How useful are the teaching methods of some arts???

[thetruth]

If an art form was originally taught a certain way in order to hide certain aspects of that art from the general public and there is no longer a reason to hide such things are they still taught this way for traditions sake??

Rather than use specific examples I'd like to hear peoples thoughts on this in general without any direction from me.

Cheers
Sam:asian:

 

[tshadowchaser]

I have two thoughts on this:

First the art may be taught the same way because the teachers today may not know the reason why it was taught or the hidden. Techniques that where intended for the advanced student to learn may have never been passed down.
If the techniques have no reason to be with held then I would expect that a student would learn them over a period of time

2nd teaching for tradition or in a traditional way keeps the art traditional. The more the teaching is changed the more the art is changed thusly it becomes something different after time

 

[jkembry]

I have two thoughts on this:

First the art may be taught the same way because the teachers today may not know the reason why it was taught or the hidden. Techniques that where intended for the advanced student to learn may have never been passed down.
If the techniques have no reason to be with held then I would expect that a student would learn them over a period of time

Agree...I tend to learn a lot this way. I call it learning by osmosis. Sometimes it is fairly quickly absorbed and other times it seems to take forever.

2nd teaching for tradition or in a traditional way keeps the art traditional. The more the teaching is changed the more the art is changed thusly it becomes something different after time

I believe that keeping things traditional is a good thing...although there are time that I believe the meaning behind the tradition may get lost as the methods are passed on. This is where I think maybe some deviation in order to improve teaching and understanding may be okay.

 

[terryl965]

Tradditional way know there is a concept, let me say this no-matter how much we say we are teaching the traditional way we really have no clue, we know we are teaching the way we was tought but to say out teachers was teaching the way there teachers was is a far cry, except your art is anewer one like withen the last twenrt five year. Tradition dates back to the beginning of time and I was not there so all I can say is I keep it as close as I can to the way I was tought.

 

[bowser666]

The art has nothing to do with it. It is all up to the teacher. There is a wide variety of teaching methods that can be employed. Too many to list. To simplify though, it could be broken down into traditional, and non-traditional maybe ?

 

[Flying Crane]

It sounds like you may have some specific teaching methods in mind, that you feel are ineffectual. Care to share"? then we can discuss specifics and it might be more fruitful than speaking in generalities.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Killing methods? ....are usually not taught to the younger kids...breaking necks...digging eyes balls out...ripping ears off, thoat strikes (depends) and so on....

Some schools reserved some techniques for the upper ranks students...
----------------------------------------------------------------------

On the other side? ......everyone wants to learn what they can use right away to save there own lives...MOST OF THESE TECHNIQUE CAN BE LEARN IN ONE DAY (to use it automaticly will take more time)

Rakeing the eyes,striking the thoat,hitting groin (THESE ARE TARKETS)....striking methods can be with any part of the body...hands,feet,head,mouth (bitting),heel,elbows......

What is useful for teaching? ....or for sharing with students depends on your own Teachers toughts on effective training methods...each person will form there own beliefs on this?

Aloha ( I think am lost here?)

 

[Nolerama]

It makes me wonder: are a lot of MAs in practice today the end result of a game of "telephone" where the transition of information might be distorted when it comes down to the end user?

 

[Hyper_Shadow]

If an art form was originally taught a certain way in order to hide certain aspects of that art from the general public

The only account of that being acceptable that I know of is Okinawan farmers hiding their skills in Kata so that Japanese Samurai didn't execute them.

Hiding stuff away means that you'll never get students and then it becomes habitual, over time it worms it's way into the school like a cancer then eats away at the core till all that's left is nothing but a shell.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I have to disagree. Certain things are hidden because the instructor wants the student to learn the movement and the application he is showing that day. He may also show the same technique ( form, whatever) to a person of higher rank and show a little different view, and then to still a higher rank and give the full meaning of the move and show that student the where and why of the full move.
Some things are not intended to be given to anyone walking into the school until that person has proven that they are going to be around a long time and that they have the moral judgment not to use the technique for their own amusement

 

[wolfeyes2323]

Greetings – There are still many things which are not explicitly
taught to the General public , the general public (increasingly).
Lacks a moral compass . When the concept of Moral Culture
Is ignored , Virtuous and necessary actions are reduced to egotistical
violence . A teacher who understands this is very , very selective
about what and who they teach, and when it is appropriate to
teach it .

What is hidden is in plain sight, what is often taught as hidden is
Just a revelation of the inherent potential of the interaction.

There is very little need to explicitly teach the obvious, a good teacher
Will teach his students to recognize the obvious , or what is not hidden ,
but may be unseen or unrealized by the casual observer.

Martial Arts are not just Fighting arts
You do not learn boot camp killing methods, because
We live in a Civilized society , governed by spiritual and
Social laws to which we are accountable ,

It takes time to develop the individual, to build character,
And spirit , to exhibit characteristics of , Patience , Courtesy ,
Diligence , and to learn to express the virtues in our
Actions , Benevolence, Righteousness, propriety , wisdom,
Sincerity .

And if you are thinking , Bah, I don’t want to learn any of that
Crap, I just want to know how to fight or kill people,

That is exactly why, a good teacher would never teach you
To do it, and why this would Never be taught in the open
To the public.

Somethings are truely better off left untaught, a good student
will recognize the potential anyway.

Romney^..^

 

[chinto]

I think the traditional ways of teaching have proven effective over the century's.. and over time a student will see more and more of the applications of the principles and techniques and variations on them. but I would not for instance think it a good idea to take say a new student of age 8 who has a bully problem and teach him or her a basic strike intended to kill and the target that is lethal the first day... bad idea legally and morally. there are reasons why the teaching of many arts come in stages and over time.

 

[Nolerama]

Greetings – There are still many things which are not explicitly
taught to the General public , the general public (increasingly).
Lacks a moral compass . When the concept of Moral Culture
Is ignored , Virtuous and necessary actions are reduced to egotistical
violence . A teacher who understands this is very , very selective
about what and who they teach, and when it is appropriate to
teach it .

What is hidden is in plain sight, what is often taught as hidden is
Just a revelation of the inherent potential of the interaction.

There is very little need to explicitly teach the obvious, a good teacher
Will teach his students to recognize the obvious , or what is not hidden ,
but may be unseen or unrealized by the casual observer.

Martial Arts are not just Fighting arts
You do not learn boot camp killing methods, because
We live in a Civilized society , governed by spiritual and
Social laws to which we are accountable ,

It takes time to develop the individual, to build character,
And spirit , to exhibit characteristics of , Patience , Courtesy ,
Diligence , and to learn to express the virtues in our
Actions , Benevolence, Righteousness, propriety , wisdom,
Sincerity .

And if you are thinking , Bah, I don’t want to learn any of that
Crap, I just want to know how to fight or kill people,

That is exactly why, a good teacher would never teach you
To do it, and why this would Never be taught in the open
To the public.

Somethings are truely better off left untaught, a good student
will recognize the potential anyway.

Romney^..^

I don't agree.

Sure, society lacks a "moral compass" when it comes to many things. I don't think MAs specifically give you any one thing except to learn to fight. You're not being given anything. It's yourself that's realizing the benefits. It's already there.

As far as the "things that shouldn't be taught in the open public" goes, I find that inaccurate. People can learn to damage other people without being taught by a teacher. There's books on it. The US government puts out a book on it. What you're saying throws into question: what makes us martial artists so special that we know these things and other people don't? It's a matter of opportunity and time. What you're pointing out deep down through run-around verbage is that MA knowledge is nothing more than a difference between classes of people. That's all.

And I think you're wrong. Anyone can learn MAs.

What you're talking about is someone's guilt over teaching a style, and that person's student going out and hurting someone unnecessarily IMHO.

It happens. Just like people who are taught chemistry in high school and blow stuff up later. Knowledge is not to blame. Nor is the teacher. It's the circumstances that drove the kid to blow stuff up.

I think the initial point of this thread could be translated into: end performance versus time spent in training method, and how that can be truncated or improved. I think it can in many cases.

Selective about teaching method. If you're worried about a student wanting to simply go out and kill, then don't take the student and refer him or her to counseling. There's no mysticism there. There's just plain common sense.

 

[Cirdan]

There are very few "hidden" things, it is all there right in front of you. This is really just another myth of the arts, in truth it is not about secrets, it is about dedicated training over time.

Control and focus is of course important to those studying the arts. As for morals and such, MA is no better than shoveling goat refuse at the farm. People will become better persons if the chose to do so themselves.

"It is critical that you think everything is an opportunity to kill." -Musashi

 

[wolfeyes2323]

Greetings – It is true that killing methods are common knowledge
In our culture, The sad news is that more and more citizens
Have no reservations about using them,

The way that we train is the way that we are going to respond,
In 99.9 % of situations , a lethal response is not justifiable in
A civil context. So I can train stealth and assassination methods
Exclusively , the best way to take someone out is to not
Fight them at all, but , Kill them out right without warning,

This is clearly taught in all Military Combatant training,

How useful is this to a young , civilian practitioner ?
This will in fact result in anyone trained to do this , to be
Incarcerated or executed for murder, were it ever to be used.
Do I need to worry about what is justified in the mind of
A youthful product of a violent culture , that I trained in this manner ?

The truth is that In a Civil context , Murder is a act of cowardice ,
You Kill someone who you are AFRAID TO FACE another day,
We have more then enough cowards in our society,
And to teach someone to do this barehanded is rather a pointless
Gesture. Fact is that these killing methods only appeal to the
Imagination of the sane individual, because they let them pretend
Even to their self that they are something that they are not ,
And capable of doing something which in all likely hood they
Could not in good conscience bring their selves to do,
And , they appeal to those with serious mental problems
Who would have no qualms about using them for person
Gain or power. (if they can figure out how to get away with it).

The Goal of a traditional Martial art, is to NOT FIGHT ,
It is not TO Fight . This is why Virtue of the practitioner
Has always been the Hallmark of traditional Arts,
Is a expression of virtue to have the ability and opportunity
to kill and destroy And not do either .

The point of the true MARTAIL ARTIST is to
Train diligently to handle ANY situation without harming
Anyone, the less harm the better, for reasons
Mentioned above. You fight and harm someone today,
You will be hunted and fighting the same person or his
Representatives tomorrow.

Learning to kill someone is not that difficult, and actually
Takes a short time, (boot camp is an example)

Learning to NOT kill or harms some one
And still not be harmed and achieve your aims is
A life long pursuit, and can not be learned in
A few classes, or seminars.

You really want to learn to kill and practice your art,
Joint the Armed forces, or be a soldier of fortune,
Good men and women capable of this are NEEDED,

If you are learning this to practice in a civil context,
You are only kidding yourself or you are setting your
Self up to respond in a manner that will result in
Your financial (legal costs) ruin and or incarceration.

Face reality , and the reality is , a sane member of
Society does not need to learn to kill, he needs
To learn how to handle their self without this
Necessity, otherwise, Buy a gun,
It is the most efficient way to do the job,
And you will be no more or less, legally responsible
Then doing the same with your bare hands.

Romney^..^

 

[tshadowchaser]

Murder is a act of cowardice ,
You Kill someone who you are AFRAID TO FACE another day,

I want to agree to disagree on this point.
Sometime the SOB just deserves to live no longer

 

[Nolerama]

Greetings – It is true that killing methods are common knowledge
In our culture, The sad news is that more and more citizens
Have no reservations about using them,

There are lots of schools out there that believe that learning MAs is preparation for a worst-case scenario (i.e. the fall of society, zombies, or an alien attack.)

The way that we train is the way that we are going to respond,
In 99.9 % of situations , a lethal response is not justifiable in
A civil context. So I can train stealth and assassination methods
Exclusively , the best way to take someone out is to not
Fight them at all, but , Kill them out right without warning,

If you're going to fight, then be expect the consequences as much as you expect to get hit. You can get into a scuffle and the person drops dead from a heart attack. Either way, I don't think you're seeing a gray area between lethal and not-so-lethal attacks.

This is clearly taught in all Military Combatant training,

Many military organizations (including the US) teach non-lethal technique... Some even express the non-lethality, as well as the effectiveness of the style.

How useful is this to a young , civilian practitioner ?
This will in fact result in anyone trained to do this , to be
Incarcerated or executed for murder, were it ever to be used.
Do I need to worry about what is justified in the mind of
A youthful product of a violent culture , that I trained in this manner ?

Have you ever been singled out in a violent manner? Have you ever stood up for a person in a situation where physical confrontation is more effective than waiting for the police? No one's telling you to "KILL KILL KILL" but they are telling you to "OVERCOME OUTPERFORM WIN." It's not murder if a court of law sees your situation as a defensive one. They would have to show INTENT and MOTIVE in order to convict you for murder.

The truth is that In a Civil context , Murder is a act of cowardice ,
You Kill someone who you are AFRAID TO FACE another day,

Optimus Prime didn't off Megatron... and look what happened to him. I'd rather win a confrontation and spend one night in jail for seriously injuring my attacker, and suffer a court date where I can clearly defend myself in a court of law. Self defense can definitely be argued.

We have more then enough cowards in our society,
And to teach someone to do this barehanded is rather a pointless
Gesture. Fact is that these killing methods only appeal to the
Imagination of the sane individual, because they let them pretend
Even to their self that they are something that they are not ,
And capable of doing something which in all likely hood they
Could not in good conscience bring their selves to do,
And , they appeal to those with serious mental problems
Who would have no qualms about using them for person
Gain or power. (if they can figure out how to get away with it).

Again, you see no gray area (by that I mean reality) when it comes to a SD situation, or the gravity of a hand-to-hand altercation. It's pretty hard to kill someone with your bare hands. But it's comparatively easy to maim someone and get away. It's called "control." I don't think you see this.

The Goal of a traditional Martial art, is to NOT FIGHT ,
It is not TO Fight . This is why Virtue of the practitioner
Has always been the Hallmark of traditional Arts,
Is a expression of virtue to have the ability and opportunity
to kill and destroy And not do either .

Lots of TMAs will disagree with you on that. One reason being that this kind of argument imposes your morality on others. Some people don't care about Virtue (which is a really wide-reaching concept) or believe in your virtues.

The point of the true MARTAIL ARTIST is to
Train diligently to handle ANY situation without harming
Anyone, the less harm the better, for reasons
Mentioned above. You fight and harm someone today,
You will be hunted and fighting the same person or his
Representatives tomorrow.

The first part, I agree with to an extent. I don't want to permanently harm anyone, but if it happens when I'm trying to defend myself, then that's an acceptable loss. The second part about retaliation of violence: that could happen if you accidentally bump into someone. Being afraid of your own actions denotes cowardice. That's not freedom; that's living in a shell. I'm not saying you should be a tough guy, but I am saying that you should defend yourself and learn from confrontations that you encounter in life. (like this little bout of word-jitsu) I'm learning from you because I see your point of view. However, I'm asking you to inch out of the Cave and see another perspective more aligned with the rough world we live in today.

Learning to kill someone is not that difficult

Ask anyone who has had to kill someone for the principles he or she swore to uphold. The possibility of post traumatic stress disorder and guilt/shame/etc. are known and in the back of their minds.

, and actually
Takes a short time, (boot camp is an example)

The entirety of boot camp isn't even spent on "killing techniques," and is geared more towards knowing one's role within a military organization and performing.

Learning to NOT kill or harms some one
And still not be harmed and achieve your aims is
A life long pursuit, and can not be learned in
A few classes, or seminars.

There are a wide variety of ways to get yourself out of a scrape. One of them is to never go out of the house. Doing that takes about as much time as simply waking up. However, I want to enjoy my existence... And instead of thinking of myself as a potential killer, I'd rather live my life as a prepared individual.

You really want to learn to kill and practice your art,
Joint the Armed forces, or be a soldier of fortune,
Good men and women capable of this are NEEDED,

That's completely asinine. You still don't get to practice your "art" because your bullets are doing the killing for you. I'm kidding. That statement is too generalized to apply to the entire military... or even the majority of the military. Military members actually go through boot camp to uphold some of the "virtues" you claim to possess.

If you are learning this to practice in a civil context,
You are only kidding yourself or you are setting your
Self up to respond in a manner that will result in
Your financial (legal costs) ruin and or incarceration.

There's the exact, same liability in building a swimming pool in your back yard, or organizing a float trip, or driving someone in your vehicle. If you're afraid of that, maybe you should rethink your MA journey.

Face reality , and the reality is , a sane member of
Society does not need to learn to kill,

We can all kill. And "sanity" is in the eye of the beholder. Lots of scenarios can argue against that statement.

he needs
To learn how to handle their self without this
Necessity, otherwise, Buy a gun,
It is the most efficient way to do the job,
And you will be no more or less, legally responsible
Then doing the same with your bare hands.

Lots of gun people will disagree with you on that. Thanks for the roll.

 

[wolfeyes2323]

“Have you ever been singled out in a violent manner? “

Yes

“Have you ever stood up for a person in a situation
where physical confrontation is more effective than waiting
for the police?”

Not more effective, but , More Necessary , Yes.


"OVERCOME OUTPERFORM WIN."

Martial arts are not about winning , they are about survival.
The consequences of violence are something that we must sometimes be willing
To accept, for the participants in violence there is no winning, we suffer
And pay the price regardless.

“It's not murder if a court of law sees your situation as a defensive one.
They would have to show INTENT and MOTIVE in order to convict you for murder.”

A hypothetical question:
Someone has broken into your home, you hear them , your family is sleeping ,
what do you do ?

Romney^..^

 

[tshadowchaser]

set the dogs loose

 

[Steve]

There are very few "hidden" things, it is all there right in front of you. This is really just another myth of the arts, in truth it is not about secrets, it is about dedicated training over time.

Control and focus is of course important to those studying the arts. As for morals and such, MA is no better than shoveling goat refuse at the farm. People will become better persons if the chose to do so themselves.

Agreed. In my experience in activities, including martial arts, the difference between an "expert" and a "novice" is time and repetiton. The only difference between a pro boxer and a novice boxer is work.

And I've said this before, but in my opinion, all of this talk about MA training "teaching" positive traits and character is only true if the MA training itself has integrity. In other words, if you are training MA but focusing on other more abstract concepts like Honor, you're building a house of cards.