the consequences of fighting, it is best not to fight. This was pretty much what my first Sensei said over 30 years ago.

I also was at a seminar a few years ago with John Painter and he told a story about what his Sifu use to say, and I will not go into the whole thing here but the bottom-line of the whole story was; If you fight, kill the other person and after that you should go kill his family and friends so they will not come try and kill you or your family. Sifu Painter not wanting to kill was told “then don’t fight”

But, IMO, and equally as important talking of killing should not be taken lightly and certainly should not be presented in a manor that because one is willing to kill they are superior to another that is not willing to kill.

Bushido is an interesting read as is the study of the Samurai but the world today is not the world depicted in the “Last Samurai” or for that matter was that even the world of the time it is suppose to have taken place.

Might I suggest reading Ghandi, DT Suzuki, Thich Nhat Hahn, Shunryu Suzuki, Kǒng Fūzǐ (Confucius), Laozi (Lao Tzu), Zhuang Zi (Chuang Tzu) and the like

 

[Cirdan]

Am I ready to die today

You can get killed walking your doggy. Ready or not. This is life.

Am I ready to kill today

You never know if you are ready until the movement of truth arrives. At that point it may be them or you.

Is it worth it

Only if you want to live

 

[hogstooth]

Different teachers teach different ways. Some with hold information because they wait for the student to reach a certain maturity level. Others wait to see the character of a student. Then still others may never have been taught these techniques and therefore can't pass them on.
I personally think that techniques that are of an advanced or dangerous nature should not be taught until the student exibits maturity and a certain amount of responsibility.
I know that some of the old masters would not teach these techniques to foreign students for fear that it could someday be used against them in times of war. Because of this reason some instructors may not know these techniques and therefore can not pass them on.
I have seen several different versions of the applications and bunkai of one kata. I have seen a different version of the same application from my instructor to his instructor.
If you think about it these masters had to teach their art in secret. It would stand to reason that they would hold back information from their students until they thought thought the time was right.
If a student quits after they recieve their BB then it would also stand to reason that they would not have been taught these and other components of the art. Which I would think is one of the main reasons that techniques are lost. In todays fast food society everyone wants everything now. The oriental mind is not built on this philosophy. There is a time and a place to pass on every technique and is based on the students ability to learn it, their attitude, temperment and maturity level and is the sole discression of the instructor. This means that you may not have learned it because your instructor didn't think you were at that level. Or they themselves were never taight it.

 

[tko4u]

Well, it depends on the art, and the teaching style. I will take an example that best exemplifies your question;

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

The gracies teach this a very awkward way. They have you "roll" out on the mat, meaning wrestle and gain position, and only when you make a mistake do they teach you what you did wrong and what you should do to correct it.

I have been trained in traditional taekwondo, so this teaching method is very weird to me. Having a structured class is very important to me. It makes the art.

 

[exile]

I'd like to tie this discussion to some of the other threads that have developed in the TKD section; a lot of those discussions are also relevant to Karate teaching as well. So here goes...

It's a matter of exhaustively documented fact that once upon a time, long ago, the karate-based MAs were taught at a small scale—one instructor, a few students at most—and the students were given kata to learn, to study in detail and develop applications from. Both Funakoshi and Motobu specialized in Naihanchi, and spent years learning the fighting techs of those arts almost exclusively. Motobu himself was explicit on the point that the kata themselves were considered to be whole fighting styles, not just components of styles. We also know that in order to package karate for the Okinawan school system, Itosu translated the true meaning of the kata movements into relatively safe kick/punch/block moves, and that this was absolutely in line with the needs of the Okinawan expatriates in Japan who were teaching karate to relatively huge classes. But at the same time, it's important to remember that Funakoshi was not teaching self-defense in Japan. His pitch to the Japanese education/defense ministries was that karate was a way to instill discipline, and physical hardiness, in students, since, as everyone knew, those qualities would be crucial for the coming war in Asia. And Itosu himself wasn't all that concerned with the SD capabilities of his very young charges in Okinawa; for them, karate was to be a kind of martial calisthenics. The large-scale kihon line drills that are so central a part of karate teaching (and karate's spinoff arts, such as TKD and TSD) are perfect for the expatriate era of karate instruction, but so far as close quarters combat for self defense is concerned...

The recent bunkai-based movement to restore SD application to the heart of the karate curriculum (which our own members StuartA and Simon O'Neil (SJON) are the bleeding-edge examples of) suggests a very different approach to the karate(-based) curriculum: make the analysis of forms the basis for the curriculum—teach the forms, and how to extract their combat meaning, and then, crucially, teach people realistic application of those techs under severe pressure—with aggressive, non-compliant training partners doing their best to imitate the behavior of violent attackers. This kind of training is far less pleasant than the martial line-dances you often see in dojos and dojangs... but in terms of SD, it's far more useful. It's really quite simple: if we want to learn how to fight, we need to go back to the older teaching approach where the student/teacher ratio favored the student, and the reality was, you are learning how to damage, at least to the point of incapacitation, a dangerous violent aggressor. If that's what you're looking for, the long-term teaching methods in the karate-based arts, replicating the Itosu school karate teaching methods that Funakoshi brought over to Japan, are probably much less useful than what's emerging in the bunkai-jutsu approaches pioneered in the contemporary UK.

To see what's at stake, look at the threads about StuartA's and SJON's approach to TKD (use the Search button to look for threads or posts initiated these chaps). If you think in term of what they're saying, the ideal curriculum in these arts is built around starting with robust, combat-effective techs and working through the various fighting ranges, bringing in new techs for increasingly tricky situations as the student advances. To my mind, this whole line of investigation is the most important development in the karate-based arts since... well, since Itosu!

 

[wolfeyes2323]

Greetings – Xue Sheng, thank you for you kind advice,
I have read many of the classics that you Mention ,
and continue my studies , I have the Analects checked
out of the library presently : )

I do believe that The use of Violence is Black and White.
Violence is the same as any addictive behavior,
the addict thinks they can control it , but they CAN NOT,
Once violence is used it is a spark that will ignite a raging fire,
it will explode in our face ,consume us, and may also
consume everyone around us .

Wat we believe is a simple matter we can resolve with
controlled physical confrontation, all to quickly escalates
to the taking of life, and there is no going back.

We have no control over the seriousness those
we confront will take confrontation,
and if we harm someone we can not undo it,
and those harmed will NEVER forget, and seek
vengeance.

You mention Bushido this is the way of death and too death,
It is a code of conduct and set of beliefs that help those who
Practice it, resign their selves to death, and willingly become
Consumed in the flames of suffering which violence brings .
They serve death not life, to follow this path is to lose hope
In life, for who will you serve in a civil society ?
Who will you kill and die for ?
It was exactly this dilemma which created Roan and
Saw the rise of dueling to the death within a civil context
Within Japanese society ,
This is repeated all to often in the USA by gang members.
and all for nothing, turf , money , drugs, disrespect ,
in someones book any one of these may be worth your life.

There are times and places where this attitude is necessary ,
But it should not be within a CIVIL society.

Every step we take is toward life or death
And every confrontation is a cross roads ,
Once you use violence you have chosen death,
And the path may be far steeper then anticipated.

Romney^..^

 

[Xue Sheng]

I'd like to tie this discussion to some of the other threads that have developed in the TKD section; a lot of those discussions are also relevant to Karate teaching as well. So here goes...

It's a matter of exhaustively documented fact that once upon a time, long ago, the karate-based MAs were taught at a small scale—one instructor, a few students at most—and the students were given kata to learn, to study in detail and develop applications from. Both Funakoshi and Motobu specialized in Naihanchi, and spent years learning the fighting techs of those arts almost exclusively. Motobu himself was explicit on the point that the kata themselves were considered to be whole fighting styles, not just components of styles. We also know that in order to package karate for the Okinawan school system, Itosu translated the true meaning of the kata movements into relatively safe kick/punch/block moves, and that this was absolutely in line with the needs of the Okinawan expatriates in Japan who were teaching karate to relatively huge classes. But at the same time, it's important to remember that Funakoshi was not teaching self-defense in Japan. His pitch to the Japanese education/defense ministries was that karate was a way to instill discipline, and physical hardiness, in students, since, as everyone knew, those qualities would be crucial for the coming war in Asia. And Itosu himself wasn't all that concerned with the SD capabilities of his very young charges in Okinawa; for them, karate was to be a kind of martial calisthenics. The large-scale kihon line drills that are so central a part of karate teaching (and karate's spinoff arts, such as TKD and TSD) are perfect for the expatriate era of karate instruction, but so far as close quarters combat for self defense is concerned...

The recent bunkai-based movement to restore SD application to the heart of the karate curriculum (which our own members StuartA and Simon O'Neil (SJON) are the bleeding-edge examples of) suggests a very different approach to the karate(-based) curriculum: make the analysis of forms the basis for the curriculum—teach the forms, and how to extract their combat meaning, and then, crucially, teach people realistic application of those techs under severe pressure—with aggressive, non-compliant training partners doing their best to imitate the behavior of violent attackers. This kind of training is far less pleasant than the martial line-dances you often see in dojos and dojangs... but in terms of SD, it's far more useful. It's really quite simple: if we want to learn how to fight, we need to go back to the older teaching approach where the student/teacher ratio favored the student, and the reality was, you are learning how to damage, at least to the point of incapacitation, a dangerous violent aggressor. If that's what you're looking for, the long-term teaching methods in the karate-based arts, replicating the Itosu school karate teaching methods that Funakoshi brought over to Japan, are probably much less useful than what's emerging in the bunkai-jutsu approaches pioneered in the contemporary UK.

To see what's at stake, look at the threads about StuartA's and SJON's approach to TKD (use the Search button to look for threads or posts initiated these chaps). If you think in term of what they're saying, the ideal curriculum in these arts is built around starting with robust, combat-effective techs and working through the various fighting ranges, bringing in new techs for increasingly tricky situations as the student advances. To my mind, this whole line of investigation is the most important development in the karate-based arts since... well, since Itosu!

Agreed... But... a TCMA POV... Or at least my TCMA POV

Most CMA styles tend to be form heavy and focus at some point on 2 person forms and tuishou. Without this base and jumping right into sparing and applications you miss the point and you are no longer training TCMA. You are training an Westernized or in some cases Japanized (I know I made up a word, but I hope you get my point) version if you will and I have of late begun to feel that a BIG issue in TCMA or any CMA today actually is the complete lack of understanding of the culture it comes from and the attempt to force another cultural view upon it. My past example has been Combat Taiji and I can honestly say I have nothing against "combat taiji" as a martial art but it is not, IMO, Taijiquan. I have also seen Aikido combines with Taiji and it is neither Aikido nor Taijiquan they are something else. My last Xingyiquan sifu had great understanding of the forms and applications of Xingyiquan but he lacked the cultural understanding of it and his sparing was not CMA, It was TKD and Kempo. He is an incredible fighter just not an incredible CMA fighter.

So when bringing the tech or fighting back in I tend to be of the belief that it is a good thing but it ones goal is to stick with the tradition of the art and to restore what has been lost one must be very careful what one brings back in.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Greetings – Xue Sheng, thank you for you kind advice,
I have read many of the classics that you Mention ,
and continue my studies , I have the Analects checked
out of the library presently : )

I do believe that The use of Violence is Black and White.
Violence is the same as any addictive behavior,
the addict thinks they can control it , but they CAN NOT,
Once violence is used it is a spark that will ignite a raging fire,
it will explode in our face ,consume us, and may also
consume everyone around us .

Wat we believe is a simple matter we can resolve with
controlled physical confrontation, all to quickly escalates
to the taking of life, and there is no going back.

We have no control over the seriousness those
we confront will take confrontation,
and if we harm someone we can not undo it,
and those harmed will NEVER forget, and seek
vengeance.

You mention Bushido this is the way of death and too death,
It is a code of conduct and set of beliefs that help those who
Practice it, resign their selves to death, and willingly become
Consumed in the flames of suffering which violence brings .
They serve death not life, to follow this path is to lose hope
In life, for who will you serve in a civil society ?
Who will you kill and die for ?
It was exactly this dilemma which created Roan and
Saw the rise of dueling to the death within a civil context
Within Japanese society ,
This is repeated all to often in the USA by gang members.
and all for nothing, turf , money , drugs, disrespect ,
in someones book any one of these may be worth your life.

There are times and places where this attitude is necessary ,
But it should not be within a CIVIL society.

Every step we take is toward life or death
And every confrontation is a cross roads ,
Once you use violence you have chosen death,
And the path may be far steeper then anticipated.

Romney^..^

Although I do get were your coming from having the experience of over 100 physical confrontations under my belt, none of which ended in death of anyone and countless verbal confrontations where one threaten death but it came of nothing but me talking them out of doing something silly, I just do not agree with what you are saying in total here. I do not feel that in "most" cases violence can be defined as an addictive behavior. And I do fully believe that if one has proper training that in most cases it can be controlled. And one has loads of control of over the seriousness of the majority of most confrontations (not all); of course we are now in the realm of the psychological approach not the physical.

Although I do agree that any confrontation is a VERY serious thing and not to be taken lightly and if at all possible run away to avoid one, but a confrontation is a rather fluid thing and it can escalate exponentially in a matter of seconds. I do not feel that all confrontations are black and white, kill or be killed. It is of course always a possibility, but in the 21st century if you approach all confrontations as kill or be killed then you have to kill everyone you fight with and that will only lead to 1 of 2 things. You get killed or you spend the rest of your life in prison for killing someone else.

 

[Cirdan]

I do believe that The use of Violence is Black and White.
Violence is the same as any addictive behavior,
the addict thinks they can control it , but they CAN NOT,
Once violence is used it is a spark that will ignite a raging fire,
it will explode in our face ,consume us, and may also
consume everyone around us .

Is not the primary focus of martial arts to control violence?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If an art form was originally taught a certain way in order to hide certain aspects of that art from the general public and there is no longer a reason to hide such things are they still taught this way for traditions sake??

Rather than use specific examples I'd like to hear peoples thoughts on this in general without any direction from me.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

I can think of some martial arts, such as Capoiera, that were taught a certain way to keep its practice secret, but the practices used to keep it secret (dance, music) are simply taught as part of the art, rather than the art itself being truncated or selectively suppressed in some fashion.

I find it more likely that aspects of some arts fall into disuse and are no longer widely practiced, thus when some people learn them, they may be unwilling to just show them to anyone.

I also think that the whole McDojo phenomena has greatly accelerated this for some arts; teaching for real world effectiveness requires a whole different type of training than what most McDojo customers really are prepared for. And so, parts of the art are "lost" due to widespread neglect.

Then you have the masters who want to enhance their image who either know, or allude to knowing these "lost" techniques, hint at it with fortune cookie wisdom, but won't teach it, for reasons unspecified, usually because they either really don't know it or because they know it, but don't feel that there is a demand for it.

Really, I feel that it comes down to the instructor, not the art:

Some instructors always want their students to feel that there's something more, special, deadly, a secret only imparted to a student once he or she is worthy, thus the student is kept around longer awaiting the opportunity to pick up this "final technique."

Other instructors will teach everything they know to a student and dispense with the "mystic master" thing.

Then there are others who don't know much of anything beyond the basics, but watched too much Kung Fu and strive to be seen as some sort of Master Po or Kwai Chang Cain.

So here's my own bit of fortune cookie wisdom: there are many instructors out there, but only some are right for you, so...

...Choose... but choose wisely.

Daniel

 

[wolfeyes2323]

Greeting – Xue Sheng , thank you for continuing the conversation,
Let us keep in mind that this thread is about what we teach and do not teach.

I also had a violent past, Unlike you perhaps I was hunted by my
Adversaries just as I hunted them, I will not go into this except to
Say, most violence begins after the initial confrontation,
People shot and stabbed repeatedly, beaten for long periods of time
And purposely made to suffer for as long as possible,
I lost some very good friends to street violence, and had the
Unpleasant experience of seeing some injured very badly

This is actually why I started training a MA, to control my violence.

I joined a Dojo which was started in 1962, by a US marine recruiter,
The majority of the early students were military men, some
Very disillusioned with Vietnam, The white students tended to be
Bikers and the outlaw type, the blacks tended to be on the radical
Side, they managed to co-exist in a very racially divided city and time,
Purely as a result of what was taught to them as karate.
(respect, tolerance, brotherhood)
We did not need to be taught to be violent, we needed to be taught
how to NOT be violent , how to respect each other , and put our
difference behind us, most of the members became close
regardless of background, those who harbored resentments and
had attitudes toward others tended to leave.

I did not graduate Highschool I was involved in Racial Riots and violence
When bussing began, My first and most important Sensei was however
A black man, who I grew to respect and admire.

He taught me a lot about tolerance , and intolerance,
And also the futility of undirected violence fueled by hate or emotion.
I did learn to avoid the use of violence and I would say that if
You have used violence 100 times, and it is not as a function of your
Job , or work in law enforcement or security that you are in fact
Addicted to it. ( If you are speaking of matches with other
MA, I distinguish this from street violence ).

Even with this our dojo had its failures
We had one man snap, he killed his wife, 3 children and himself,
Another member who liked to fight (a biker) was imprisoned for 23 years.
I started teaching after my sensei died and I inherited the dojo,
Some of the older members still come and train but I do most of the teaching ,
I also had my failures , one of my students , a veteran on medication became
Distraught because his x-wife was using his medical condition to gain sole custody
Of their only child, The VA hospital was totally unsupportive, and my student
Snapped , he drove over to the VA hospital , shot and stabbed several people
In a attempted to kill his case worker, he then hanged himself while
In custody.
I also recently got the news that one of my young former students, must be 21-22 now
is in prison for cutting someone with a knife during a altercation.

Prison is the worst most unpredictable place on the planet, Violence is
Rampant, and you can die for what might seem to us minor incidences .
You might sit at the wrong table, in the wrong chair, take the last donut ,
Or just refuse to be extorted .

When you look at the above, (which I grant is only a small sample )
I feel that my teaching and how I teach is curving the violence of my students,
For instance, as a military veteran and someone I trained in karate and weapons
Arts, the man who attacked the VA hospital , did know how to kill,
But read this article, he deliberately avoided it,

http://www.usmedicine.com/article.cfm?articleID=253&issueID=30

The same with the young man in prision, he cut his opponent over his heart,
The man knows how to use a knife, this was a warning , had he intended to
Kill his opponent he would be dead, but , use a knife in a fight, and you
will likely see prision .

Before I moved the dojo to its current location , it was on the fringe of a very
bad section of our city, since we have left the area, 2 teenagers were shot dead across The street from where the dojo was, within 2 blocks 4 other teens were
Killed within a short time, some just innocent by standers, Kids 13 yrs old,
This is violence raging out of control and consuming all around it.
And they all somehow feel justified in doing this, and are callous to the
Suffering they cause.

I have experienced this type of thing happen amongst those I know,
Been to the funerals and vigils, I wrote my letters to those in prison,
Visited them in rehab, and tried to help them as best I could, but in the
End, if they chose violence there is nothing to be done, I can not help.

I had the best man at my wedding call me in the middle of the night
A few years ago, to tell me he had been stabbed in the chest and
Was dying , I asked him if he had dialed 911, and he told me NO,
I’m not sure I want to live, I told him when he figured it out to call me
Back, (I had tried to help him before to no avail) , he laid bleeding
For several hours before his live in girl friend called an ambulance,
And he did almost die. Since then he has died , it was inevitable
Due to his choices in life, he had chosen death long before his
Final day, when he died alone.

There are choices in life that lead To continued life, to being a
Productive member of society , and allowing you to enjoy
This existence despite hardship,
and there are choices
That lead to death, to suffering and needless hardship,
Violence is a part of all of this needless suffering and death,
In a civil context it can almost always Be avoided,
It is seldom worth the cost in terms of your own life,
And almost always resolvable in a different manner.

There are of course exceptions, and depending on where
You live they may be more or less likely to occur,
But, with good training and precautions, it is possible
To avoid most of these.

Sometimes it might mean , that we must walk away from insult,
We may need to drive on and not stop to confront someone who
Flipped us the bird, it might mean getting a description of ,
Or following a thief , and later prosecuting them , rather then
Confronting them with violence .

There are many choices in most cases, and if we can choose ,
The choice should not be violence, Violence should only
Be used when we are given NO other Choice,
There will then be NO regrets, and we will be able to
Live with the consequences regardless of what they might be.

If we teach otherwise, if we teach violence,
We create human suffering, and I for one , do not wish to
Be responsible for that, so do take care , what and who I teach,
And I KNOW I am right in doing this.

Romney^..^

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Romney,

Lets try to keep the thread on topic. The subject you pose is interesting enough. Perhaps a separate thread on the subject of violence and teaching in the martial arts?

Daniel

 

[Xue Sheng]

I also had a violent past, Unlike you perhaps I was hunted by my
Adversaries just as I hunted them, I will not go into this except to
Say, most violence begins after the initial confrontation,
People shot and stabbed repeatedly, beaten for long periods of time
And purposely made to suffer for as long as possible,
I lost some very good friends to street violence, and had the
Unpleasant experience of seeing some injured very badly

It is obvious from this that we grew up in very different situation and lived in very different places. My only similar experience here is due to past job I did receive death threats but they never turned out to be more than a threat. And at one time in my younger days I was considered by many to be a biker by appearance and association but I had been in MA for years prior to that.

You have used violence 100 times, and it is not as a function of your
Job , or work in law enforcement or security that you are in fact
Addicted to it. ( If you are speaking of matches with other
MA, I distinguish this from street violence ).

It was a function of my Job, security at hospitals with Mental Health and detox units. It is amazing the frequency of confrontations in that environment.

I also feel I need to add that you are using, quite real, but extreme cases and the whole world is not these extreme cases but I cannot argue against what you are saying here since this appears to be where you are coming from and as I stated I do not have that history.

There are many choices in most cases, and if we can choose ,
The choice should not be violence, Violence should only
Be used when we are given NO other Choice,
There will then be NO regrets, and we will be able to
Live with the consequences regardless of what they might be.

This we pretty much agree on however I doubt there will be no regrets it is just that one needs to be aware of the possible consequences of a fight and not take things like fighting lightly and needs to be able to live with them afterwards if one chooses to fight.

But as Celtic Tiger pointed out this is not the topic of this thread so I will bow out of this conversation here and let it get back to topic
:asian:

 

[wolfeyes2323]

IMO,
The goal of a martial art is to stop violence before it occurs,
once violence has started , it takes on a life of its own,
you might control it in this moment in this time and space,
but , what about tomorrow , and perhaps somewhere else
where we are less prepared .
This is the basis of drive by shootings,
or, those who leave and come back with weapons or
a group of others to seek vengeance,
the more violence we use, the more that is likely
to be used against us. If they know we are armed , they
are not coming back empty handed, if they know we can fight,
they are going to find a equalizer, if they know we are ready,
they may wait until we are not, if we are strong, they
may attack the weak , (your wife or children) ,
once the cycle of violence begins , we have no control,
over what happens next.

If you cause harm to others, you have made enemies for life,
at the first opportunity they will seek revenge,
I am less concerned with winning a fight today when I am
ready for it , than I am concerned with winning the fight
tomorrow when I may not be , by avoiding or stopping
the use of violence today, I , resolve the future conflicts
as well.

Stopping violence is a matter of not starting it to begin with.
Otherwise, it may l rage until life is consumed.

Sun Tzu:
2. Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence;
supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.

3. Thus the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans;
the next best is to prevent the junction of the enemy's forces;
the next in order is to attack the enemy's army in the field;
and the worst policy of all is to besiege walled cities.

http://classics.mit.edu/Tzu/artwar.html


Listen to the meaning of KoBUdo explained

Romney^..^

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Romney,

What does any of this have to do with the OP?

Daniel

 

[zeeberex]

Tradditional way know there is a concept, let me say this no-matter how much we say we are teaching the traditional way we really have no clue, we know we are teaching the way we was tought but to say out teachers was teaching the way there teachers was is a far cry, except your art is anewer one like withen the last twenrt five year. Tradition dates back to the beginning of time and I was not there so all I can say is I keep it as close as I can to the way I was tought.

Regarding the comment that a teacher may teach a given way because they don't understand why the art was taught a given way, if he doesnt understand the art, he shouldn't teach it.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Regarding the comment that a teacher may teach a given way because they don't understand why the art was taught a given way, if he doesnt understand the art, he shouldn't teach it.

I agree wholeheartedly. Of course the teacher in question would need to understand that they do not understand.

Daniel