How to defeat a Wrestler

[Yoshiyahu]

I was woundering if you guys had experience or advice on how to defeat a wrestler or grappler with using strickly Wing Chun techniques. Some people think you have to study BJJ or Greco Wrestling to be able to defeat a wrestler. But I was wounder if there are any Wing Chun Purist who know how to defeat a western wrestler using strickly Wing Chun tecnhiques and principals?

 

[jarrod]

1) it's going to depend greatly on the grappler you are facing, since there are many styles of grappling, many types of grappler, & many methods of attack within each style.

2) while grappling is not the be all end all of fighting, the best anti-grappling is grappling. nobody has more practice at beating wrestlers than other wrestlers.

jf

 

[MJS]

I agree with Jarrod on this one. While there are grappling concepts in alot of arts, IMO, if one really wants to take their training up a level, they'll need to work with someone who specializes in the art the person is trying better themselves in. If someone wants to better their weapon defense, it may be a good idea to work with someone in a weapon based art. The same for grappling.

Now, this isn't to say that the WC person, the TKD person or any other art, has to quit their base art and take up BJJ for 20yrs. Instead, take the WC grappling defenses, and fine tune them. Working with a grappler will certainly help in this area.

 

[seasoned]

I was woundering if you guys had experience or advice on how to defeat a wrestler or grappler with using strickly Wing Chun techniques. Some people think you have to study BJJ or Greco Wrestling to be able to defeat a wrestler. But I was wounder if there are any Wing Chun Purist who know how to defeat a western wrestler using strickly Wing Chun tecnhiques and principals?

Are we talking dojo, tournament, sport, or self defense. Granted I don’t want to be taken to the ground, but if I am, I am not going to play their game. I don’t want it to sound easy, and I always think in self defense terms, so I guess I would stick to the rule breakers. “lets keep it clean with no biting, eye gouging, no kicking to the knees, or head butting”. These would be my first chose for self defense. Every art will tell you, that their art, is the best for defeating someone. All I really know is, when they legalize eye strikes in any competition there will be a lot of pain taking place in a hurry. Remember you can take sport and turn it into self defense, but you can’t take self defense and turn it into sport. Just some of my thoughts. J

 

[Nolerama]

I'll assume you'll want to keep the fight standing.

Don't get taken down, and make sure your strikes count towards a knockout, and are faster than the other guy's.

It's not a WC vs grappler thing, it's a striker vs grappler. However, I feel that if the guy manages to take you down, then you might have a problem... So familiarize yourself with some ground technique IMHO.

 

[dungeonworks]

I was woundering if you guys had experience or advice on how to defeat a wrestler or grappler with using strickly Wing Chun techniques. Some people think you have to study BJJ or Greco Wrestling to be able to defeat a wrestler. But I was wounder if there are any Wing Chun Purist who know how to defeat a western wrestler using strickly Wing Chun tecnhiques and principals?

It never hurts to familiarize yourself with what others are doing. Just "assuming" that certain techniques/principles will work against "a grappler" (Generalized) is what gave birth to the Gracie's. All the kung fu, karate, tkd, hapkido...ect they all thought they had the answer untill being humbled in numerous challenge matches. Also, in order to truly apreciate the speed, skill, and athleticism of even a mediocre wrestler you need to get on the mat with him before dangerously assuming. How will you know what to practice for if you don't have an idea what's in a grappler's bag??? When I whent from kickboxing to MMA (just training, not competing), I knew my hands and feet very well and would rather (much rather) slug and kick it out on the feet. I had no illusions of becoming a grappler, but still learned how to do the basic chokes and locks as well as body positioning. Believe me, it was an eye opener. Everyone has a plan untill they get punched in the chin or slammed by a wrestler! LOL These guys can disguise their shots and do them faster....FAR FASTER than what most people believe in their heads while practicing a scenario based flow of techniques.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

All very excellent Advice. I love the input.

dungeonworks Said:"How will you know what to practice for if you don't have an idea what's in a grappler's bag???"

Yoshiyahu: A grappler bag is the black long heavy bag on the floor. You practice trasitioning around the bag. Grabbing the bag. Pulling it etc.Kinda like the bag the mma guy used on the movie "Never Back Down".

Also Dungeonworks doesn't Wing Chun also teach Chokes and Joint Locks?

Nolerama: Don't get taken down, and make sure your strikes count towards a knockout, and are faster than the other guy's.

Yoshiyahu says: Nolerama How do you advoid getting taken to the floor?

seasoned, I am speaking of Tourament,Dojo,sport or friendly challenge match between other martial artist?

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

Self defense situations is very different from sport type situations.

So a meaningful answer could be better formulated if the situation was defined. If not, only general information would be extracted.

Hope that helps.

 

[jarrod]

All very excellent Advice. I love the input.

dungeonworks Said:"How will you know what to practice for if you don't have an idea what's in a grappler's bag???"

Yoshiyahu: A grappler bag is the black long heavy bag on the floor. You practice trasitioning around the bag. Grabbing the bag. Pulling it etc.Kinda like the bag the mma guy used on the movie "Never Back Down".

i think dungeonworks meant "grappler's bag of tricks" rather than a grappling dummy or a floor bag.

Yoshiyahu says: Nolerama How do you advoid getting taken to the floor?

in most cases unless you knock out a grappler before he initiates a takedown, you will not be able to defend his takedown without resorting to grappling techniques. notable exceptions are if he shoots & runs into a knee strike or an uppercut.

from what i know of WC it typically relies on linear attacks. i would recommend not over-committing to a full-on straight blast unless you have knocked his head back with an initial strike. if you blast straight in without breaking his centerline, you will most likely run straight into a double leg takedown. almost all grapplers will instinctively change levels & attack the legs when faced with a high pressure linear attack.

hope this helps,

jf

 

[GBlues]

Well, I think this is an obvious answer.

1. If you have room to move don't let him grab you.

2. If you don't he's probably going to, and then your probably going to the ground. If he's good, more than likely.

Simple direct answer, but it's really not. Grappling is a very natural art I've noticed. It really doesn't take long to pick up some life saving skills in that department. The little bit that I've learned has served me alright in my to-shindo classes. Most of those guys had been doing it longer than me, and I did ok. Not great, but if I had known nothing, I'd of been getting it alot worse. So even a little is better than none. Also, grappling looks slow sometimes in the UFC and other of type matches, but it can go down very fast. Faster than most people think. We went for 2 minute rounds and I'm desperately out of shape, cause after the second bout I couldn't go on. 4 minutes is a long time when your rolling around on the floor with a guy, trying to get a choke or hold or anything like that. Endurance is key. You really should try it out, you'll probably really like it, and be surprised at how fast you can pick some of that stuff up.

 

[seasoned]

i think dungeonworks meant "grappler's bag of tricks" rather than a grappling dummy or a floor bag.



in most cases unless you knock out a grappler before he initiates a takedown, you will not be able to defend his takedown without resorting to grappling techniques. notable exceptions are if he shoots & runs into a knee strike or an uppercut.

from what i know of WC it typically relies on linear attacks. i would recommend not over-committing to a full-on straight blast unless you have knocked his head back with an initial strike. if you blast straight in without breaking his centerline, you will most likely run straight into a double leg takedown. almost all grapplers will instinctively change levels & attack the legs when faced with a high pressure linear attack.

hope this helps,

jf

Call it luck, maybe. What you train is what you will use. Case in point, from an experience I had with a person that did a two leg take down on me. During a class I was teaching, some visitors stopped in to observe my class. The class was at a local college I was teaching at for years. Sure, from time to time people would stop in because this was the only class on campus, and I was always open for new students. This particular night was different though, this night 3-4 young males came in at the middle of my class and were watching and commenting to each other about the class. I stopped my class and tried to interact with them but got a weird feeling about the situation. Toward the end of class, when the sparring part came, I was ask if I wanted to spar, by one of the visitors. I felt this was a challenge and was taken back by the invitation to spar in my own DoJo. I figured once they watched the sparring, that it would be enough to discourage them. At the end of class, we bowed out, class was over, and we were preparing to leave and I was asked again. I am not sure which of us made the mistake, and I do regret the out come, but the worst happened. Once we bowed and squared off I moved first, thinking I could easily discourage him. My leg went up, half power, to feel him out but as my leg returned to the floor he moved in very fast and grabbed both my legs. With no prior training in anything but GoJu, I tucked my chin, grabbed his hair, and by the time we hit the ground my thumb was deep into him eye. The match ended that fast. Proud, no, lucky, maybe. I am a firm believer that what you train at you will use in the heat of battle, not sport, but battle. When my legs were grabbed, and I felt threatened and in danger, it was in someone else’s hands, not mine. The teachings that were drilled into me coming up through the ranks were, never go to the ground, but if you do, then you have a fraction of a second to react before the dreaded ground meets your back. With legs tied up, one hand grabbing his hair, and only one hand free, I did whet instinct taught me, I survived. Out come, lacerated eye, trip to the hospital for him, court action, with the college being sued. End result, my students verified everything, and because of the entire situation, it was deemed self defense, case closed. Did I luck out, yes, in more ways then one. Do I want to grapple, no, I am a GoJu practitioner, and my kata contain just enough to help me at the right times. Do I condemn people that cross train, no way, it just makes me look deeper into my kata, knowing that it is a cruel world out there, and in the blink of an eye, or in this case, the plucking of one, things happen very fast, so train hard, and expect anything, knowing that your mind conditioned reflexes will take over.

 

[jarrod]

Call it luck, maybe. What you train is what you will use. Case in point, from an experience I had with a person that did a two leg take down on me. During a class I was teaching, some visitors stopped in to observe my class. The class was at a local college I was teaching at for years. Sure, from time to time people would stop in because this was the only class on campus, and I was always open for new students. This particular night was different though, this night 3-4 young males came in at the middle of my class and were watching and commenting to each other about the class. I stopped my class and tried to interact with them but got a weird feeling about the situation. Toward the end of class, when the sparring part came, I was ask if I wanted to spar, by one of the visitors. I felt this was a challenge and was taken back by the invitation to spar in my own DoJo. I figured once they watched the sparring, that it would be enough to discourage them. At the end of class, we bowed out, class was over, and we were preparing to leave and I was asked again. I am not sure which of us made the mistake, and I do regret the out come, but the worst happened. Once we bowed and squared off I moved first, thinking I could easily discourage him. My leg went up, half power, to feel him out but as my leg returned to the floor he moved in very fast and grabbed both my legs. With no prior training in anything but GoJu, I tucked my chin, grabbed his hair, and by the time we hit the ground my thumb was deep into him eye. The match ended that fast. Proud, no, lucky, maybe. I am a firm believer that what you train at you will use in the heat of battle, not sport, but battle. When my legs were grabbed, and I felt threatened and in danger, it was in someone else’s hands, not mine. The teachings that were drilled into me coming up through the ranks were, never go to the ground, but if you do, then you have a fraction of a second to react before the dreaded ground meets your back. With legs tied up, one hand grabbing his hair, and only one hand free, I did whet instinct taught me, I survived. Out come, lacerated eye, trip to the hospital for him, court action, with the college being sued. End result, my students verified everything, and because of the entire situation, it was deemed self defense, case closed. Did I luck out, yes, in more ways then one. Do I want to grapple, no, I am a GoJu practitioner, and my kata contain just enough to help me at the right times. Do I condemn people that cross train, no way, it just makes me look deeper into my kata, knowing that it is a cruel world out there, and in the blink of an eye, or in this case, the plucking of one, things happen very fast, so train hard, and expect anything, knowing that your mind conditioned reflexes will take over.

seasoned, thanks for sharing your story, it is very instructive.

i didn't mean to give the impression that grapplers are indestructable, anyone is vulnerable to attacks such as you mentioned, & anyone interested in self-defense should train that sort of fighting. based on your description, however, it sounds as if your opponent may have thought he was in a sport-fighting/sparring situation while you felt you were in a self-defense situation. i think that one lesson to be learned here is that in all sparring situations the rules must be discussed & agreed upon before sparring begins. as a grappler, i wouldn't go into a karate school & expect to be allowed to do takedowns unless it was agreed upon first. but i also wouldn't expect to lose my eye, either.

as i mentioned, i believe it is possible to beat a grappler without being one yourself, but the OP was asking how to do it with strictly WC techniques. i don't know if hair pulling or eye gouging are WC techs, so i was going with what i know about that art. for my part, i have to admit i sometimes get frustrated with the idea some folks have that a poke in the eye, a shot to the groin, or a bite will completely unravel a grappler. as you mentioned in your post, these techniques are instictual, & not off-limits to a grappler either.

an important concept in judo is kazushi, the off-balancing of your opponent before attempting to throw him. good kazushi can be a sophistocated gripping technique, or it can be a simple eye gouge. many grapplers train for sport only, but i think it is a mistake to assume that all grapplers are not fully prepared for life-or-death assaults.

in any case, we are treading ground that has been covered many times. as usual, it will come down to the individual practitioners as much as their respective arts. every approach to fighting has it's advantages & disadvantages.

with all respect,

jf

 

[MJS]

All very excellent Advice. I love the input.

dungeonworks Said:"How will you know what to practice for if you don't have an idea what's in a grappler's bag???"

Yoshiyahu: A grappler bag is the black long heavy bag on the floor. You practice trasitioning around the bag. Grabbing the bag. Pulling it etc.Kinda like the bag the mma guy used on the movie "Never Back Down".

Also Dungeonworks doesn't Wing Chun also teach Chokes and Joint Locks?

Nolerama: Don't get taken down, and make sure your strikes count towards a knockout, and are faster than the other guy's.

Yoshiyahu says: Nolerama How do you advoid getting taken to the floor?

seasoned, I am speaking of Tourament,Dojo,sport or friendly challenge match between other martial artist?

1) Yes, the 'bag' as its been pointed out, is his skill set.

2) Many arts teach jointlocks and chokes. However, as I said in my first post, it may be necessary to look at arts that specialize in a particular area if you want to expand.

3) How do you avoid getting taken down? Work with a grappler. Now, I'm not saying that you have to totally rearrange your technique, but, working with a grappler, will allow you to make some small changes to make the defense even better. Think of it this way...if you can successfully defend a takedown against a grappler, then you should have no problem with a takedown attempt by your average Joe.

 

[hungfistron]

Do I condemn people that cross train, no way, it just makes me look deeper into my kata, knowing that it is a cruel world out there, and in the blink of an eye, or in this case, the plucking of one, things happen very fast, so train hard, and expect anything, knowing that your mind conditioned reflexes will take over.

Well said.


There will always be a technique that will counter another technique in any style or martial art. If you train to depend on one particular favorite to use on a particular style then you may lose more than a mere match. As Seasoned stated its best to train until your techniques are not thought of, but rather they work themselves out of you.


There are no shortcuts to any style, everyone will determine for themselves whether are not a technique will work based on their amount of practice, and effort. Don't assume that any wrestler will beat anyone that just practices standup, and vise versa. It all depends on the situation, and the level of skill of the martial artist.

 

[Si-Je]

Using only WC/WT concepts should suffice.
Rooting in stance is very important and extremely under appreciated.
re-direction/pivot of the opponents force and inertia using WC concepts.
The good old "sprawl" for closer shoots.
of course, attack and defense being the cause and result of the other, speed in response to opponents energy, follow up in striking (and kicking) immediately is cruitial to any WC/WT defense.
And my favorite, the anti-grappling techniques utilized in WT although others may give it little credit, I've seen it in action against grapplers/wrestlers/JKD/BJJ etc. and executed successfully many times. Even experimented with my own personal experiences and training.
I still think that training in an opponent's art/style will only enslave you to their way of fighting, thinking, and stratagy. Cross training can be useful and even fun, but focus on mastery and practical application of your art would be more useful in a fight.

 

[geezer]

Using only WC/WT concepts should suffice....
I still think that training in an opponent's art/style will only enslave you to their way of fighting, thinking, and stratagy. Cross training can be useful and even fun, but focus on mastery and practical application of your art would be more useful in a fight.

Dunno. I take a broad view of what's WT/WC. So yeah, I think it will suffice if applied properly. Still, How are you going to develop good skill with those techniques if you don't train hard with a good grappler? Hell, Emin worked years with Raiza to get his version of WT "anti-grappling" polished. And he's not exactly a "slow learner"!

 

[Si-Je]

Training "with" a good grappler is a good thing. Going to the classes and training exclusively in that style is another thing altogether.

We went to a BJJ seminar a couple of years back and took one of our students. He had one arm. Throughout the entire seminar we had to show him WT/WC anti-grappling techniques because the BJJ and wrestling techniques they were teaching all required two hands/arms.
If you learn to play/fight by those rules, you will be limited to those very grappling "rules" and techniques.

We workout with wrestlers, grapplers, etc, and it's really fun. But, I don't study these techniques and try to utilize them on an opponent. Why would I?
Why use up all that effort and energy to try to force a technique to work for me against giagantic hubbie when WC concepts save my skin everytime? Without the Pain and strain of using brute strength in disguise as leverage?
Over three years of Ju-Jitsu when I was a teenager, and two years of weight training taught me what it truely takes to make those techniques work when you truely need them. I'm a female, I can gain muscle mass, lift weights and all that jazz, but so can a man, and his muscle mass is just bigger/more. Better to stick to WC concepts and use his strength, speed, inertia, and force against him. Re-direction, deflection. And a wee bit of chi helps too. lol!

check these out, instructional seminar demonstrating WT concepts against grappling. Just basic stuff to give you another way of looking at defending such attacks.

Reminds me, I need to practice this stuff more. Having a toddler put a halt to my training with a quickness! lol! (she's already doing WT anti-grappling, bicycle kicking and such. lol! Diaper changes are fun!)

 

[jarrod]

Why use up all that effort and energy to try to force a technique to work for me against giagantic hubbie when WC concepts save my skin everytime? Without the Pain and strain of using brute strength in disguise as leverage?

no offense intended, but this statement shows that you really have no understanding of jujitsu. i think we should be able to have this discussion without being derogatory towards each other's art.

jf

 

[bs10927]

I'm new in Wing Chun but is there sprawling? i thought that was a wrestling concept?

 

[MJS]

Training "with" a good grappler is a good thing. Going to the classes and training exclusively in that style is another thing altogether.

So basically you're against cross training? Of course, in order to fully understand something, it may require a bit more than just working, but thats just my opinion.

We went to a BJJ seminar a couple of years back and took one of our students. He had one arm. Throughout the entire seminar we had to show him WT/WC anti-grappling techniques because the BJJ and wrestling techniques they were teaching all required two hands/arms.
If you learn to play/fight by those rules, you will be limited to those very grappling "rules" and techniques.

Well, this is where we need to be able to take the material and adapt it to what our base art is.

We workout with wrestlers, grapplers, etc, and it's really fun. But, I don't study these techniques and try to utilize them on an opponent. Why would I?
Why use up all that effort and energy to try to force a technique to work for me against giagantic hubbie when WC concepts save my skin everytime? Without the Pain and strain of using brute strength in disguise as leverage?
Over three years of Ju-Jitsu when I was a teenager, and two years of weight training taught me what it truely takes to make those techniques work when you truely need them. I'm a female, I can gain muscle mass, lift weights and all that jazz, but so can a man, and his muscle mass is just bigger/more. Better to stick to WC concepts and use his strength, speed, inertia, and force against him. Re-direction, deflection. And a wee bit of chi helps too. lol!

And this is why technique IMO, is more important than strength. I love to roll with people who try to 'fight' everything I do. I just relax and it frustrates the hell out of them. Then I look for my opening.

check these out, instructional seminar demonstrating WT concepts against grappling. Just basic stuff to give you another way of looking at defending such attacks.

Reminds me, I need to practice this stuff more. Having a toddler put a halt to my training with a quickness! lol! (she's already doing WT anti-grappling, bicycle kicking and such. lol! Diaper changes are fun!)

I'll have to watch those when I get home. Youtube is on the no-no list at work.